The Official Stupid Question Thread: Marvel Edition - Part 4

[Havok83]

Why did Hank Pym beat Jan? Was he drunk? Did she say or do something that made him flip off? Have they ever tried to retcon this? How did his teammates react to him?

 

[runawayboulder]

Why did Hank Pym beat Jan? Was he drunk? Did she say or do something that made him flip off? Have they ever tried to retcon this? How did his teammates react to him?

Hank was facing suspension or expulsion from the Avengers for something and he decided to build another robot to attack the Avengers. The robot has only one weak spot that Hank knew about, so he would swoop in and beat it and get back in the good graces of the team.

Jan found out about it and tried to stop him and Hank backhanded her. He then went to his court martial and pretty much had a mental breakdown in front of the team due to his paranoia.

The interesting thing about this is that Jim Shooter never wrote that scene like that. He intended to have Hank accidentally hit her.

http://www.jimshooter.com/2011/03/hank-pym-was-not-wife-beater.html

 

[chamber-music]

Why did Hank Pym beat Jan? Was he drunk? Did she say or do something that made him flip off? Have they ever tried to retcon this? How did his teammates react to him?

In the original storyline (pre-retcons) Pym was experimenting with a growth chemicals that accidentally induced schizophrenia in him which created a split personality (Yellowjacket).

Hank Pym has his first mental breakdown when his first wife maria in murdered on their honeymoon. Pym has to identity for her body and loose it running around Budapest trying to capture her killer.

In AVENGERS #59 (1969). Hank Pym is conspicuously missing from the Avengers meeting, and then Yellowjacket shows up, claiming to have killed him. Yellowjacket is a crazy cocky, dangerous loon without any of Hanks impulse control.

In AVENGERS #161, by Jim Shooter and George Perez. In this story, Hank gets most of his memory wiped out by Ultron (an evil robot that he created), and so doesn't recognize any of his teammates and attacks them.

In AVENGERS #212, by Jim Shooter and Bob Hall, published in 1981. The Avengers have to head off to face a new villain named the Elfqueen, when Hank gets a unprovoked shot at the Elfqueen leads to him being court-martialed, with his Avengers membership getting put into question.

The court martial drives Hank over the edge. He's so driven to keep his Avengers membership that he comes up with the worst possible way to keep it. He creates a robot named Salvation I (Sal for short) to attack the Avengers during the court martial, so he can save them by blasting it in its vulnerable spot, which he, of course, designed.

Pym has lost it and when Wasp tells him not to do it, that's when he slaps her.

Jim Shooter wrote the scene in which Hank is supposed to have accidentally struck Janet while throwing his hands up in despair and frustration—making a sort of “get away from me” gesture while not looking at her. Bob Hall, who had been taught by John Buscema to always go for the most extreme action, turned that into a right cross! There was no time to have it redrawn.

In the court martial Pym as Yellowjacket who has by now gone on a full mental breakdown says Captain America is only angry because he had the hots for the Elfqueen and has a vendetta against.

The very next issue, Pym tries to talk to Janet and acknowledges that he needs help. When Janet says she won't put up with him anymore and wants a divorce, Hank leaves leaves.

Things went even more downhill for Hank after this. He got manipulated by his old enemy Egghead into committing a federal crime. He was put in jail. Tony Stark dated the Wasp while he was in jail.

On the day of his trial, Hank is kidnapped by Egghead, who believes that Hank is so far gone that he would be willing to join the Masters of Evil. Hank does, but then it turns out he's just playing along so he can build a machine that will let him beat down the Masters single handedly.

After this, he punches out Egghead, who pulls a gun at him. Hawkeye arrives just in time to shoot an arrow into it, which kills Egghead, but there's enough evidence in Egghead's lair to clear Hank.

The storyline comes to a close with Hank forgiving himself and living with what he did. Since Egghead manipulated Hank, the Avengers are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and ask him to go through a mental scan to see if his actions were caused by an outside influence. After he takes it, Hank gives off saying "I made my own mistakes, and I have to live with them."

The Avengers have to hold a court martial for Hawkeye after he accidentally killed Egghead saving Pym's life. It's just a formality, but Hank steps up to defend him. The Avengers acquit Hawkeye, they go to apologize to Hank for not doing more to help him. Again, Pym takes responsibility for what he's done. Pym also apologizes to Janet again and make peace with each other going their separate ways.

Pym tries to commit suicide putting a gun to his head before he is stopped. He goes on to join the West Coast Avengers, first as a consultant, then as a nonpowered operative. Eventually, he'd become Giant-Man again and rejoin the main Avengers team and eventually, he and Jan fell in love again and started dating.

The storyline was pretty much resolved and wrapped up over 30 years ago but writers constantly almost go back to it. Pym spent the last 30 years crying over slapping Janet and being backhanded by numerous women in revenge.

There have been numerous retcons going into more detail about both Pym's mental state and Janet turning a blind eye to he mental problems over the subsequent years. Hank Pym in the latest issue of Avengers AI was diagnosed as Bipolar.

In the Ultimate comics in which everyone is a ass**** instead of Pym slapping Janet once in a mental breakdown Pym regularly beat Janet for years.
Which is probably where people who have not read the original 616 story (It is 30 years old) got the idea that Pym is a violent wife beater.

Peter Parker once backhanded his pregnant wife MJ across the room into a wall as well but Spider-Man draws more dollar bills than Ant-Man/Giant-Man/Goliath/Yellowjacket so they One More Day it (act like it never happened )

It is kind of funny that in Spider-Man 3 Peter also hits MJ so perhaps someone at Sony totally remembers that issue

[YT]cziUFQMTEDk[/YT]

 

[Havok83]

Thanks. That doesn't seem to have played out as bad as I thought it was. His legacy, unfortunately has always been that of a wife beater

 

[runawayboulder]

In the Ultimate comics in which everyone is a ass**** instead of Pym slapping Janet once in a mental breakdown Pym regularly beat Janet for years.
Which is probably where people who have not read the original 616 story (It is 30 years old) got the idea that Pym is a violent wife beater.

^^^Yup, Agreed.



Ugh, and I hate that scene with Peter. It signifies everything that was horrid about that era.

 

[chamber-music]

Thanks. That doesn't seem to have played out as bad as I thought it was. His legacy, unfortunately has always been that of a wife beater

Pretty much.

The failure of Marvel writers over the last 30 years to come of with any new interesting storylines or directions for Pym as a character outside of slapping Janet and Ultron hasn't really helped the character either.

The writers seem to fall back on those two storylines time and time again which means the character really hasn't moved forward as much as many of his counterparts.

The Pym being written by Mark Waid in the Age Of Ultron tie in and who makes semi-regular appearances in Daredevil is really good. Waid likes the character and its a shame he doesn't get to write him on a more regular basis. I think of all the writers who have tried to redeem and find a use for the character Waid has the best chance of actually pulling it off.

It helps that he has a voice for the character and has found genuinely interesting and original uses for Pyms powers.

 

[KevanG]

You've got to love the UU. Everyone is an ******* and everyone deserves the beatings they get, except for Spider-man, mostly.

 

[Lord]

That's because they are in a more grey area, in a way the UU was also more realistic, if there was a Cap America and he was dragged into the 21st century that's how he would be like, not just a goody goody, his ways of thinking would be racist and in battle he would have that cocky WWII attitude.

Bendis, the guy who takes care of Ultimate Spider-Man also seems to like to s*** on other UM characters, best example was with Reed Richards, the whole Ultimate Fantastic Four team was very likeable, and then he turned Reed into a psycho and monster.

Would like to make a question, when does Cyclops start to become a villain? I heard he was acting like one since long before Avengers vs X-Men

 

[Havok83]

Cyclop's not a villain!

 

[chamber-music]

Cyclops isn't really villainous.

When Cyke had the phoenix force it drove him crazy bringing out his deep desires and he killed xavier and some other people but once the phoenix went Scott has gone back to how he was before although as a slightly more revolutionary figure.

Right now Cyclops is saving and training new mutants like the x-factor days but with a slightly more hardline message of 'if you attack us we will defend ourselves' which is understandable considering the mutant population was driven almost to extinction thanks to M Day. When Cycolps was in charge of the X-Men as well as seeing buses of young mutants blown up there was also X-Men crucified on the front lawn of the Mansion by anti-mutant groups.

People compare Cyclops to Magneto but they are very different. Magneto at his most villainous was saying to kill humans before they kill us and that mutants were superior to humans so should rule above humans which isn't want Cyclops wants at all.

 

[Lord]

Didn't he carve an x into a man's face?

 

[chamber-music]

Didn't he carve an x into a man's face?

I've not read any issues of him doing that but if cyclops has then its news to me

 

[Lord]

It was in one of the Avengers vs X-Men aftermath issues when he got out of prison

 

[Havok83]

He isn't do that; Danger did although I guess he shares responsibility as he allowed her to. It was done to the corrupt warden that was profiting off of mutant prejudice in the Consequence mini. In that another mutant was murdered and Scott could have saved him but was prevented from doing so. The X carving was a warning and reminder to that warden for what he allowed to be done and to never do it again

 

[runawayboulder]

Scott isn't a villain. He's just an a*****e.

 

[Lord]

Very well, then let me ask it in a different way, when did cyclops start to become an a****e?

 

[JewishHobbit]

It was gradual starting with Morrison's New X-Men run when he cheated on Jean Grey. Then right about when M-Day happened (House of M) he took charge of the X-Men and it was gradual from then on out. I think it became obvious after Messiah Complex when he commissioned X-Force.

 

[chamber-music]

I would say Scott has been on a gradual more edgier turn since the Twelve storyline when he merged with Apocalypse.

Does Cyclops still bounce his laser vision off of things?

I don't think I've seen him do it in years.

 

[javi1024]

Would like to make a question, when does Cyclops start to become a villain? I heard he was acting like one since long before Avengers vs X-Men

He's not a villain. AvX was the culmination of years of tough choices and survival from complete extinction. After M-Day Cyclops became the unofficial leader of the remaining mutant community. The remaining 198 mutants were all moved to the Xavier Institute which was now a government protected mutant reservation. They protected against Bishop leading the 198 in an exodus from the school, the Purifiers killing a busload of students, the Sapien League killing remaining mutants on school ground, until eventually the school being destroyed in Messiah Complex after Bishop betrayed the team and hijacked the sentinels posted to protect the school to attack the X-Men while they slept.

From there Cyclops temporarily disbanded the X-Men after it seemed like Xavier had died at the end of Messiah Complex but then decided to move the X-Men to San Francisco where they would be more accepted by the community. But this is also when Cyclops formed his own X-Force with the sole purpose of taking out those who pose a threat to mutants before they have a chance to, keeping them a secret to the rest of the team. Members like Emma and Hank began to grow suspicious of these activites but then had to deal with the riots in San Fran after the government proposal of regulating mutant births during the Avengers/X-Men crossover Utopia. Beast was taken hostage and experimented on by Norman Osborn, and that story ended with the X-Men retreating from San Francisco and onto a floating rock off the coast they created from the wreckage of Magneto's former Asteroid M. Hank was rescued after and resented Cyclops for taking so long.

Now living on Utopia, Magento has acknowledged Scott has done what he never has: gather all the mutants under one cause, and so he joins much to Xavier's protest. Cyclops has still been running X-Force and he's so hell-bent on the protection of the Mutant Messiah (see Messiah Complex) that he's willing to put his team's and other mutants ' lives at risk to ensure she is safe. Hank has had enough of this extremist Scott so he officially quits. The messiah, Hope, finally returns with Cable in Second Coming just as an alliance of mutant haters (Bastion, Cameron Hodge and The Right, William Stryker and the Purifiers, and Steven Lang) launch an all-out assault on the mutants on Utopia. By then end the X-Men win but at the cost of Ariel, Nightcrawler, and Cable.

Scott is convinced Hope is the key to return of the mutant population even though no one is entirely sure how that is, but when she returns the first five mutants are detected since M-Day and are brought to the school. Then Logan starts seeing how dick-tatorish Scott has become, even having young mutants training for combat when he feels they should be kids. A worldwide sentinel outbreak, and an attack on Utopia island cause a rift between the X-Men leaving half staying with Cyclops while the others leave with Wolverine to rebuild the school in Westchester.

So Scott's decisions have led to Hank leaving, Nightcrawler's and his son's death, the revelation and termination of X-Force, and a split in his family and the mutants on Utopia. Now he's running around the world with his "Extinction Team" (Magneto, Emma Frost, Namor, Colossus, Danger, and Magik) saying we're here to protect you, but if you ever harm or turn on us we have enough power to take down a Celestial (which they do). Even during an alien invasion where they team up with the Avengers, Cyclops was more concerned with protecting Hope than human civilians. Captain America made sure he knew how he felt about that.

So all of that led up to the events of AvX. It's a lot, I know. It wasn't like he all of a sudden went "evil", he's just had to adjust his vision of the Xavier dream due to circumstance.

 

[runawayboulder]

Yeah if you really want to pinpoint it, it was X-Men vol 2 #97 in February of 2000. The moment Scott jumped in between Apocalypse and Nate Grey in order to save Nate was the moment that forever changed the character.

Every writer since has put their own little spin on it. Some have made him edgy, some have made tactical and some have made him a complete d**k.

Man, 2000. 13 years ago. Why has Marvel been so dedicated to this status quo for Cyclops??? Quesada started running things around that time. I wonder if he loves a *****ey Scott Summers as much as he does a single-at-any-cost Peter Parker...?

 

[Tropico]

It fits with the movie side that Cyke is $#!t and Wolverine can be sensitive AND a loner AND a badass so I guess we got stuck with that. Personally, with the characterization nowadays, sometimes I think they tried to switch Cyke and Wolvie's brains/bodies off panel, something went wrong and they were forever changed with traits from one another.

 

[chamber-music]

I think the X-office idea was for Cyclops and Wolverine to switch roles. Cyclops has now become the edgy slightly jaded dangerous rebellious one while Wolverine is now seen as the responsible idealist leader who everyone respects.

The fact Wolverine is the most popular, profitable and most recognized X-Man probably didn't hurt Marvel's decision to bump off Xavier and move Cyclops out of the majority leadership role of the X-Men.

With the whole Black Panther marriage which diminished her role in the X-Men for a few years done and dusted I wouldn't mind seeing Storm take over the overall command of the X-Men instead of Scott and Logan with both sides reuniting.

For me neither Cyclops of Wolverine have come out of the schism split looking good to be honest. Wolverine has been acting as much a d*** as Cyclops. Cyclops killed his father figure Charles Xavier and Wolverine murdered his son Daken. Cyclops started X-Force as a kill squad but Wolverine continued it after Cyclops split.

The only real difference between them is how they believe mutant kids should be treated. Wolverine wants mutant kids to be kids and hopes to protect them while Cyclops thinks young mutants no longer have the luxury of living in a school like he the original 5 did with all the anti-mutants not out to get them.

 

[runawayboulder]

The idea behind Schism was for them to switch roles, sure. But for a long time there, Cyclops and Wolverine were seeing eye to eye on a lot of stuff, which says more about how much Scott has changed more than Wolverine has.

 

[Tropico]

I think the X-office idea was for Cyclops and Wolverine to switch roles. Cyclops has now become the edgy slightly jaded dangerous rebellious one while Wolverine is now seen as the responsible idealist leader who everyone respects.

The fact Wolverine is the most popular, profitable and most recognized X-Man probably didn't hurt Marvel's decision to bump off Xavier and move Cyclops out of the majority leadership role of the X-Men.

With the whole Black Panther marriage which diminished her role in the X-Men for a few years done and dusted I wouldn't mind seeing Storm take over the overall command of the X-Men instead of Scott and Logan with both sides reuniting.

For me neither Cyclops of Wolverine have come out of the schism split looking good to be honest. Wolverine has been acting as much a d*** as Cyclops. Cyclops killed his father figure Charles Xavier and Wolverine murdered his son Daken. Cyclops started X-Force as a kill squad but Wolverine continued it after Cyclops split.

The only real difference between them is how they believe mutant kids should be treated. Wolverine wants mutant kids to be kids and hopes to protect them while Cyclops thinks young mutants no longer have the luxury of living in a school like he the original 5 did with all the anti-mutants not out to get them.

I agree with the bolded statement the most. That last fight and dragging Jean and petty jealousy into it was dumb, IMO; it disqualified either of them of any kind of leadership position. It showed they weren't mature enough to rise above that after all they've been through.

 

[KevanG]

I personally think Scott was right in the whole deal. Wolverine tended just to fight with him for the sake of it and usually not caring who it affected. If your people are going to be extinct if someone just drops a missile on an island and everybody wants to do that then you have to take steps. The Avengers were idiots, fighting for the hell of it and no one bothered to help the X-men during the whole thing even though they're the ones who have had far more experience with everything that happened the Phoenix, mutant issues and all the rest.