The Official Superman Thread - Part 1

[Mystirious]

What was the worst Superman story you have ever read?

There have been a couple of crummy ones but the 'story' where Superman and Big Barda get hypnotised and taffyed by a monster from Apokolips so he can make a porno with them gets a from me

 

[Superman 1265]

There have been a couple of crummy ones but the 'story' where Superman and Big Barda get hypnotised and taffyed by a monster from Apokolips so he can make a porno with them gets a from me

I have a trade paperback that has that particular story. I usually skip it.

 

[Mystirious]

So do I. Superman is a huge jerky jerk in that story and the way Barda is treated makes me

I hate stories that use rape or violence against female characters as a cheap way to shock or create drama. And using one of Jack Kirby's characters in a story like that just makes it worse

 

[Watchman]

Well I think I'm done defending Miller and DKSA for a lifetime.

So how about I write a story where Spider-Man is a pedophile who eats the bodies of his 3 year old victims? After all, you can't tell me how to write my story, right?

If you want to write story where this happens by all means go right ahead. All of my arguments will be based on the merits of the writing and art not on exceptions of what a character should or shouldn't be.

I remember around the release of The Green Hornet Michel Gondry said, "Their values are fascistic. All those people marching around in capes and masks and boots. The superhero imagery is totally fascist! When you step into this genre, they feel it belongs to them. They want you to conform, or they won’t like you."

Morrison has said things along similar lines. In Flex Mentello, which can pretty much double as his thesis on comics, he notes that these characters/stories are fluid not solid. They can be manipulate to anyway we see fit. That's why saying all superheroes should be light hearted adventures is just as bad as saying all superheroes should be grimdark avengers. It's limiting to the of what the genre can do and limits what an artist can produce.

I don't let nostalgia or past expectations judge what comics can do. I can watch Brave and the Bold and love the hell out of it. Then I'll go read City of Crime and Broken City and have the same love. I love Frank Miller's Superman. I love it for those 500 pages. I love the great man who has become this tragic figure because he wants to save people, and I love the uneasy feeling I get when he blows up the plane, becoming the monster. I love All Star Superman. The kiss on the moon, Tyrant Suns, the sad song of Zibarro. I love Kelly's What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the America but I also love the merry bad of *****e bags that is the Authority. I will read an Ennis Punisher book and then some Gottfredson Mickey Mouse and I will not judge them based on some notion what comics should be but how well they are created.

That's why I love Dark Knight Strikes Again. Not because of the Rand wankfest but because it tells comic fascists to **** off. These characters can do anything I want with them and they will do anything I want with them. There is no rigid, set way to do anything and I refuse to accept one. The old Superman comics are amazing but I will not let them dictate what I will enjoy now.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That's what out-of-continuity stories are for. Or, if you're going to drastically shift a character's interpretation in-continuity, follow Morrison's example and lay down the necessary groundwork for it. Artistic license is fine and dandy, but in a medium built on the shoulders of your predecessors as literally as ongoing comics are, utterly ignoring the personalities of characters established over decades before you came around strikes me less as a bold creative move and more as a colossally egotistical exercise.

 

[Watchman]

That's what out-of-continuity stories are for. Or, if you're going to drastically shift a character's interpretation in-continuity, follow Morrison's example and lay down the necessary groundwork for it. Artistic license is fine and dandy, but in a medium built on the shoulders of your predecessors as literally as ongoing comics are, utterly ignoring the personalities of characters established over decades before you came around strikes me less as a bold creative move and more as a colossally egotistical exercise.

Well yes. I'm just going extreme rant to extreme rant. It was mostly in response to things shouldn't be like this. Why not? Who set these rules and why can't comics be like a certain way? I love them so don't tell me what should or shouldn't be.

I just don't really let that stuff bother me anymore. Whether it be Jason Todd's hair, what side of Wayne Manor was destroyed in an earthquake years ago. Even personalities shifts I'm alright with since no writer is a copy of another.

In a world built upon over seventy years of stories, retcons, cosmic screw ups, I just stopped caring about most of these things. A comic universe based upon rigid expectations and stone solid characterizations/continuity leads to stagnation. A basic understanding should be applied to when writing established comic creations but it shouldn't limit a creator in anyway. For me, nothing is too crazy. This is also the reason why Joe Casey doesn't write for the big two that much unless he gets something with a big sandbox like Vengeance and Zodiac.

 

[Kurosawa]

Well, we aren't going to agree on anything, but I have always felt that characters are best handled and evolve in the best manner when the original or definitive creators intentions are kept in mind. That's not to say I'm not for characters changing due to circumstances of their lives, but they should be recognizable to who they are. Defend Miller all you want, the vast majority of comics fans-even modern fans who have been raised on deconstructionist tropes-feel that Miller has some sort of issue with Superman because every time he has written him, he has been a worthless *****e and Batman's personal *****.

I feel the characters and their original creators are the important thing. I don't feel characters should be warped to fit stories, I think stories should be written to fit characters and bring out the best in them.

 

[Watchman]

Yes, I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. Although, I think I might have gotten a bit too abrasive. It's been a rotten week and I think I went a bit too far with damning the old and slinging about the word fascist. I would be a hypocrite if I didn't think that great, and some of my favorites, works are built upon the foundations of past creators, Seven Soldiers and All Star Superman spring to mind.

I'll still disagree against not having dark stories in superhero comics. Handle with the right maturity creators can come up with some great results. One of the more recent example is Snyder's Detective work. Nor will I blame deconstructionist work of Moore and Miller (scheme is a rather absurd word) for the work of hacks trying to create a poor copy. Both Moore and Miller have shown that they can do all sorts of superhero works. I see things like ABC Comics, Supreme, Judgement Day, and Big Guy and Rusty as a response to the comics were an inadvertent side effect of their better works.

 

[Kurosawa]

Yes, I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. Although, I think I might have gotten a bit too abrasive. It's been a rotten week and I think I went a bit too far with damning the old and slinging about the word fascist. I would be a hypocrite if I didn't think that great, and some of my favorites, works are built upon the foundations of past creators, Seven Soldiers and All Star Superman spring to mind.

Nah, not at all. You're just stating your piece and I know it's nothing personal, just a matter of different tastes and influences. The age difference between us is most likely a factor too-I grew up in a time when the SA comics were not ancient history, they were books from 8-10 years ago was all. Because I grew up reading and admiring superheroes who were super and heroic, I just have a different view of comics than you do. It extends into other media as well-for example, Luke is by far my favorite SW character. I like my good guys to be very upstanding, noble, pure and heroic. Nice guy characters appeal to me and that's why Superman is so great to me. Ultimately, the driving theme is Superman is altruism. To me that is why Miller has singled Superman out for special abuse. Superman is too good for Miller to believe.

I'll still disagree against not having dark stories in superhero comics. Handle with the right maturity creators can come up with some great results. One of the more recent example is Snyder's Detective work. Nor will I blame deconstructionist work of Moore and Miller (scheme is a rather absurd word) for the work of hacks trying to create a poor copy. Both Moore and Miller have shown that they can do all sorts of superhero works. I see things like ABC Comics, Supreme, Judgement Day, and Big Guy and Rusty as a response to the comics were an inadvertent side effect of their better works.

I'm not necessarily against dark stories in superhero comics as much as I am sick of there being nothing much BUT dark stories in superhero comics. 25+ years of endless brutality and misery gets pretty old. I just think it's easier to write a bunch of violent, misogynist, shock-value crap than it is to actually be creative. It's an easy crutch and that's why hacks like Geoff Johns use brutality so much. I can't think of any really good science-fiction type writers working in superhero comics currently.

I do like the current Detective run, actually. Batman has naturally always worked well with darker subject material. Superman to me works best when he is dealing with moral and ethical issues, and he is written in such a way that his morals are just as super as the rest of him. People should come away from Superman comics and movies feeling better about things and more willing to help their fellow man. I like Superman when he puts the needs of others before himself, and part of his mission is to influence other people to care more about their fellow man. That's a big part of why "Must there be a Superman?" is such essential reading for a study of Superman's character and themes.

Now Alan Moore has shown that he has range with superhero comics, and he has actually taken some responsibility for the genres decline into endless swipes from his Watchmen. Miller, not so much, but I generally like his work outside of superheroes somewhat, the first two issues of Ronin and 300 were both pretty okay strips. And Sin City is entertaining in a trashy way. Not much of a fan of Martha Washington because I don't like Miller's assertion that only masculine women can be powerful.

 

[Drz]

Now Alan Moore has shown that he has range with superhero comics, and he has actually taken some responsibility for the genres decline into endless swipes from his Watchmen. Miller, not so much, but I generally like his work outside of superheroes somewhat, the first two issues of Ronin and 300 were both pretty okay strips. And Sin City is entertaining in a trashy way. Not much of a fan of Martha Washington because I don't like Miller's assertion that only masculine women can be powerful.

How do you feel about Alan Moore's work consistently having women either getting raped or attempt raped? I never understood the Miller hate on how he writes women, when Alan Moore does alot of rape/attempt rapes on his work, lets not forget Lost Girls the jailbait sex story!

 

[fifthfiend]

Well I think I'm done defending Miller and DKSA for a lifetime.



If you want to write story where this happens by all means go right ahead. All of my arguments will be based on the merits of the writing and art not on exceptions of what a character should or shouldn't be.

I remember around the release of The Green Hornet Michel Gondry said, "Their values are fascistic. All those people marching around in capes and masks and boots. The superhero imagery is totally fascist! When you step into this genre, they feel it belongs to them. They want you to conform, or they won’t like you."

Morrison has said things along similar lines. In Flex Mentello, which can pretty much double as his thesis on comics, he notes that these characters/stories are fluid not solid. They can be manipulate to anyway we see fit. That's why saying all superheroes should be light hearted adventures is just as bad as saying all superheroes should be grimdark avengers. It's limiting to the of what the genre can do and limits what an artist can produce.

I don't let nostalgia or past expectations judge what comics can do. I can watch Brave and the Bold and love the hell out of it. Then I'll go read City of Crime and Broken City and have the same love. I love Frank Miller's Superman. I love it for those 500 pages. I love the great man who has become this tragic figure because he wants to save people, and I love the uneasy feeling I get when he blows up the plane, becoming the monster. I love All Star Superman. The kiss on the moon, Tyrant Suns, the sad song of Zibarro. I love Kelly's What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the America but I also love the merry bad of *****e bags that is the Authority. I will read an Ennis Punisher book and then some Gottfredson Mickey Mouse and I will not judge them based on some notion what comics should be but how well they are created.

That's why I love Dark Knight Strikes Again. Not because of the Rand wankfest but because it tells comic fascists to **** off. These characters can do anything I want with them and they will do anything I want with them. There is no rigid, set way to do anything and I refuse to accept one. The old Superman comics are amazing but I will not let them dictate what I will enjoy now.

Well all right thanks for all those words explaining that you have no taste or standards.

NEXT EPISODE: Watchmen literally eats a **** sandwich, to prove he won't be dictated to by you non-****-eating fascists, maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan

same dumb time

same dumb channel

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

I have read so many people misinterpret certain artist's works, Miller's included, it can be very easily done.
Like, with what Kurosawa was saying about Miller only thinking 'masculine' women can be strong. I imagine that some of the triats you have in mind as being masculine, to me, and perhaps to Miller, are not masculine at all, they are just human traits that are shared by strong men and women.

 

[Mystirious]

How do you feel about Alan Moore's work consistently having women either getting raped or attempt raped? I never understood the Miller hate on how he writes women, when Alan Moore does alot of rape/attempt rapes on his work, lets not forget Lost Girls the jailbait sex story!

Writing a story where a female character is raped does not automatically make the writer a misogynist though Drz

It depends on how the story is written

Though personally I do not like rape in comic books at all

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

Yeah, I am not into rape fantasies either.

But, in fantasy fiction you might get a scenario where a guy grabs ahold of a woman he loves, who he knows loves him(and she knows she loves him, and he her), and she is with another guy they both know she does not love, so the guy somewhat forcibly takes her into his arms, and she hesitates, or does not exactly say yes or no, but once he takes a hold of her, she is a willing participant.
That kind of fictional scenario is not rape exactly now is it?
Although, it might blend somewhat ambigously into that dodgy area where a guy forcibly takes a woman and *then* she gets into it.
that is a right dodgy take on rape, but a dramatic presentation that lies somewhere between those two scenarios, is ambiguous, so I would not go around calling it rape.
It's extremely bad to go round labelling something as something it is not, especially something as serious as that.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Well yes. I'm just going extreme rant to extreme rant. It was mostly in response to things shouldn't be like this. Why not? Who set these rules and why can't comics be like a certain way? I love them so don't tell me what should or shouldn't be.

I just don't really let that stuff bother me anymore. Whether it be Jason Todd's hair, what side of Wayne Manor was destroyed in an earthquake years ago. Even personalities shifts I'm alright with since no writer is a copy of another.

In a world built upon over seventy years of stories, retcons, cosmic screw ups, I just stopped caring about most of these things. A comic universe based upon rigid expectations and stone solid characterizations/continuity leads to stagnation. A basic understanding should be applied to when writing established comic creations but it shouldn't limit a creator in anyway. For me, nothing is too crazy. This is also the reason why Joe Casey doesn't write for the big two that much unless he gets something with a big sandbox like Vengeance and Zodiac.

There's a great quote that I think Joss Whedon said about how readers/viewers/whatever can buy a universe where pretty much anything happens, so long as it remains internally consistent. A guy defying gravity because the color of the sun says so is not the same kind of "impossible" to most people as a guy who starts shooting people in the face after decades of claiming he hates guns and will never touch one, for example. I've come to agree with that sentiment, which is why power shifts and wacky scenarios don't bother me, but Spider-Man suddenly yukking it up on 3 teams with Wolverine when he used to always be leery and/or directly confrontational with Wolverine because of his murderous ways does. Exceptions would be if the personality shifts are actually explained--not in a boring, "hey, this is why this person is different--cue flashback" kind of way, but when the creators actually craft a logical, satisfying narrative out of it. That's good storytelling to me. Twisting characters around to suit your needs with no thought for their long-established personalities because you just have to tell this awesome story about how Odin came back from the dead as a total dick for no apparent reason does not sit well with me.

 

[Mystirious]

Spiderman is just waiting for the chance to melt Wolverine

That's my theory

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That's Thor's schtick. Spider-Man needs to get his own.

 

[Mystirious]

Spidey just wants to be cool as Thor so people will love him again

He has it rough Corp. He traded his marriage to the beautiful redhead to the devil

He stupidly quit being friends with benefits with the hawt ass kicking blonde in pvc

And all his friends and relatives are either dead occasionally evil or both

Actually thinking about it most of those problems are his own fault

 

[Watchman]

Nah, not at all. You're just stating your piece and I know it's nothing personal, just a matter of different tastes and influences. The age difference between us is most likely a factor too-I grew up in a time when the SA comics were not ancient history, they were books from 8-10 years ago was all. Because I grew up reading and admiring superheroes who were super and heroic, I just have a different view of comics than you do. It extends into other media as well-for example, Luke is by far my favorite SW character. I like my good guys to be very upstanding, noble, pure and heroic. Nice guy characters appeal to me and that's why Superman is so great to me. Ultimately, the driving theme is Superman is altruism. To me that is why Miller has singled Superman out for special abuse. Superman is too good for Miller to believe.

Partially true. My entrance into comics, aside from random issues of Ultimate Spider-Man, was with Watchmen and Morrison's Doom Patrol. Initially my taste had been skewed to darker, weirder, and more deconstructional work. Although, further exploring their work I've found what they could do with the more traditional superhero. I remember picking up All Star Superman for the first time and having Superman instantly becoming my favorite comic character knocking Constantine to number two.

I'm not necessarily against dark stories in superhero comics as much as I am sick of there being nothing much BUT dark stories in superhero comics. 25+ years of endless brutality and misery gets pretty old. I just think it's easier to write a bunch of violent, misogynist, shock-value crap than it is to actually be creative. It's an easy crutch and that's why hacks like Geoff Johns use brutality so much. I can't think of any really good science-fiction type writers working in superhero comics currently.

This I agree with. Most of the darker stories or more "mature" stories are pretty juvenile. Things like Identity Crisis, Rise of Arsenal, and Cry for Justice always come off hokey to me. It just seems like the writer is screaming, "LOOK HOW SERIOUS THESE CHARACTERS ARE!"

I do like the current Detective run, actually. Batman has naturally always worked well with darker subject material. Superman to me works best when he is dealing with moral and ethical issues, and he is written in such a way that his morals are just as super as the rest of him. People should come away from Superman comics and movies feeling better about things and more willing to help their fellow man. I like Superman when he puts the needs of others before himself, and part of his mission is to influence other people to care more about their fellow man. That's a big part of why "Must there be a Superman?" is such essential reading for a study of Superman's character and themes.

I get into arguments with my friend about Superman. He hates him for the reasons you listed. The altruism and perfect goodness. He doesn't catch the irony that he is a big Captain American fan. I need to read more of Maggin's work and definitely more Superman work from that time period in general.

There's a great quote that I think Joss Whedon said about how readers/viewers/whatever can buy a universe where pretty much anything happens, so long as it remains internally consistent. A guy defying gravity because the color of the sun says so is not the same kind of "impossible" to most people as a guy who starts shooting people in the face after decades of claiming he hates guns and will never touch one, for example. I've come to agree with that sentiment, which is why power shifts and wacky scenarios don't bother me, but Spider-Man suddenly yukking it up on 3 teams with Wolverine when he used to always be leery and/or directly confrontational with Wolverine because of his murderous ways does. Exceptions would be if the personality shifts are actually explained--not in a boring, "hey, this is why this person is different--cue flashback" kind of way, but when the creators actually craft a logical, satisfying narrative out of it. That's good storytelling to me. Twisting characters around to suit your needs with no thought for their long-established personalities because you just have to tell this awesome story about how Odin came back from the dead as a total dick for no apparent reason does not sit well with me.

C'mon we know why those two are in five teams. They're sales generators. I'm not surprise that Deadpool is hanging around one of the teams being a former shell of a good character.

Also...I agree with you...I was just ananmously lashing out/being confrontational/playing devil's advocate/being a prick due to some pent up anger.

I would be a hypocrite if I didn't agree with. I've had plenty of issues of writers saying **** it all like say Dr. Strange being beat by a pack of random ninjas or Johns's do whatever the hell you want with the past, you don't know the whole story with Green Lantern. It's not filling in gaps that never been shown like Morrison's Batman but just flat out changing events that have happened. But things like changing Jason Todd's hair color or Dick and Barbara going to prom together don't bother me. I'm not going to whip out a personal timeline and endlessly **** about it.

That's Thor's schtick. Spider-Man needs to get his own.

Spider-Man can impale him and eat his face.

Now if you would excuse me I have to go eat a **** sandwich...

 

[Mystirious]

Spiderman needs to stop eating faces they are not part of a balanced diet

Partially true. My entrance into comics, aside from random issues of Ultimate Spider-Man, was with Watchmen and Morrison's Doom Patrol.

I loved that series

I recommend checking out the later issues of the vertigo Doom Patrol series as well written by Rachel Pollack

They were amazing

 

[Kurosawa]

How do you feel about Alan Moore's work consistently having women either getting raped or attempt raped? I never understood the Miller hate on how he writes women, when Alan Moore does alot of rape/attempt rapes on his work, lets not forget Lost Girls the jailbait sex story!

I hate it, and it sickens me just as much as it does with Miller, although Moore has written more superhero comics that I have enjoyed than Miller has, mostly thanks to his run on Supreme. I hate Lost Girls with a passion, as Dorothy Gale is one of my favorite characters, and my wife is a huge Alice in Wonderland fan and she was likewise disgusted by it. I think that book proves that Moore is a very sick individual and most likely needs serious psychiatric help. I find it just as disgusting as Miller's treatment of Superman and especially Dick Grayson in DKR and DKSA. I have been a huge fan of the Oz books since I was a child and I am a huge Judy Garland fan as well. Dorothy is brave, kind, decent and always willing to stand up for what is right. Alice is smart and inquisitive and was likewise smeared in that book as was Wendy Darling. What Moore did in that book was sickening.

Partially true. My entrance into comics, aside from random issues of Ultimate Spider-Man, was with Watchmen and Morrison's Doom Patrol. Initially my taste had been skewed to darker, weirder, and more deconstructional work. Although, further exploring their work I've found what they could do with the more traditional superhero. I remember picking up All Star Superman for the first time and having Superman instantly becoming my favorite comic character knocking Constantine to number two.

My entrance into comics was with O'Neil/Adams Batman, so I felt I got just the right balance of seriousness and fun. The Bronze Age was the ideal time in comics for me-somewhat more mature storylines than the Silver Age, but still fun and the heroes were still morally strong and fought evil for the right reasons.

This I agree with. Most of the darker stories or more "mature" stories are pretty juvenile. Things like Identity Crisis, Rise of Arsenal, and Cry for Justice always come off hokey to me. It just seems like the writer is screaming, "LOOK HOW SERIOUS THESE CHARACTERS ARE!"

Agreed. All of those series are wretched, IMO.

I get into arguments with my friend about Superman. He hates him for the reasons you listed. The altruism and perfect goodness. He doesn't catch the irony that he is a big Captain American fan. I need to read more of Maggin's work and definitely more Superman work from that time period in general.

I really recommend Maggin's two novels for anyone who wants to see just what makes Superman tick. The Graduation chapter from Miracle Monday in particular is one of the best bits of Superman writing that Maggin has ever done.

 

[Mystirious]

Are the Maggin novels still in print Kurosawa or would I need to look on Amazon to find them

 

[Tron Bonne]

How do you feel about Alan Moore's work consistently having women either getting raped or attempt raped? I never understood the Miller hate on how he writes women, when Alan Moore does alot of rape/attempt rapes on his work, lets not forget Lost Girls the jailbait sex story!

Well, I'll agree Moore has written more rape than he probably needed to (though the actual amount of rape in his work is significantly overblown by his critics), but that doesn't necessarily mean he writes women bad. Moore probably doesn't get that rap because for as many times as he's used rape, he's still had good, developed female characters throughout all of his work. Miller has a few, but less so, and his examples of misogynistic portrayals are just so out there, he's obviously going to get more slack for it.

 

[Mystirious]

Yep that's pretty much it

 

[HighFivingMF]

So, Superman topped IGN's list of Top 100 Comic Book Superheroes. He was followed, obviously, by Batman and Spider-Man.