Comics The Official ROGUE Discussion Thread

[Canemacar]

I'm not sure I've discussed Sam here in the X-Men thread, either way, he's too young right now to lead a team full of people that are older than him.

Sam and Rogue are the same age.

Bobby might have the cooler head (although that's not even necessarily true, he's shown quite a recklessness in his day),

He's also the one who was always talking Rogue down off the ledge during the 90's when she started throwing tantrums.

but he doesn't command the respect of the others on the team like Rogue would and does.

Rogue commanding the respect like she does is the result of Carey's bias. Historically, Rogue's been a kind of brat and people don't hold those kinds of people in high regard.

And yes, the team is custom made. Any team is. Don't you think Astonishing/Uncanny/X-Treme etc. weren't put together in such a manner that only one character was logical as leader, or to create maximum conflict?

Actually, no. Often times, writers only get to pick a few members of their cast and the others are added to give the characters a place to be. It's very rare for a writer to get to pick his entire team like Carey did.

Rogue's the best choice for this ragtag team.

Not by a longshot.

 

[Harlekin]

Sam and Rogue are the same age.

Since when? That makes absolutely no sense. Rogue should be late twenties/early thirties. Sam should be in his early twenties. Is this a Carey-retcon, because that makes no sense?

He's also the one who was always talking Rogue down off the ledge during the 90's when she started throwing tantrums.

Which is exactly why he would work well in this capacity. Moral support to Rogue. He's not the kind of person to lead the team, and he's shown to be quite a hothead in battle. When he actually thinks about it, he's got a cool head.

Rogue commanding the respect like she does is the result of Carey's bias. Historically, Rogue's been a kind of brat and people don't hold those kinds of people in high regard.

It was good enough for established leaders Nightcrawler and Wolverine to relinquish command to her back in the Revolution days. She's grown as a person quite a bit since her first appearance. Besides that, half of these people are her friends (Cable, Iceman, Cannonball) or people she can keep in line through threatening (Lady M, Sabretooth). Karima doesn't know her and Mystique, well... she's Mystique.

Actually, no. Often times, writers only get to pick a few members of their cast and the others are added to give the characters a place to be. It's very rare for a writer to get to pick his entire team like Carey did.

Not necessarily true. Writers like Austen and such have always gotten the hand-me-downs, but people like Carey, Whedon, Claremont, Morrison, they get their pick. Considering the "giving the characters a place to be" has only really been in effect since the third X-Men book, that's more in favour of people picking their own teams than it isn't.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

I still don't get how people can *not* aknowledge Carey made an arbitrary biased call. t:

As if that nano-sentinel thingy wasn't unabashed character worship. That would be like Kitty gunning down Emma in AXM #18 and the boys just smiling and clapping.

Gotta give it to Whedon, for all the love he bears for Kitty, when's she wrong, other people act and the plot unfolds accordingly.

But, hey, there's still the small probability of her being demoted for losing Sabes. But then again, the 'pity/woe is her' thingy might prevent a realistic command decision from being made.

 

[Canemacar]

Since when? That makes absolutely no sense. Rogue should be late twenties/early thirties. Sam should be in his early twenties. Is this a Carey-retcon, because that makes no sense?

Don't remember where it was established, but Rogue's in her very early 20's.

Which is exactly why he would work well in this capacity. Moral support to Rogue. He's not the kind of person to lead the team, and he's shown to be quite a hothead in battle. When he actually thinks about it, he's got a cool head.

The leader shouldn't *need* someone to talk them down off the ledge.

It was good enough for established leaders Nightcrawler and Wolverine to relinquish command to her back in the Revolution days. She's grown as a person quite a bit since her first appearance. Besides that, half of these people are her friends (Cable, Iceman, Cannonball) or people she can keep in line through threatening (Lady M, Sabretooth). Karima doesn't know her and Mystique, well... she's Mystique.

1: The Revolution days also had Gambit leading a team and unlike rogue fan's, I can acknowledge when my favorite has no business leading a team.

2: She's been a perpetual child for decades.

3: A leader isn't supposed to lead because the troops are personal friends of the leader. There's a reason the military prevents it's officers from fratrenizing with the enlisted men.

4: Intimidating people to obey never works out, as we have seen thus far and in solicits and spoilers.

Not necessarily true. Writers like Austen and such have always gotten the hand-me-downs, but people like Carey, Whedon, Claremont, Morrison, they get their pick. Considering the "giving the characters a place to be" has only really been in effect since the third X-Men book, that's more in favour of people picking their own teams than it isn't.

Not true. Even the Whedons, Morrisons and Carey's don't get characters they want. Whedon wanted to use Storm, Morrison wanted to use Rogue (he was going to kill her off and replace her with a new character similar to the Evo version), and Carey wanted Psylocke.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Not true. Even the Whedons, Morrisons and Carey's don't get characters they want. Whedon wanted to use Storm, Morrison wanted to use Rogue (he was going to kill her off and replace her with a new character similar to the Evo version), and Carey wanted Psylocke.

Am genuinely intrigued. What would've been Whedon's roster had he had his way?

 

[Harlekin]

Don't remember where it was established, but Rogue's in her very early 20's.

Yeah, not buying it. That's simply not canonically possible.

The leader shouldn't *need* someone to talk them down off the ledge.

True, but that doesn't mean it isn't handy to have moral support. That also completely ignores the fact that Iceman has no business leading this team. He hasn't got the chops for it.

1: The Revolution days also had Gambit leading a team and unlike rogue fan's, I can acknowledge when my favorite has no business leading a team.

In the context of those stories, it actually made quite a bit of sense for Gambit to lead the team, as they mostly delved into missions involving thieves or stuff like that. What's his expertise? Being a thief.

2: She's been a perpetual child for decades.

I respectfully disagree.

3: A leader isn't supposed to lead because the troops are personal friends of the leader. There's a reason the military prevents it's officers from fratrenizing with the enlisted men.

But it's quite bloody handy. They'll follow her lead because they trust her to make the right decision. That should say enough.

4: Intimidating people to obey never works out, as we have seen thus far and in solicits and spoilers.

Of course, but with these people, that's really the only tactic. There's no permanent solution to that problem, and neither Cable, Cannonball or Iceman could've done that any better. Cable could be a tad more intimidating, but he doesn't want to lead.

Not true. Even the Whedons, Morrisons and Carey's don't get characters they want. Whedon wanted to use Storm, Morrison wanted to use Rogue (he was going to kill her off and replace her with a new character similar to the Evo version), and Carey wanted Psylocke.

One person they couldn't get, and because editorial had greater plans with them. They still had their pick of the rest of the team, and that's what matters. Carey didn't get Psylocke because Claremont wanted her, and he 'outranks' him on that matter. They mostly get their pick.

 

[Canemacar]

Yeah, not buying it. That's simply not canonically possible.

You do realize that your selective acceptance of canon is only hurting your argument that Rogue is a good leader based on her past and personality, right?

True, but that doesn't mean it isn't handy to have moral support. That also completely ignores the fact that Iceman has no business leading this team. He hasn't got the chops for it.

He did okay during OZT I believe it was. Anyway, Sam has a lot of experience in black ops outfits AND has been trained to lead.

In the context of those stories, it actually made quite a bit of sense for Gambit to lead the team, as they mostly delved into missions involving thieves or stuff like that. What's his expertise? Being a thief.

He's also secretive, untrustworthy, manipulative, and prone to doing his own thing regardless of what the team is doing. There's also the fact that the X-men hate him and wouldn't even listen to him when he had no reason to lie. Not to mention that Cable and Storm were both more experienced at leading.

I respectfully disagree.

The published comics respectfully disagrees.

But it's quite bloody handy. They'll follow her lead because they trust her to make the right decision. That should say enough.

1: She *hasn't* made any right decisions.

2: Given the way she was acting a mere week before in comic time, it's unbeliavble that ANYONE would follow her instructions.

Of course, but with these people, that's really the only tactic. There's no permanent solution to that problem, and neither Cable, Cannonball or Iceman could've done that any better. Cable could be a tad more intimidating, but he doesn't want to lead.

No, the other tactic is to NOT PUT SUPERVILLAINS ON THE TEAM.

One person they couldn't get, and because editorial had greater plans with them. They still had their pick of the rest of the team, and that's what matters. Carey didn't get Psylocke because Claremont wanted her, and he 'outranks' him on that matter. They mostly get their pick.

Claremont planned his entire first year of X-Treme around Beast, but got told he couldn't use the character at the last minute and had to substitute the first year with the Diary stories.

 

[Harlekin]

You do realize that your selective acceptance of canon is only hurting your argument that Rogue is a good leader based on her past and personality, right?

Considering you haven't actually given proof of this statement on Rogue's age, no not really. It's quite impossible that Rogue be in her early twenties when all her peers from five years ago aren't. Now, if Nightcrawler, Colossus, Storm etc. were in their early twenties... Oh wait, that also isn't possible, since they were at least 18-20 when they became X-Men, and it's been at least 7 years.

He did okay during OZT I believe it was. Anyway, Sam has a lot of experience in black ops outfits AND has been trained to lead.

He did okay in OZT, and he does show potential for leadership, but it's very unrefined right now. The only reason he got the others to get along during OZT was because he was literally the only viable choice.

He's also secretive, untrustworthy, manipulative, and prone to doing his own thing regardless of what the team is doing. There's also the fact that the X-men hate him and wouldn't even listen to him when he had no reason to lie. Not to mention that Cable and Storm were both more experienced at leading.

The team of X-Men then didn't really hate him. It had Jean, Storm, Beast and Cable. Storm was a close friend, Beast didn't have much reason to dislike Beast, nor did Cable. Jean was reeling from Scott's death, and she never had much of a problem with Gambit either, so no. Cable had more experience, but in the thieving department, and Storm was (as Claremont explained) more focussed on helping Jean and oh yeah... trusted Gambit.

The published comics respectfully disagrees.

The published comics, huh? So stuff like X-Treme X-Men? Right.

1: She *hasn't* made any right decisions.

In your opinion.

2: Given the way she was acting a mere week before in comic time, it's unbeliavble that ANYONE would follow her instructions.

Still haven't showed how anyone else is more qualified.

No, the other tactic is to NOT PUT SUPERVILLAINS ON THE TEAM.

It's either that or the cage, and y'know, the X-Men have a history in letting supervillains on the team. Wasn't Rogue one? Oh yeah, that's right.

Claremont planned his entire first year of X-Treme around Beast, but got told he couldn't use the character at the last minute and had to substitute the first year with the Diary stories.

Again, he got outranked by Morrison. He was able to handpick the rest of the team.

 

[Canemacar]

Considering you haven't actually given proof of this statement on Rogue's age, no not really. It's quite impossible that Rogue be in her early twenties when all her peers from five years ago aren't. Now, if Nightcrawler, Colossus, Storm etc. were in their early twenties... Oh wait, that also isn't possible, since they were at least 18-20 when they became X-Men, and it's been at least 7 years.

I recall Rogue being stated to be only a year or two older than Kitty, in X-Treme I believe, and she is in the 18-20 range.

The team of X-Men then didn't really hate him. It had Jean, Storm, Beast and Cable. Storm was a close friend, Beast didn't have much reason to dislike Beast, nor did Cable. Jean was reeling from Scott's death, and she never had much of a problem with Gambit either, so no. Cable had more experience, but in the thieving department, and Storm was (as Claremont explained) more focussed on helping Jean and oh yeah... trusted Gambit.

1: The X-men hated him. It was stated.

2: Storm couldn't be bothered to go back to Antarctica, Beast turned a blind eye to the incident, Jean flat out refused to trust him when the team was assembled, and Cable was just doing whatever.

The published comics, huh? So stuff like X-Treme X-Men? Right.

Or anything from the 90's where she was a complete wreck.

In your opinion.

By the standards of common sense.

Still haven't showed how anyone else is more qualified.

Yes, I have. Sam has been *trained to lead black ops units* for God's sake and Cable's a war vet.

It's either that or the cage, and y'know, the X-Men have a history in letting supervillains on the team. Wasn't Rogue one? Oh yeah, that's right.

1: They could've handed him over to O*N*E* and the MASSIVE SENTINEL GUARDS.

2: Sabertooth and Lady M are completely unrepentant, and Mystiqe is a known snake in the grass. Thats far cry from a teenaged brat going bat***** crazy and needing help.

Again, he got outranked by Morrison. He was able to handpick the rest of the team.

He wanted to use Kitty to a greater extent, but the editors refused.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

By the standards of common sense.

Amen.

That would like me saying Cyke has never been defined by Jean and his abandonment issue. Or that he'd have a right to give seminars on how to be the best husband/father one can be. t:

He wanted to use Kitty to a greater extent, but the editors refused.

Really???

God bless the editors. Like a thousand times over.


And regarding X-Treme thingy. Oh, come on, does *anyone* actually aknowledge whatever Claremont writes nowaday??? The guy's known for tweaking his leading ladies into uberdom. That's his bloody signature card. You gotta take some of it with a grain of salt. t:

 

[Harlekin]

I recall Rogue being stated to be only a year or two older than Kitty, in X-Treme I believe, and she is in the 18-20 range.

I find this hard to believe, since Rogue would have had to be 15/16 when she joined the X-Men. That was quite obviously not the case.

1: The X-men hated him. It was stated.

How can you state something for an entire group? They obviously didn't, since he was pretty easily reintegrated in the group. The Revolution was even later than that.

2: Storm couldn't be bothered to go back to Antarctica, Beast turned a blind eye to the incident, Jean flat out refused to trust him when the team was assembled, and Cable was just doing whatever.

And yet none of them showed any express dislike for Gambit, and they took him back on the team pretty easily, didn't they? You're taking events and acting as if the time between them didn't exist. The Revolution team was at least a year (more like two/three) after Gambit was abandoned. That's a long time.

Or anything from the 90's where she was a complete wreck.

I was pointing to X-Treme X-Men as the title where she wasn't that big of a wreck at all. She was pretty well-adjusted actually, except from that short stint where she had all of the powers she had ever absorbed. Even then, she seemed quite in control.

Yes, I have. Sam has been *trained to lead black ops units* for God's sake and Cable's a war vet.

And I've explained countless times that although Sam will eventually be the überleader, he's not right now. He wouldn't be able to lead this team, because he doesn't have the chops yet. These people aren't going to follow him into battle. Cable doesn't want to lead and is basically a part-time member of the squad.

1: They could've handed him over to O*N*E* and the MASSIVE SENTINEL GUARDS.

Because the last time Sabes handed up in hands of the government, they put him on X-Factor. Golden rule in superhero fiction? Don't trust the government.

2: Sabertooth and Lady M are completely unrepentant, and Mystiqe is a known snake in the grass. Thats far cry from a teenaged brat going bat***** crazy and needing help.

Sabretooth spends most of his time in lock-up and Mystique has shown wanting to redeem herself. It's naive to believe, but not out of the ordinary. I'll admit that there's really no reason to have Lady M on the team.

He wanted to use Kitty to a greater extent, but the editors refused.

Even then, he still got use of her, and was still able to handpick 90% of his team.

 

[Canemacar]

I find this hard to believe, since Rogue would have had to be 15/16 when she joined the X-Men. That was quite obviously not the case.

It's called a retcon. Get used to it.

How can you state something for an entire group? They obviously didn't, since he was pretty easily reintegrated in the group. The Revolution was even later than that.

Because claremont often uss the omniscient narrator literary device and said narrator stated that the X-men, and mutantkind in general, hate him.

And yet none of them showed any express dislike for Gambit, and they took him back on the team pretty easily, didn't they? You're taking events and acting as if the time between them didn't exist. The Revolution team was at least a year (more like two/three) after Gambit was abandoned. That's a long time.

A lot of the things written in the mid and late 90's were crap. However, it was stated that the X-men hate him; a view that was reinforced during Gambit's ongoing.

I was pointing to X-Treme X-Men as the title where she wasn't that big of a wreck at all. She was pretty well-adjusted actually, except from that short stint where she had all of the powers she had ever absorbed. Even then, she seemed quite in control.

But before and after that brief period, she was a total wreck. Do I really need to point out the obvious here?

And I've explained countless times that although Sam will eventually be the überleader, he's not right now. He wouldn't be able to lead this team, because he doesn't have the chops yet. These people aren't going to follow him into battle. Cable doesn't want to lead and is basically a part-time member of the squad.

1: He *is* an uber leader and has proven it in X-Force and New Mutants I think it was. He isn't a shy, bumbling yokel and hasn't been for a long time.

2: Cable took over pretty handily during the recnt arc and before when Rogue got kidnapped.

Because the last time Sabes handed up in hands of the government, they put him on X-Factor. Golden rule in superhero fiction? Don't trust the government.

The other golden rule? don't trust the pathological liar, the bloodthirsty sociopath, and the spiteful villainess.

Sabretooth spends most of his time in lock-up and Mystique has shown wanting to redeem herself. It's naive to believe, but not out of the ordinary. I'll admit that there's really no reason to have Lady M on the team.

1: A lot of good it did them. Have you read 199 yet? I have.

2: Mystique has played this card before.

Even then, he still got use of her, and was still able to handpick 90% of his team.

He also got blocked from using Cassandra as a villain. He was going to link her to Vargas in a sort of mind/body duality thingy.

 

[bns]

What do you *think* they'll say??? It's a BAD thing.

Why don't you just say it's a bad thing. You don't have books on martial artists/psycologists etc. Why pull this out as proof? Are you not confident in your own OPINION?

Common sense, hon. Figures a Rogue wouldn't aknowledge that.

You have implied this several times in different threrads that fans of Rogue aren't capable of common sense. That's not really productive in a discussion. If we are discussing, do you have to be right? Are you really unable to see the other side of the debate? Saying "Rogue fans have no common sense" is a really cheap way to win a debate. So since I disagree with you, I have no valid points? That's weak....

Did you even READ Supernovas??? That was the OBVIOUS POINT of the whole arc. How could anyone have possibly missed that?

Okay, I don't think you know what subtext means. Carey made Rogue the leader, that was not hidden in the subtext it was an actual storyline where Cyclops said, "Rogue, lead a strikepforce." Carey has written Rogue very well and he does indeed like the Rogue character. BUT, for you to pull this Mary-Sue crap and call it an Uber-Love fest is silly and wreaks of a hater who can't handle that Rogue had a spotlight issue.

I have asked you to point where Carey built up Rogue while making the others look bad. I mentioned he showed her not always being right. Furthermore, the other characters have had some great moments. Carey may LOVE Rogue, but he really hasn't played favorites.

If you point is that he got rid of the whining, well that was really an arbitrary trait that had nothing to do with Rogue, but bad writing. So what, how does that make her UBER, except in your opinion.

And for the record, the point of the last two arcs was to shove down tragedy down her throat and build up the angst.

I believe it was to explore her powers and take her back to basics. Again, only the first chapter. Wait for the story to be over, or don't. Just drop the book, you obvioulsy can't handle it.

No, that you wouldn't get subtext in a comic book if it bit you in the a$$ 50 times. And not *getting* that I was painfully obviously refering to the subtext of the book doesn't exactly your case. t:

Oh, I get subtext. I am not so sure you do.

Whenever did I say *ANY* of those things?

It's what you are implying (subtext) here:

All I said was:

- he has a ***** for Rogue. Which he totally does. He said she's one his favs and so far the arcs have been custom-made )big picture and plot-wise) for her.
- other people should've been leaders: ask anyone ONE year ago if Rogue would've made sense as a leader. Not many would've said 'yes'.
- his crew makes no sense whatsoever: Rogue doesn't trust THREE of them. That's HALF of her subordinate. That kind of stuff belong in fanfic, not canon.

No, not really.

You aknowledged he buffes up/tweaks women to his liking and then used his writing in an argument as if it was the most sensical/unbiased thing ever.

Either that's irony or you being stubborn/clueless on purpose.

That's still not irony.

Also, I was using CC's characterization of Rogue in X-Treme cause she was returned to emotional stability that has been canon (whether you like it or not, whether it is Mary-Sue or not) since.

Two points to think on:

1. If you think Rogue is a Mary Sue, that is completely fine. You are entitled, but I don't see it. I did think CC wrote her like one in X-Treme. However, I think you threw this out to discredit solid characterization. There is a difference. Maybe if you could stop labeling me and see I am merely pointing out some weaknesses in your arguement.

2. Your statement that Rogue cannot lead cause she is emotionally unstable and has a short fuse isn't likely to change. So the fact that Rogue has lead and done so in a very entertaining and well written comic also isn't going to change. Perhaps dropping Carey's X-Men might be better for you. It obvioulsy upsets you that a character you do not like is being written well.

 

[Harlekin]

It's called a retcon. Get used to it.

No, that's called a mistake.

Because claremont often uss the omniscient narrator literary device and said narrator stated that the X-men, and mutantkind in general, hate him.

Claremont also has a tendency to overexaggerate. Besides that, it makes no sense, and it doesn't work, since they obviously didn't all hate him. That's the fun thing in comics. You've got things being said and things being shown. It was shown that not all of the X-Men hated Gambit. I'm not going to dignify the "mutantkind in general".

A lot of the things written in the mid and late 90's were crap. However, it was stated that the X-men hate him; a view that was reinforced during Gambit's ongoing.

'Stated' would be saying Hulk is a class 100. He's stated to be that strong. A gross generalizing and overexaggerating statement? Nah. They got along fine with him. Again, what is shown over what is being said.

But before and after that brief period, she was a total wreck. Do I really need to point out the obvious here?

She was pretty stable during the Revolution (even during the incident with that Skrull girl), and was even more stable afterwards. If one thing, being powerless for a while really helped her out.

1: He *is* an uber leader and has proven it in X-Force and New Mutants I think it was. He isn't a shy, bumbling yokel and hasn't been for a long time.

Look, I love Sam, but he isn't there yet. An uberleader commands respect on the level of Captain America, and most anyone will defer to that kind of leader. Until Sam has actually lead a team that isn't composed of his friends, a case can be made for him being on that level. I never said he was shy or bumbling. He just isn't the position yet to able to command a team like this. As it is, he needs a little more experience right now.

2: Cable took over pretty handily during the recnt arc and before when Rogue got kidnapped.

Necessity. As he also stated, it wasn't really his team, and he had his own things going on. Of course, he's a good leader. Some folks don't want to be the leader though.

The other golden rule? don't trust the pathological liar, the bloodthirsty sociopath, and the spiteful villainess.

Rather with the X-Men than with the government.

1: A lot of good it did them. Have you read 199 yet? I have.

Sabretooth screws them over royally, right? It was never meant to work out from a plot perspective, but the decision to keep him around and on a tight leash isn't a bad idea.

2: Mystique has played this card before.

True, true. I wouldn't trust Mystique, but that might be a little harder for Rogue, her surrogate daughter and all.

He also got blocked from using Cassandra as a villain. He was going to link her to Vargas in a sort of mind/body duality thingy.

What's the point of these examples, exactly? There will always be editorial interfering. That's their job. Nine times out of ten, when it comes to things like team structures, popular writers get to do what they want.

 

[Canemacar]

No, that's called a mistake.

Given the *very* fluid nature of time in the Marvel Universe, calling it a mistake is a questionable tactic. At worst, it was simply a clarification of her age; which hadn't been mentioned in over a decade real time.

Claremont also has a tendency to overexaggerate. Besides that, it makes no sense, and it doesn't work, since they obviously didn't all hate him. That's the fun thing in comics. You've got things being said and things being shown. It was shown that not all of the X-Men hated Gambit. I'm not going to dignify the "mutantkind in general".

1: Just because they weren't chasing him with torches and pitchforks doesn't mean they didn't hate him. Read his ongoing; it expounds on the point. For example, he never felt welcome in the mansion again after the Massacre and lived in the boathouse because it was out of the way and secluded.

2: Of course mutant-kind would despise him once his involvement in the Massacre got out. He'd be seen as a Benedict Arnold, only worse.

'Stated' would be saying Hulk is a class 100. He's stated to be that strong. A gross generalizing and overexaggerating statement? Nah. They got along fine with him. Again, what is shown over what is being said.

It was both shown and said. Hell, none of them could be bothered to go back to Antarctica; not even Storm or Beast.

She was pretty stable during the Revolution (even during the incident with that Skrull girl), and was even more stable afterwards. If one thing, being powerless for a while really helped her out.

And she was unstable for two years real time after that. And for ten solid years before that.

Look, I love Sam, but he isn't there yet. An uberleader commands respect on the level of Captain America, and most anyone will defer to that kind of leader. Until Sam has actually lead a team that isn't composed of his friends, a case can be made for him being on that level. I never said he was shy or bumbling. He just isn't the position yet to able to command a team like this. As it is, he needs a little more experience right now.

He's a lot better suited for it than rogue.

Necessity. As he also stated, it wasn't really his team, and he had his own things going on. Of course, he's a good leader. Some folks don't want to be the leader though.

Cable? Not wanting to be leader? Thats like Logan not wanting to fight!

Rather with the X-Men than with the government.

Yeah. because that worked out so well in the past.

Sabretooth screws them over royally, right? It was never meant to work out from a plot perspective, but the decision to keep him around and on a tight leash isn't a bad idea.

Tell me; what hapened the last time they kept creed around on a "tight-leash"?

True, true. I wouldn't trust Mystique, but that might be a little harder for Rogue, her surrogate daughter and all.

Mystique stabbed her, pulled something right out of Jerry Springer, AND killed Moria, all in the last few years.

What's the point of these examples, exactly? There will always be editorial interfering. That's their job. Nine times out of ten, when it comes to things like team structures, popular writers get to do what they want.

Not at all; the X-books are notorious for how much the editors micromanage things.

 

[emmymae]

I'm with bns, Spark, Harlekin, and Rogue's Hand. No matter how I try to argue certain people are determined to prove me wrong as well. Neither Gambit nor Rogue are to blame for each other's problems. I have seen Rogue, and Gambit, do some amazing things and say such beautiful things to each other, it has about given me tears of joy. Rogue has such a deep heart and has dealt with her issues (Gambit too) and is developing into one heck of a woman. She always was. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Rogue's Hand]

I'm with bns, Spark, Harlekin, and Rogue's Hand. No matter how I try to argue certain people are determined to prove me wrong as well. Neither Gambit nor Rogue are to blame for each other's problems. I have seen Rogue, and Gambit, do some amazing things and say such beautiful things to each other, it has about given me tears of joy. Rogue has such a deep heart and has dealt with her issues (Gambit too) and is developing into one heck of a woman. She always was. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

It's sickening beyond belief.
I've never hated Gambit for being himself.
I actually like him, but being that I've been watching their
relationship, I must say that it's made her look more like the punk.
Gambit was always the "Rico Suave" type. The ladies man.
For Christ sake there wasn't one moment I didn't see him
pull his signature charm on any random chick. He's being himself
which is fine, but don't turn Rogue into more of a nut case then
she already is by teasing the relationship topic.
Do you know what it's like to not be able to get laid? LOL!
A kiss must be heaven for Rogue to experience, and even
now that is completely taken from her! Gambit did love Rogue!
But that doesn't mean he wasn't willing to not love somebody else!
Charm is his middle name! Same can be said about Rogue and her flirting!
But don't knock my favorite character because yours is not
being depicted a certain way.
You think I'm not pissed Monet is in X-Factor and not in this team? LOL
I'm not throwing tantrums bad mouthing just for clout, LOL
I'm 25 years old and have been browsing the forum for a while
and I realize there would be no debate if different opinons were expressed
but gyot tammit, LOL The hating is in fact blatant. I'm loving
what Carey is doing. One touch and your dead! Think about it!
How many other people in # 200 are gonna know that?
He got these headless chickens running a muck
about Rogue getting the spotlight.
She hasn't even gotten her new
powers yet and they're already loosing it t:

I love it! LMAO!!!!!!

"Speak the wrong words b___h and you will get TOUCHED"

Hahahaha! ***Spits out Kool-Aid all over keyboard***Bwahaha

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Why don't you just say it's a bad thing. You don't have books on martial artists/psycologists etc. Why pull this out as proof? Are you not confident in your own OPINION?

The hell...?

We're trying to make POINTS. Our opinion ALONE isn't worth jacks**t. If you'll notice, Can, IAmLegend usually refer to the canon interpretation of Rogue that has lasted the longest and has defined the character the most. Black on white. We're not making this s**t up.

My point here was that anyone knowing anything about combat and psychology would agree that a short fuse and/or temper is NOT a good thing. You know, the whole being rational/objective thingy.

Hon, you *have* to stop shooting yourself in the foot.

You have implied this several times in different threrads that fans of Rogue aren't capable of common sense. That's not really productive in a discussion. If we are discussing, do you have to be right? Are you really unable to see the other side of the debate? Saying "Rogue fans have no common sense" is a really cheap way to win a debate. So since I disagree with you, I have no valid points? That's weak....

You're denying the fact that Carey has it bad for Rogue and that it shows in his writing. That would be like saying Whedon doesn't have it bad for Kitty nor made AXM mostly about her.

You're refusing to aknowledge a *fact*. Whether it's a good or bad thing is a matter of opinion. But it's still there for all to see.

Okay, I don't think you know what subtext means. Carey made Rogue the leader, that was not hidden in the subtext it was an actual storyline where Cyclops said, "Rogue, lead a strikepforce."

The subtext was about character worship, not her leading the goddamn team. Why the hell would I even think *that* would qualify as subtext?

Carey has written Rogue very well and he does indeed like the Rogue character. BUT, for you to pull this Mary-Sue crap and call it an Uber-Love fest is silly and wreaks of a hater who can't handle that Rogue had a spotlight issue.

I never said she was a full-fledged Mary Sue. I said she had the angst/drama angle going on for her, which is an incarnation of said archetype. And, amusingly enough, most likely what the next year will be all about for her.

I have asked you to point where Carey built up Rogue while making the others look bad.

I never said anything about anyone but Cyke, Hank and Emma because they were *right* and she basically told them off. Carey never adressed the fact that it was poor decision-making. Not only that, but she looked good while at it.

As I've said before, that would be like Kitty gunning down Emma Frost (*wrong* decision) in AXM 18 and the guys not saying anything (her getting away with it). You can't possibly NOT see the similarity between the two scenes.

Now, we never said Mike wouldn't make it right, by, let's say, having her lose the leadership of her team. We're just really sceptical it'll play out that way.

I mentioned he showed her not always being right. Furthermore, the other characters have had some great moments. Carey may LOVE Rogue, but he really hasn't played favorites.

The last two arcs were custom-made for her and the trials she has to go through!!! How does that NOT qualify as playing favorites????!!!!

That would be like saying Whedon's run wasn't mostly custom-made for Kitty.

And for the love of god, playing favorites isn't JUST about a$$-kicking.

If you point is that he got rid of the whining, well that was really an arbitrary trait that had nothing to do with Rogue, but bad writing. So what, how does that make her UBER, except in your opinion.

The point isn't about goddamn uberness. It's about arbitrarily getting rid of a major flaw that has defined the character for DECADES.

Here's an example: Scott and Emma have issues in about every book. Writers didn't just NOT aknowledge the ghost of Jean for kicks. Ignoring Rogue's temper is basically the same thing.

Also, I was using CC's characterization of Rogue in X-Treme cause she was returned to emotional stability that has been canon (whether you like it or not, whether it is Mary-Sue or not) since.

My point was that NOBODY but the hardcore fans of CC's muses/dream-wives aknowledge his characterization as sensical and/or not insanely biased.

You know, the fact that the x-office gives him book which have next to none impact in the big picture just *might* be a hint that even the editors aren't exactly wow-ed by his material.

 

[bns]

The hell...?

Indeed, I thought you had actual valid points that were worthy of debate, but so far it's been pretty shallow and rather base.

We're trying to make POINTS. Our opinion ALONE isn't worth jacks**t. If you'll notice, Can, IAmLegend usually refer to the canon interpretation of Rogue that has lasted the longest and has defined the character the most. Black on white. We're not making this s**t up.

Well from X-Treme on has been quite some time and it's canon now. You are losing a lot of points here. From X-Treme on is CANON and just cause you don't like it doesn't make it so. "I'm sorry I didn't see the stop sign officer so it's not there!"

My point here was that anyone knowing anything about combat and psychology would agree that a short fuse and/or temper is NOT a good thing. You know, the whole being rational/objective thingy.

But see you are making references, without any way to substantiate them. You can't say four of five dentists think Rogue's a Mary Sue without a reference to the paper, report, essay. Hell I could claim that Psychologists actually say that persons of a more emotional disposition make better leaders. Infact, I will say that. According the Bruce Lee in his Essay on the Martial Artist, a fighter who's soul is more moved from the heart rather than the head makes for exceptional leadership skills. I rest my case! t:

Hon, you *have* to stop shooting yourself in the foot.

Doll, I don't think your condescending assinine remarks make you look better. You don't make points, it's more a lot of hot air.

You're denying the fact that Carey has it bad for Rogue and that it shows in his writing. That would be like saying Whedon doesn't have it bad for Kitty nor made AXM mostly about her. You're refusing to aknowledge a *fact*. Whether it's a good or bad thing is a matter of opinion. But it's still there for all to see.

No I never denied Carey likes Rogue. Reread my posts. I denied that he has transformed her into a Mary Sue and is giving into character worship. In order for Rogue to be a Mary-Sue or for Carey to give in to character worship she has to by definition make everyone else look bad. She has to save the day.

The points you make, that Carey is a Rogue fan and that he has given her a storyline to explore her powers, do not be definition show character worship. It's just a dramtic story he has set for a character he likes.

And just so you a clear on what a "Mary Sue" is:

Mary Sue is any original or deeply altered character who represents a slice of his/her creator's own ego; s/he is treasured by his/her creator but only rarely by anyone else. More negatively, a Mary Sue is a primadonna (usually but not always badly-written) who saps life and realism out of every other character around, taking over the plot and bending canon to serve his/her selfish purposes.

The subtext was about character worship, not her leading the goddamn team. Why the hell would I even think *that* would qualify as subtext?

Now tell me how the subtext, showed the above. And please, spare us the already refuted "He changed her from being hot-tempered to a leader" point cause I already showed you that was not true. He kepts her hot-temper and he made her a leader. You even said she still jumps down people's throat. So you know Carey has not changed this.

I never said she was a full-fledged Mary Sue. I said she had the angst/drama angle going on for her, which is an incarnation of said archetype. And, amusingly enough, most likely what the next year will be all about for her.

So he is doing character worship, but she isn't a Mary-Sue? That is impossible. He is either doing both or neither. And again, a good dramatic story does not a Mary-Sue make.

I never said anything about anyone but Cyke, Hank and Emma because they were *right* and she basically told them off. Carey never adressed the fact that it was poor decision-making. Not only that, but she looked good while at it.

The only one she was smart to was Scott. She never told off Emma or Hank regarding the nano-sentinels. I don't even think Emma had an opinion. Moreover, she looked to Emma for how to deal with Creed in the opeining and it was Bobby who did the He-Man power play. Again, I think you are more blinded by unreasonable character Hate, that Carey is with character-worship.

As I've said before, that would be like Kitty gunning down Emma Frost (*wrong* decision) in AXM 18 and the guys not saying anything (her getting away with it). You can't possibly NOT see the similarity between the two scenes.

Rogue had no scenes in all of Carey's run that was as plain *****-ass cool as the one Whedon wrote for Kitty in AXM. And I am no Kitty fan, but even I acknowledge how damn awesome that scene was!

The last two arcs were custom-made for her and the trials she has to go through!!! How does that NOT qualify as playing favorites????!!!!

God forbid that Carey focus some story to Rogue since the next arc will be all about Bobby and Sam. OMG, Carey has Sam-worship!!!!!

The point isn't about goddamn uberness. It's about arbitrarily getting rid of a major flaw that has defined the character for DECADES.

Here's an example: Scott and Emma have issues in about every book. Writers didn't just NOT aknowledge the ghost of Jean for kicks. Ignoring Rogue's temper is basically the same thing.

Carey has shown Rogue flaws and all. She is still hot-headed and mouthy. She had to have Cannonball, Bobby and Cable kinda hold her back, she smarts so much! He is also showing her power issues. I think you expect these things to be stated in a way that makes folks hate her. But it's the quirks and flaws people like. If she was perfect and reasonable and not mouthy, then you'd have a point. But she is all those things. You keep rehashing points that are already refuted. You are kinda sounding repetitive. Again, if you can't see how off the mark you are, then stop reading the book. You will be so much happier you moved on.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Okay, I'm giving up. You're 100% right.

The three arcs so far weren't plot devices to establish Rogue as a leader, tweak her powers and send her down the path of uber-angst.

Carey hasn't portrayed EVERYONE in the BEST possible light. Carey didn't ignore Rogue's history of emotionally unstability. Carey didn't ignore the fact that Bobby has more often than not be an obnoxious joker.

Carey doesn't make it a point to make Rogue look good when she makes *bad* decisions. The nano-sentinels thingy was most certainly sensible and wise. Playing judge, jury and executioner most certainly is what X-Men are all about.

Carey didn't pick a roster just so that 'OMG, even BAD GUYS can be bullied by Rogue!!! ROXOR!!!'. Every X-leader should be ready to *kill* to have Lady M, Mystique and Creed in their roster. Like, totally.

Obviously, this is Canemacar, iamlegend and I seeing things that aren't there.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Rogue had no scenes in all of Carey's run that was as plain *****-ass cool as the one Whedon wrote for Kitty in AXM. And I am no Kitty fan, but even I acknowledge how damn awesome that scene was!

The way you missed the point on that one is so very very wrong it's not even funny.

Heroes pulling a gun on defenseless opponents is awesome??? No wonder you'll defend Rogue's ruthless streak to the death.

 

[bns]

Obviously, this is Canemacar, iamlegend and I seeing things that aren't there.

Finally a true statement. t:

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Well from X-Treme on has been quite some time and it's canon now. You are losing a lot of points here. From X-Treme on is CANON and just cause you don't like it doesn't make it so. "I'm sorry I didn't see the stop sign officer so it's not there!"

It's not as if the x-office made it a point to have CC stay the hell away from core books or anything. There just *might* be something to it.

But see you are making references, without any way to substantiate them. You can't say four of five dentists think Rogue's a Mary Sue without a reference to the paper, report, essay. Hell I could claim that Psychologists actually say that persons of a more emotional disposition make better leaders.

It's not as if soldiers/cops deemed to have a short fuse or being emotionally unstable get suspended/kicked out of whatever corps they belong to or anything. Only happens in B movies, right?

Infact, I will say that. According the Bruce Lee in his Essay on the Martial Artist, a fighter who's soul is more moved from the heart rather than the head makes for exceptional leadership skills. I rest my case! t:

We're talking COMMON SENSE.

You're talking HEART and SOUL.

This is campy irony, right? Because the former actually dictates how one feels. Oh, and of course, the later actually exist beyond a shadow of a doubt and all.

 

[bns]

It's not as if the x-office made it a point to have CC stay the hell away from core books or anything. There just *might* be something to it.

Who cares, no one is even talking about CC. His stuff is canon whether you like it or not. Whether you deem it "good" or not. You are beating a dead horse.

It's not as if soldiers/cops deemed to have a short fuse or being emotionally unstable get suspended/kicked out of whatever corps they belong to or anything. Only happens in B movies, right?

You are making assumptions. You don't know. You have read no research on your claim no no any specifics except to say "you know." Cops get suspended for making bad decisions, not for short fuses. Most cops are on a pretty short leash.

We're talking COMMON SENSE.

You're talking HEART and SOUL.

This is campy irony, right? Because the former actually dictates how one feels. Oh, and of course, the later actually exist beyond a shadow of a doubt and all.

*LOL* OMG, my whole quip was a joke poking fun at your use of false claims to prove a point. You say you know Psycologists etc say what you think to be true, so I made an equally dubious outright lie to support my point. See when you make claims you can't pull them out of your ass.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

You are making assumptions. You don't know. You have read no research on your claim no no any specifics except to say "you know." Cops get suspended for making bad decisions, not for short fuses. Most cops are on a pretty short leash.

Right. Cause those psychological evaluations have nothing to do with making sure they're not emotionally unstable or anything.

OMG, my whole quip was a joke poking fun at your use of false claims to prove a point. You say you know Psycologists etc say what you think to be true, so I made an equally dubious outright lie to support my point. See when you make claims you can't pull themout of your ass.

I was JOKING at how silly it was to mention anything to do with heart & souls in the first place.

You *KNOW* the whole post was an exercice in sarcasm. Why the hell wouldn't the last part qualify too?

Double standards isn't playing fair, hon.