The Official Superman Thread

[TheCorpulent1]

"Ending Battle" is a de facto sequel to "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way?"

 

[Tron Bonne]

Wow, I didn't even know that much of his run had been collected in the past to begin with.

 

[Kurosawa]

This. There's a reason why, as Corp said, Brynes Superman didnt last. There's a reason why O Neil's Superman run didnt stick either. People assume that Superman's not popular because hes too powerful. BS. That's like saying MacGuyver shouldnt be a genius. The cool thing about Superman is that he IS that ****ing powerful....but still manages to tell tales of the human condition.

Exactly. Superman at his most powerful could move planets...but he can never control what other people choose to think, feel or do except by being an example and encouraging them to do for others. He can't fix how broken Lex is by his obsession with defeating him. Superman's most interesting conflicts to me involve morals and ethics-things he cannot change with his powers alone. From the very beginning a big theme in Superman comics has been the juxtaposition of his great powers against the dilemmas he faces.

"Do good to others and every man can be a Superman." - Superman (Clark Kent)

"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and that distinction is not very difficult to make."

These ideas are a huge part of what Superman is and should be about and even though the stories themselves have been up and down so far, this is why I applaud JMS for Grounded in concept at least. They are getting closer to being on the right track with Superman, and you've gotta start somewhere.

 

[Mystirious]

"Ending Battle" is a de facto sequel to "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way?"

It was a fab sequel to that comic

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Wow, I didn't even know that much of his run had been collected in the past to begin with.

In fairness, I think most of those only have like one or two issues that Kelly contributed to big crossovers. There were 4 Superman series at the time and like every 2 months they'd have some story that ran through all of them.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Ah, I see, so I guess the majority of his own stuff probably never got reprinted

 

[Comics N' Toons]

Ah, I see, so I guess the majority of his own stuff probably never got reprinted

That's right. For the same reason they won't reprint the entire Grant/Breyfogle run on Batman or do a Best Of [INSERT WRITER HERE] anthology.

So many stories I wish DC (and Marvel as well) would reprint but doesn't. (SECRET OF THE WAITING GRAVES - Batman's return to darkness from the camp era by Denny O'neil)

The reason: If it's not a MEGA EVENT, it doesn't get the reprint treatment. And sometimes when books are reprinted, they are done half-assed.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yep, DC's trade department sucks.

 

[Mystirious]

Ah, I see, so I guess the majority of his own stuff probably never got reprinted

Probably never will

 

[Kurosawa]

I guess they don't see a need to reprint stuff like that because it's not that old, relatively speaking. I would rather them print stuff that is extremely expensive then something you can just go to the local shop and pick up from back issues. Don't know that reprinting Grant/Breyfogyle Batman would make it so they couldn't reprint something like S&K Sandman anyway though...there's audiences for both. And even their current weak TPB policy keeps vital stuff like the Original Monster Society Of Evil serial from Captain Marvel Adventures from being reprinted when they know damn well there is demand for it.

 

[Comics N' Toons]

what annoys me is when they reprint the same arc or story over and over again (sometimes these stories aren't even good) and a lot of the stories we want as fans... don't see the light of day

 

[TruerToTheCore]

So many stories I wish DC (and Marvel as well) would reprint but doesn't. (SECRET OF THE WAITING GRAVES - Batman's return to darkness from the camp era by Denny O'neil)

I wouldn't overrate Denny O'Neil. The guy who made the big impact on Batman was Neal Adam's work and the reasons for the new found seriousness in the comics came from various facts; Bob Kane's contract with DC expired and Julie Schwartz decided to turn Batman back to the roots. Frank Robbins "hard-boiled"-styled stories also played a big part.

 

[The BatDude]

Denny O'Neil had a pretty good Superman run it's just overlooked cause he depowered Supes.

Even Elliot S! Maggin liked Denny's Superman.

Julie’s best writer, and the one he most trusted, was Denny O’Neil, who wrote Superman stories for about a year and hated them. He just abhorred the experience. Well he’s just so powerful, Denny kept whining. He did whine, honest. He was in his early thirties then and going through a heavy whining period. He’s stopped since. But he just couldn’t figure out what he wanted to do with Superman. In the course of not figuring this out, by the way, he wrote some of the best Superman stories we’d seen in years

 

[Kurosawa]

I wouldn't overrate Denny O'Neil. The guy who made the big impact on Batman was Neal Adam's work and the reasons for the new found seriousness in the comics came from various facts; Bob Kane's contract with DC expired and Julie Schwartz decided to turn Batman back to the roots. Frank Robbins "hard-boiled"-styled stories also played a big part.

Schwartz saved Batman by going back to his roots. DC has needed to do the same with Superman for years now.

 

[The Sage]

You know what I'd like? Something similar to the Batman Illustrated that captured Neil Adams' artwork. I'd like a Superman Illustrated that captures Curt Swan's work. I loved his style.

 

[Comics N' Toons]

Schwartz saved Batman by going back to his roots. DC has needed to do the same with Superman for years now.

And are they? I've heard that Strasynski is taking him back to the roots. True?

also, Schwartz is, in my opinion, the reason that DC still exists. Without him, the characters would have been lost and would have become irrelevant long ago.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Straczynski's telling small-scale stories that feature Superman relating to ordinary people. It's a start, although his first issue featured interactions ranging from pretty good to very heavy-handed. I'd personally be more inclined to stick with it if it were 1) shorter--12 issues is a lot for any direction as limited as "Grounded" automatically is--and 2) handled by someone I perceive as a more competent writer. JMS has moments that are downright great, but he also has a pretty consistent tendency to slow down and/or peter out toward the end of his runs. His Thor run, for example, started off quite well, got really good leading up to and including #600, and then was kind of bland and boring by the end.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Straczynski's telling small-scale stories that feature Superman relating to ordinary people. It's a start, although his first issue featured interactions ranging from pretty good to very heavy-handed. I'd personally be more inclined to stick with it if it were 1) shorter--12 issues is a lot for any direction as limited as "Grounded" automatically is--and 2) handled by someone I perceive as a more competent writer. JMS has moments that are downright great, but he also has a pretty consistent tendency to slow down and/or peter out toward the end of his runs. His Thor run, for example, started off quite well, got really good leading up to and including #600, and then was kind of bland and boring by the end.

His Thor run petered out because he was rushing to end it. If Marvel wasn't so intent on doing Siege (not that I blame them), I bet that if he wasn't still doing the book, that it would have ended just as great as it started.

Honestly, the pace of Thor really didn't bother me. Brubaker's Captain America and Fractions the Invincible Iron Man essentially feel like they go at the same pace. The problem is with books that have the pace of Captain America, Invincible Iron Man, and Thor need to come out on time because delays will make it feel like it'll drag on. Captain America and the Invincible Iron Man benefit from artists that come out on time. Thor had Copiel and Djurdjevic, who do not come out on time.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

The pace didn't bother me either. The fact that it seemed to lose all its steam after the Bor fight did. What does Siege have to do with Thor not showing an ounce of emotion after the love of his life returned--after he'd spent a couple issues pointedly agonizing over her loss earlier, no less? It seems more like JMS knew he was not long for the title once Siege was revealed, so he just started phoning it in. The quality really took a nosedive after the Bor subplot wrapped up, so I tend to view JMS' complaints about Siege as little more than an excuse for his own loss of interest and inability to write a decent story without some false sense of security that he doesn't work in a medium where he very well knows these events happen whenever a character is being primed for a big movie.

 

[hippie_hunter]

The pace didn't bother me either. The fact that it seemed to lose all its steam after the Bor fight did. What does Siege have to do with Thor not showing an ounce of emotion after the love of his life returned--after he'd spent a couple issues pointedly agonizing over her loss earlier, no less? It seems more like JMS knew he was not long for the title once Siege was revealed, so he just started phoning it in. The quality really took a nosedive after the Bor subplot wrapped up, so I tend to view JMS' complaints about Siege as little more than an excuse for his own loss of interest and inability to write a decent story without some false sense of security that he doesn't work in a medium where he very well knows these events happen whenever a character is being primed for a big movie.

JMS wanted no part of Siege so he left the book and wrapped up as fast as possible. Not that I blame Marvel for doing Siege, but the reason why JMS' run on Thor petered out at the end was because he was rushing. When you're rushing, you tend to not put in the finer details that makes everything go so smooth.

Just like how I don't blame Marvel for putting out Siege, I don't blame JMS for flat out leaving Thor and Marvel due to Siege. Civil War ruined his Amazing Spider-Man and Fantastic Four runs and One More Day was a disaster. Can you blame him for not wanting to take part in an event after ediorial and events have gotten in the way of his writing.

Both Marvel and JMS have legitimate viewpoints IMO.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Not to me. If JMS really wasn't interested in making even the slightest effort for those last few issues, I would've much rather seen him leave outright and have Gillen come in and finish up all his stories instead of just the Doom/Loki one. He did a great job on that one and I'm sure he would've done a better job on the others than the drek JMS turned in. I don't care that he left the book, my issue is with phoning in the last few issues after he'd already decided to leave.

Anyway, events are pretty standard at this point. Marvel gave him what he asked for with Thor, but you can't just steal a major character away and expect him to never interact with the rest of the universe. Plus, as I understand it, it's always an option left up to individual writers on the various series whether they actually want to tie their comics in. If they don't, Marvel usually releases a mini-series tie-in instead, letting everyone have their cake and eat it too. "One More Day" is fair; Joe Q stepped way over the line by basically shadow-writing the issues and still slapping JMS' name on them like he was actually responsible. But again, JMS knew what was coming and he knew it was terrible, so why not just leave the series outright before then?

Bottom line: Marvel was upfront about all of the events and JMS had adequate time to deal with the fact that they were coming. This wasn't a case like McDuffie on JLA, with DC editorial pulling the rug out from under him on a whim every other month and him doing his level best to play catch-up. Marvel works this s*** out like a year in advance. If JMS can't roll with the punches and put out something worth reading in a medium where continuity is such a big issue, that's a failing on his part. Trying to excuse it with complaints about how Marvel wouldn't let him play with their toys in exactly the way he wanted for years on end doesn't strike me as a particularly strong argument on his part.

 

[Comics N' Toons]

a little off current topic, but what about PANIC IN THE SKY? is that a good story? what's it like?

 

[Mystirious]

Straczynski's telling small-scale stories that feature Superman relating to ordinary people. It's a start, although his first issue featured interactions ranging from pretty good to very heavy-handed. I'd personally be more inclined to stick with it if it were 1) shorter--12 issues is a lot for any direction as limited as "Grounded" automatically is--and 2) handled by someone I perceive as a more competent writer. JMS has moments that are downright great, but he also has a pretty consistent tendency to slow down and/or peter out toward the end of his runs. His Thor run, for example, started off quite well, got really good leading up to and including #600, and then was kind of bland and boring by the end.

Not really enjoying Grounded so far

 

[Kurosawa]

You know what I'd like? Something similar to the Batman Illustrated that captured Neil Adams' artwork. I'd like a Superman Illustrated that captures Curt Swan's work. I loved his style.

Swan is the greatest Superman artist ever IMO. I would love to see such a book. And Superman Illustrated would be just the right title, because that's what Swan was-an illustrator.

a little off current topic, but what about PANIC IN THE SKY? is that a good story? what's it like?

It's good for the time and for what it is. Not a huge fan of that era of Superman myself.

And are they? I've heard that Strasynski is taking him back to the roots. True?

also, Schwartz is, in my opinion, the reason that DC still exists. Without him, the characters would have been lost and would have become irrelevant long ago.

JMS is trying and the idea is good-not the walk but the idea of Superman helping people on a personal level and exploring his social conscience. I just don't think he's quite able to pull it off.

 

[Iron Man]

Not really enjoying Grounded so far

Me either. I'm gonna give it one or two more issues before it's dropped.

JMS is trying and the idea is good-not the walk but the idea of Superman helping people on a personal level and exploring his social conscience. I just don't think he's quite able to pull it off.

I agree. I understand what he's trying to do, but he's just not quite getting it right.