The Official Superman Thread - Part 1

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You do realize that you share the same complaints with Superman with Miller. Blaming Miller for writers treating Superman harshly is like blaming Moore for turning superheroes dark because of Watchmen. Every time Batman chastises Superman I've must of read it differently than you. I've read as Batman grabbing Superman, trying to shake him back into reality. Shouting: "You're the god damn Superman. You're not a corporate clown/ Reagan's puppet. You're better than this. Now prove me right!"

Miller's Batman is also very jealous of all the super powered heroes and he really seems to be wanting powers so he could make huge differences, we've seen in his cynical prime age he really is hating Superman and despises him to an insane level while also wanting Supes to make that real change in the world. I think Miller wanted to make a 3rd TDKR book which would focus on Superman, Wonder Woman and their daughter Lana. Alas Frankie seems to think his TDKSA pissed off DC too much lol. :p I'd love to see Miller make a story out of Batman and Jason Todd Robin personally.
 
Yep no reason he cant be an American but i have always thought of him as being a global hero

Clark Kent is an american citizen but when he's Superman I don't think of him as being tied to any one nation or even one planet. He travels all over the world and through time and to other planets.

And how does a superhero with a secret identity even get citizenship

Superman being an American citizen in his civillian ID makes sense but being one in his superhero identity does not make sense to me
Excellent point very astute.
 
Bleeding Cool is reporting that DC will publish a Superman Beyond comic by Jim Shooter, set in the same continuity as Batman Beyond and upcoming Justice League Unlimited comic.
 
Why are they going crazy with all this Batman Beyond stuff? I really didn't think the mini did well enough to warrant spin-offs, and I was sure the new ongoing wasn't doing that well.
 
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Why are they going crazy with all this Batman Beyond stuff? I really didn't think the mini did well enough to warrant spin-offs, and I was sure the new ongoing wasn't doing that well.
Because the cartoon was really good and they're hoping they can capitalize on people's nostalgia for it. Which is a great idea in theory, except they keep putting Adam Beechen on that s***.
 
Yep Beechen is going to ruin any cance of those spin offs doing well
 
I think Morrison atleast has some ideas to touch on the Golden Age Superman, but yeah Miller's references to the Siegel/Shuster original are practically limited to having Superman run from US to France to get a doctor instead of flying, thats it.

Morrison almost gets Superman, except he is influenced by that farmboy Lil' Abner/Jethro crap that Byrne shoved into Superman's history. Mort wisely got the Kents off the farm and into a small town so Superboy's childhood was more than just a rural thing when most of their readers were from cities. The ignorance of Byrne and other writers like him has caused the extremely cliched hayseed depiction of Superman where he comes off as a mix between those characters and Lennie Small. Unfortunately Morrison buys into this fallacy, but otherwise he understands Superman very well and All-Star was a beautiful remake of Edmond Hamilton's "The Last Days of Superman".

Tragically, though, Morrison is a Batman guy first, and great as he is, it shows.

I agree, it's a shame people are focusing on this instead of Paul Cornell's great conclusion to his Luthor story.

I thought Cornell's story was terrific, he really seems to get why Lex will never be Superman's equal.

You do realize that you share the same complaints with Superman with Miller. Blaming Miller for writers treating Superman harshly is like blaming Moore for turning superheroes dark because of Watchmen. Every time Batman chastises Superman I've must of read it differently than you. I've read as Batman grabbing Superman, trying to shake him back into reality. Shouting: "You're the god damn Superman. You're not a corporate clown/ Reagan's puppet. You're better than this. Now prove me right!"

Batman should never under any circumstances even consider daring to speak to Superman in such a manner, and Superman should never be depicted in a way that he would deserve to be spoken to in that way. Superman selling out is completely out of character. Superman places life and justice ahead of everything. His morals are as super as the rest of him. Miller has long conspired to portray Superman as a hypocrite and a puppet because he is a deconstructionist who hates superheroes and as Superman is the quintessential superhero he became Miller's top target.

After reading the Martha Washington stories I have no doubt that Miller's Superman would resemble the golden age version. His would stand up to social corruption and greed.

Miller's Superman is either a corporate and political sell-out and a ****e (DKR), or a weak puppet who only gains strength by embracing fascism (DKSR). There is no way that Superman would ever sell out, nor would he ever embrace Nietzsche's beliefs of the Übermensch as Miller has him do in DKSA. He also screws up in the same manner with Wonder Woman, by the way, showing that not only does he not understand Siegel and Shuster but that he also fails to understand Marston and Peter. Of course, to a massive misogynist like Miller, Wonder Woman is a nightmare character to be certain. Miller's portrayal of feminine women as either ****es or victims is disgusting. His only competent female characters are masculine like Martha Washington and Carrie Kelly.

Miller strikes me as one of those Ayn Rand nuts like Ditko and everything she was for Superman is 100% against. Even Ditko understood that superheroes should be super and heroic, however. But then again, Ditko crushes Miller in every conceivable manner anyway.

I didn't even know that Superman did this. I kind of glossed over the story. All I remember how fantastic the Luthor/Superman scenes were.

That story-especially when the POTUS organized and ordered the killing of Bin Laden just days later-really makes DC looks like the clueless idiots that they are. They really are not fit to handle Superman at this stage.
 
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I did not think the story was that bad. Not the worst Superman story i have ever read

Is everyone as excited to read Cornell's next Superman story arc as I am

Even if Doomsday is the villain I am sure it will still be fun
 
Miller's Batman is also very jealous of all the super powered heroes and he really seems to be wanting powers so he could make huge differences, we've seen in his cynical prime age he really is hating Superman and despises him to an insane level while also wanting Supes to make that real change in the world. I

I disagree. Batman is more... frustrated with heroes like Superman and Green Lantern because of what they could be doing with their powers. I don't think it's jealousy. He also doesn't hate Superman. He hates what he has become.
 
I disagree. Batman is more... frustrated with heroes like Superman and Green Lantern because of what they could be doing with their powers. I don't think it's jealousy. He also doesn't hate Superman. He hates what he has become.

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Somebody gets it! :awesome:

And rant time...

Miller hates superheroes? He sure has spent a great deal of his life writing and drawing them. He must be part of the cabal led by Fredric Wertham who created a number of sleeper agents that infiltrated the comic industry to destroy it years later. Now lets just continue to ignore Miller's depictions of Captain America, Captain Marvel, DKSA Barry Allen, Atom, Green Lantern, Big Guy, and his glowing introduction to one of volumes of Astro City. Hell, Dark Knight Strikes Again is a love letter to the superhero also extreme tongue in cheek satire turned up to 11. The entire last act is just about superheroes doing amazing things being great and saving the world.

Now ignore everything you now about continuity and about past characterizations. They are not important here or to the story. This is Miller's world, we just read it. Miller's Batman lives in a dystopic fascist world and wants to do the right thing but does not want to be a slave to the system. Batman is an outlaw and to make a dramatic narrative it would be great to have someone who is on the other end of the spectrum. A rivalry based on opposites is just an age old tool for telling a good story. Now who would be a great opposite to Batman? Gangbuster? Hawkman? No, someone that is about as iconic as Batman. Someone on his same symbolic level. How about the Superman! He wants to do good. He wants to help people but he can't do it without the being a tool. He doesn't want to become some outlaw or led a revolution he wants to be Superman. You can't tell Miller how to write his story. It doesn't matter to the story how Superman has been characterized. If this wasn't a Batman story than things would have been differently. Superman would be the usual Miller hero. A fighter of corruption and tyranny. That's what all of Miller's heroes have fought for.

I don't agree with Miller on most of his views. I'm not a believer of objectivism but I don't agree with Miller's viewpoint how he presents superheroes in his stories. It's a different take on the characters that I love and it is a lot more interesting and entertaining than most things published by the big two today.

I'm done...
 
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1233928590_citizen-kane-clapping.gif


Somebody gets it! :awesome:

And rant time...

Miller hates superheroes? He sure has spent a great deal of his life writing and drawing them. He must be part of the cabal led by Fredric Wertham who created a number of sleeper agents that infiltrated the comic industry to destroy it years later. Now lets just continue to ignore Miller's depictions of Captain America, Captain Marvel, DKSA Barry Allen, Atom, Green Lantern, Big Guy, and his glowing introduction to one of volumes of Astro City. Hell, Dark Knight Strikes Again is a love letter to the superhero also extreme tongue in cheek satire turned up to 11. The entire last act is just about superheroes doing amazing things being great and saving the world.

Now ignore everything you now about continuity and about past characterizations. They are not important here or to the story. This is Miller's world, we just read it. Miller's Batman lives in a dystopic fascist world and wants to do the right thing but does not want to be a slave to the system. Batman is an outlaw and to make a dramatic narrative it would be great to have someone who is on the other end of the spectrum. A rivalry based on opposites is just an age old tool for telling a good story. Now who would be a great opposite to Batman? Gangbuster? Hawkman? No, someone that is about as iconic as Batman. Someone on his same symbolic level. How about the Superman! He wants to do good. He wants to help people but he can't do it without the being a tool. He doesn't want to become some outlaw or led a revolution he wants to be Superman. You can't tell Miller how to write his story. It doesn't matter to the story how Superman has been characterized. If this wasn't a Batman story than things would have been differently. Superman would be the usual Miller hero. A fighter of corruption and tyranny. That's what all of Miller's heroes have fought for.

I don't agree with Miller on most of his views. I'm not a believer of objectivism but I don't agree with Miller's viewpoint how he presents superheroes in his stories. It's a different take on the characters that I love and it is a lot more interesting and entertaining than most things published by the big two today.

I'm done...

dont forget his run on Daredevil that was definitive
 
I disagree. Batman is more... frustrated with heroes like Superman and Green Lantern because of what they could be doing with their powers. I don't think it's jealousy. He also doesn't hate Superman. He hates what he has become.

I think it depends on which Batman that Frank Miller is writing. The Batman from the Dark Knight Returns is exactly what you say. However, the Batman from All-Star Batman & Robin, I kinda have to Drz on this one. The Batman in All-Star Batman & Robin is just so much more petty and immature as opposed to the more frustrated Batman that you mention in the Dark Knight Returns.
 
I wouldn't say Miller hates superheroes, but the fact that he writes them a lot doesn't necessarily mean much. Garth Ennis freely admits that he hates superheroes, yet he spends a lot of his time writing about them too... in order to rail against them and tear them down and show them at their absolute worst.
 
I wouldn't say Miller hates superheroes, but the fact that he writes them a lot doesn't necessarily mean much. Garth Ennis freely admits that he hates superheroes, yet he spends a lot of his time writing about them too... in order to rail against them and tear them down and show them at their absolute worst.

Even though he has a burning hatred for superheroes that man still loves Superman.
 
Not enough to spare his analogue in The Boys from participating in gang rape. ;)
 
The Batman in All-Star Batman & Robin is just so much more petty and immature as opposed to the more frustrated Batman that you mention in the Dark Knight Returns.

Aren't they one and the same? ASB is a younger (possibly less mature and more rash) version of The Dark Knight Returns Batman... it's all part of his growing tension towards his fellow costumed colleagues.
 
Parody is the highest form of flattery....even when you turn the Batman/Iron Man analogue into a chronic ****er. :o
 
I thought imitation was the highest form of flattery. Parody's just being a jerk. :oldrazz:
 
Aren't they one and the same? ASB is a younger (possibly less mature and more rash) version of The Dark Knight Returns Batman... it's all part of his growing tension towards his fellow costumed colleagues.

Yeah, but I see it more along the lines of Frank Miller being nowhere near the talented master he used to be. The Batman of Batman: Year One is the same Batman from All-Star Batman & Robin and The Dark Knight Returns and yet I can see Year One's Batman become the Batman from The Dark Knight Returns. Not so much with the Batman from All-Star Batman & Robin.

Year One's Batman was still very serious and very somber. He was still a person with a heart and sense of justice who even risked his life to save a cat and to pay for damages and stolen property of a building he broke into.

All-Star Batman & Robin's Batman on the other hand is ****ing psychopath. I don't think I need to go into detail onto why he feels nothing at all like the Batman from Year One and the Dark Knight Returns.
 
And rant time...

Miller hates superheroes? He sure has spent a great deal of his life writing and drawing them. He must be part of the cabal led by Fredric Wertham who created a number of sleeper agents that infiltrated the comic industry to destroy it years later. Now lets just continue to ignore Miller's depictions of Captain America, Captain Marvel, DKSA Barry Allen, Atom, Green Lantern, Big Guy, and his glowing introduction to one of volumes of Astro City. Hell, Dark Knight Strikes Again is a love letter to the superhero also extreme tongue in cheek satire turned up to 11. The entire last act is just about superheroes doing amazing things being great and saving the world.

He writes superheroes because that's where the money is. Most of SOTI was aimed at crime and horror comics, btw, in case you haven't read it, which every comics fan should.

The last act of DKSA is about Superman accepting his place as an Übermensch and moving to take over the world. His Captain Marvel was disgusting, as Captain Marvel should not age, and of course Miller had to kill him. Most of the other heroes were used as puppets in that POS story as the only thing he could come up with was "Luthor had their city/wife/whatever", because he is a one trick pony. And of course Superman cannot win without being a killer-which is the exact opposite of everything Superman stands for. So let's put it this way: Miller hates superheroes who are heroic, noble, moral, and value life, including the lives of their enemies. His treatment of Dick Grayson in DKSA is the single most disgusting thing I have ever seen in a comic with a male character. Of course Miller and other misogynists like him have treated female characters like crap for decades now, as evidenced by the women in refrigerators phenomenon.

And by the way, editorial dictate is the only reason he showed Cap any respect at all. His original Daredevil is the only good superhero work he's ever done, and even it's overrated. His second Daredevil sucked unless one hates women like Miller does and enjoys what he did to Karen Page in it.

I don't understand how Miller got to be so big a name to be honest. He's built his career on swiping others, be it Eisner, Kojima, Moebius, etc. To be honest, that's the only good thing about him since his popularity turned people on to those artists, who actually have talent. And Will did think a lot of him, and I do think Miller is a pretty fair storyteller-not in Eisner's league, of course, but he does understand sequential art even though his own art is all over the place in terms of style and quality. I don't completely HATE the guy, and as long as keeps his hands off superheroes-especially DC heroes and Superman in particular, I can give or take him.

Now ignore everything you now about continuity and about past characterizations.They are not important here or to the story. This is Miller's world, we just read it.

I find that idea disgusting. If Miller uses a character like Superman, then he should write Superman AS Superman, not some POS sellout with the \S/ shield on his chest. To me that is exploitation of Siegel and Shusters creation and disrespectful to them and their work. This isn't just some nothing character here, this is THE character that has made Frank Miller be able to have a career and a life. Without Superman, without Jerry Siegel's brilliance and without Joe Shuster's charming art and great costume design-Frank Miller is doing advertising art or something.


Miller's Batman lives in a dystopic fascist world and wants to do the right thing but does not want to be a slave to the system. Batman is an outlaw and to make a dramatic narrative it would be great to have someone who is on the other end of the spectrum. A rivalry based on opposites is just an age old tool for telling a good story. Now who would be a great opposite to Batman? Gangbuster? Hawkman? No, someone that is about as iconic as Batman. Someone on his same symbolic level. How about the Superman! He wants to do good. He wants to help people but he can't do it without the being a tool. He doesn't want to become some outlaw or led a revolution he wants to be Superman.

So Superman exists in Millers world as nothing but a foil and fall guy for his precious Bat-god. So it is worth it to make a completely unlikable version of Batman seem invincible so as to crap all over Superman. Nice. Superman is NOT and would NEVER be a tool. ANYONE who thinks that could happen knows NOTHING about the character.

Miller has pushed his agenda of Superman as a US government slave/puppet since 1983. Why? Because he doesn't know crap about Superman and doesn't care to learn. Had he knew anything about Superman and his history, he would know that Superman is a Godlike, transcendent figure, that his very presence on Earth has changed the world FOR THE BETTER, and that Superman's #1 priority at all times is the preservation of life. He would understand Superman's worldview: There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and that distinction is not very difficult to make.

You can't tell Miller how to write his story. It doesn't matter to the story how Superman has been characterized. If this wasn't a Batman story than things would have been differently. Superman would be the usual Miller hero. A fighter of corruption and tyranny. That's what all of Miller's heroes have fought for.

So how about I write a story where Spider-Man is a pedophile who eats the bodies of his 3 year old victims? After all, you can't tell me how to write my story, right?

If Miller is pasting his own personalities and motivations on characters, then they cease to be those characters and are just his original creations wearing famous costumes. He is exploiting the work and creations of other writers and artists to make his own stupid points. I just don't like that. I see these characters as sacred and I feel their creators should be shown respect by their creations being handled in a manner that is consistent with their intentions. That is a lot of why I feel the last 25 years of superhero comics in general and Superman in particular have been a failure.

I don't agree with Miller on most of his views. I'm not a believer of objectivism but I don't agree with Miller's viewpoint how he presents superheroes in his stories. It's a different take on the characters that I love and it is a lot more interesting and entertaining than most things published by the big two today.

I'm done...

First of all, I'm pretty sure that even with his limited knowledge/understanding of Superman, Miller can tell that Superman is built on the concept of altruism, and as an objectivist, Miller would see Superman as wrongheaded and soft at best, evil at most. So his hatred of Superman is due to his personal and political philosophy. I'm sure Miller sees Superman as a symbol of the welfare state.

Secondly, a lot of what the big two (DC especially) has done for the last 25 years and continue to do today is based on the deconstructionist schemes of people like Miller, Moore, Byrne, etc. I have no interest in grimdark comics. We live in a world of endless misery and suffering, and things seem to be getting worse and more hopeless. Heroic fantasy should be uplifting, it should make us feel better about the world, not worse. Superhero comics have consisted of DKR and Watchmen swipes for 25 years-it's beyond time for something different. I am so sick of the grimdark, violent, nerd soap opera crap comics have descended into that I could scream. It's especially unacceptable with Superman.
 
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