The Official Zack Snyder Thread

[KyleDW2]

Oh God. Okay. Let's go through this one by one.

Superman would lead, inspire, and show that he was morally right...like he always did when he mattered.

Like he always did when it...okay, let's logic this thing out. Superman, one man who is the hero of Earth, not the hero of Krypton, must somehow hug it out with a planet full of ten thousand angry Kryptonians who not only have General Zod leading them and not only see Zod as the man who led them to rebuilding their home planet so would trust him over Superman, but also have just been granted all of Superman's powers with none of the decades of lessons about responsibility drilled into them. And beyond all that, we have a corrupt general building a massive Kryptonian killing army of magic and metahumans with Lex Luthor on hand to do whatever damage he can do.

And on the other hand you have humanity looking dead in the eye a massive, near unstoppable killing force of ten thousand people with the exact same power as Superman with none of his cheery disposition. Would these people calmly listen to Superman? Hell, would they listen to anyone?

What you are asking for is the impossible. Nobody, not even Superman, could stop Zod and Lane from twisting their respective factions into a war against each other. He just couldn't do it. That's not Superman failing. That's Superman running into the real world.

It's not the power, it's the ethics. Anyone who understands Superman knows this.

Its not about failing, its about the world we live in. Anyone who understands life knows this.

He would have correctly pointed out to them the folly of wars in Krypton's past, he absolutely would have prevented the massacre, and he would have exposed Luthor and General Ross (er, Lane) as the would-be butchers that they were.

And then they all would have gotten into a little love circle and sung camp fire songs while Superman and General Zod and Lex Luthor roasted marshmallows and laughed heartily about the error of their ways. And then Superman would get all the terrorists in the world to hug pandas and turn over a new leaf because gosh darn it, that's the kind of guy Superman is!

Give. Me. A. Break.

Superman should not be a loser.

No, according to you he should be an episode of Barney and Friends.

 

[Sawyer]

 

[KyleDW2]

You know, I'm starting to get that way about this thread myself. This isn't even what this thread is supposed to be about.

 

[C. Lee]

You know, I'm starting to get that way about this thread myself. This isn't even what this thread is supposed to be about.

I thought you would figure out eventualy that arguing with Kurosawa is a waste of time.

 

[KyleDW2]

I thought you would figure out eventualy that arguing with Kurosawa is a waste of time.

Its Saturday, I'm bored, why the hell not?

By the way, just to take advantage of an already dangerously derailed thread, how the hell do I put an avatar up? Because I so desperately want to put up an avatar.

 

[Motown Marvel]

You mean Super...man.

See, what they did here is put the man into Superman. And yeah, he has doubts and fears and failures. But look at things like Final Crisis. He helped raise an army of alternate universe Supermen to defeat Darkseid. He single handedly delivered the final blow...I think. And in Infinite Crisis he was the one that smashed Superboy-Prime through the red sun and beat the holy hell out of him. Superman still wins out in the end, its just harder for him. Thus, more entertaining. I want to see Superman get beaten every once in a while. It makes the struggle towards victory so much more entertaining.

i got not complaints about supermans portrayal in those two stories. particular final crisis. morrison writes a fantastic superman. while there are a lot of exampls over the past few years that define my point, the most notorious (and recent) example is JMS' Grounded storyline. i feel we get that kind of superman FAAAAAR more then Final crisis/All Star Superman, which is think is a far more accurate depiction of what superman should be.

 

[Kurosawa]

Oh God. Okay. Let's go through this one by one.



Like he always did when it...okay, let's logic this thing out. Superman, one man who is the hero of Earth, not the hero of Krypton, must somehow hug it out with a planet full of ten thousand angry Kryptonians who not only have General Zod leading them and not only see Zod as the man who led them to rebuilding their home planet so would trust him over Superman, but also have just been granted all of Superman's powers with none of the decades of lessons about responsibility drilled into them. And beyond all that, we have a corrupt general building a massive Kryptonian killing army of magic and metahumans with Lex Luthor on hand to do whatever damage he can do.

Pre-Crisis he damn well would have. He would have saved them from themselves even if it had killed him. That's what being the greatest superhero of all time is about. They might have his power, but they don't have his determination or his knowledge, nor do they have his brilliant mind. Pre-Crisis Superman won with his wits and his intellect moreso than with his powers. If you knew the character, you'd know that. Post-Crisis Superman relies completely on his powers...he's pretty stupid a lot of the time.

And on the other hand you have humanity looking dead in the eye a massive, near unstoppable killing force of ten thousand people with the exact same power as Superman with none of his cheery disposition. Would these people calmly listen to Superman? Hell, would they listen to anyone?

Yes, they would, because they trust Superman.

What you are asking for is the impossible. Nobody, not even Superman, could stop Zod and Lane from twisting their respective factions into a war against each other. He just couldn't do it. That's not Superman failing. That's Superman running into the real world.

Always with you it cannot be done. Yes, Superman could and would stop it. That's why he is so much greater than any other superhero, because he can do the things that other heroes cannot do or even fathom of doing.

Its not about failing, its about the world we live in. Anyone who understands life knows this.

We live in a world with flying supermen?

And then they all would have gotten into a little love circle and sung camp fire songs while Superman and General Zod and Lex Luthor roasted marshmallows and laughed heartily about the error of their ways. And then Superman would get all the terrorists in the world to hug pandas and turn over a new leaf because gosh darn it, that's the kind of guy Superman is!

No, Superman would have beaten Zod and Luthor and seen them brought to justice. Because he's a winner.

Give. Me. A. Break.



No, according to you he should be an episode of Barney and Friends.

And finally, how about you knock it off with the personal insults? You like a flawed Superman who fails. You want a Marvelized character. I like a Superman who inspires and is an iconic DC character. We differ in opinons, but there's no reason to get snarky. So quit it.

 

[KyleDW2]

And finally, how about you knock it off with the personal insults? You like a flawed Superman who fails. You want a Marvelized character. I like a Superman who inspires and is an iconic DC character. We differ in opinons, but there's no reason to get snarky. So quit it.

But without my snark I am nothing.

Seriously, I just don't get it. I am physically and mentally unable to understand how someone could possibly want a character who cannot fail, nor has any difficulty doing even the largest of tasks. What you want isn't a character. What you want is a living morality lesson. And I just cannot grasp that kind of opinion. It is beyond me.

But hey, I should probably quit arguing this now. From the way it looks, I'm gonna get the post-Crisis Superman I want in the new film, so what am I doing the high intensity whining thing? Honestly, I can't wait to see the Superman I grew up with on film instead of Donner's Superman.

 

[Kurosawa]

But without my snark I am nothing.

You said it, I didn't.

Seriously, I just don't get it. I am physically and mentally unable to understand how someone could possibly want a character who cannot fail, nor has any difficulty doing even the largest of tasks. What you want isn't a character. What you want is a living morality lesson. And I just cannot grasp that kind of opinion. It is beyond me.

We finally agree.

But hey, I should probably quit arguing this now. From the way it looks, I'm gonna get the post-Crisis Superman I want in the new film, so what am I doing the high intensity whining thing? Honestly, I can't wait to see the Superman I grew up with on film instead of Donner's Superman.

You are really wrong if you think that. I do like to see Superman challenged and I do like to see him struggle. I just like to see him struggle and WIN. And Donner's Superman is NOT the Pre-Crisis Superman. If anything, he inspired the Post-Crisis version, with the heavy emphasis on the farm and the overdone Boy Scout naivete. Donner's Clark was a parody, but his Superman was similar in some ways to what Byrne ended up doing and his Krypton was hideous like Byrne's horrid Krypton.

If it's the Superman you grew up with, it will fail. Because that version has always failed and only succeeded when a faux Hulk beat him to death in Jurgens "Death of Superman".

 

[JAK®]

Yeah, when people use 'Donner Superman' and 'Pre-Crisis' interchangeably that just proves they have no experience or understanding of that era.

 

[idrnkurmlkshks]

They all mean 'Ridiculous Superman' because back then Superman was blowing out suns with sneezes and rotating Earth backwards to reverse time. I think it's fair to label pre-Byrne Supes interchangeably like that.

 

[El Payaso]

I'm fairly sure Zack Snyder wouldn't want the perfect, completely and 100% confident Superman to be the focus of the new movie. And I'm also fairly sure that Chris Nolan wouldn't see that concept as the one which would get Superman off the ground again, nor would David Goyer write such a character.

No director would want a character who doesn't ever fail. That would be the most boring thing ever with little to no room for development. The character's gonna develop and grow based on what? Constant success and balance?

You like a flawed Superman who fails. You want a Marvelized character. I like a Superman who inspires and is an iconic DC character. We differ in opinons, but there's no reason to get snarky. So quit it.

Excuse me? Since when Marvel owns the monopoly of flawed characters?

I like a Superman who inspires and is an iconic DC character.

Which doesn't contradict the former. Batman fails and is flawed, Batman is iconic DC.

 

[KyleDW2]

Which doesn't contradict the former. Batman fails and is flawed, Batman is iconic DC.

Hell, Batman's the guy that created the O.M.A.C.'s. Infinite Crisis is partly his fault. That's a pretty big fail. Doesn't seem to stop people from liking him. In fact, the reasons behind that particular failure added a great deal to his character, especially as Bruce learned the lessons behind those failures throughout the story.

 

[JAK®]

They all mean 'Ridiculous Superman' because back then Superman was blowing out suns with sneezes and rotating Earth backwards to reverse time. I think it's fair to label pre-Byrne Supes interchangeably like that.

No, it isn't.

 

[JAK®]

No director would want a character who doesn't ever fail. That would be the most boring thing ever with little to no room for development. The character's gonna develop and grow based on what? Constant success and balance?

You've made a mental leap from "confident, successfully capable superhero" to "all powerful god of perfection". Superman lasted 50 years despite being, according to you, the most boring thing ever.

All Star Superman showed how a Superman that is absurdly powerful and gets thing done can be a compelling character.

 

[GreenKToo]

Its Saturday, I'm bored, why the hell not?

By the way, just to take advantage of an already dangerously derailed thread, how the hell do I put an avatar up? Because I so desperately want to put up an avatar.

You gotta have like 500 posts ( i think its 500) before you can get one.

 

[Kurosawa]

Elliot S! Maggin, who is my favorite Superman writer of all time, nailed it perfectly as per the power=boredom canard:

Julie’s original plan - his perennial fallback position, as it turns out – was just to give the character to his best available people and let them show him what to do with him. Julie’s best writer, and the one he most trusted, was Denny O’Neil, who wrote Superman stories for about a year and hated them. He just abhorred the experience. Well he’s just so powerful, Denny kept whining. He did whine, honest. He was in his early thirties then and going through a heavy whining period. He’s stopped since. But he just couldn’t figure out what he wanted to do with Superman. In the course of not figuring this out, by the way, he wrote some of the best Superman stories we’d seen in years - the Sandman series. But his approach was simply to reduce Superman’s powers and see if he could deal better with him that way. It simply didn’t work. The point of Superman is that he’s virtually omnipotent and has mishigass anyway. That’s what Carlin never understood about the character, as it happens. His conflict is rarely over not having enough power. It’s over dilemmas. This is a character who, rather than growing less powerful as he ages, only grows more so. That was one of the aspects that attracted me to Mark Waid’s notion of how to develop him for Kingdom Come. His growing conflict is not over power, but over right and wrong.

 

[Willi Berg]

I find this debate really interesting and informative!

 

[BH/HHH]

As far as a poweful Superman goes I like the idea that his powers increase as he gets older. Kingdom Come Superman is what becomes of Superman after all those years of soaking in the rays of the Yellow sun so I would like to see him start at the power level he is in Superman TAS and become more powerful as each film goes on.

 

[Kurosawa]

If Snyder is capable, then, and I think he is, then he will make a film that, while having the awesome visuals/action he is known for, it will also be a more positive spin on the questions of right and wrong that were posed in Watchmen. That Superman is a moral, ethical, compassionate and understanding man who is in a world where those ideals seem more and more rare. His objective should be for the viewer to leave the theater entertained, of course, but also aware of the idea that they can treat people better, be more considerate and compassionate, and in the process make their own lives better.

 

[KyleDW2]

You gotta have like 500 posts ( i think its 500) before you can get one.

Aw hell's bells...

Well, might as well keep up with this debate. I need the posts.

 

[KyleDW2]

You've made a mental leap from "confident, successfully capable superhero" to "all powerful god of perfection". Superman lasted 50 years despite being, according to you, the most boring thing ever.

All Star Superman showed how a Superman that is absurdly powerful and gets thing done can be a compelling character.

All Star Superman also showed us a one shot version of the character that I don't think could possibly exist as a continuing character, which is what I think the movies should be. A series.

Its like saying that Batman movies should be based on Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns universe. Sure, its fun to visit a Batman world based on the dark and uber-violent pulp novels and to completely deconstruct our favorite DC heroes. But that isn't what Batman is normally. We couldn't take a long running series of that. See All Star Batman & Robin.

 

[Willi Berg]

If Snyder is capable, then, and I think he is, then he will make a film that, while having the awesome visuals/action he is known for, it will also be a more positive spin on the questions of right and wrong that were posed in Watchmen. That Superman is a moral, ethical, compassionate and understanding man who is in a world where those ideals seem more and more rare. His objective should be for the viewer to leave the theater entertained, of course, but also aware of the idea that they can treat people better, be more considerate and compassionate, and in the process make their own lives better.

In Watchmen, Dr. Manhattan was the superpowered superhero, yet, as a character, he became more and more distant and indifferent. But in Superman, Snyder will have a character who is inherently more "positive", so I agree, it will likely have a more positive spin because of the nature of the character.

Though in what context the story places Superman, we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Elliot S! Maggin, who is my favorite Superman writer of all time, nailed it perfectly as per the power=boredom canard:

This pretty much sounds right. It's about Superman dealing with the problems but as his regular super powered self. How does someone like that deal with these problems? That's very interesting.

 

[craigdbfan]

If Snyder is capable, then, and I think he is, then he will make a film that, while having the awesome visuals/action he is known for, it will also be a more positive spin on the questions of right and wrong that were posed in Watchmen. That Superman is a moral, ethical, compassionate and understanding man who is in a world where those ideals seem more and more rare. His objective should be for the viewer to leave the theater entertained, of course, but also aware of the idea that they can treat people better, be more considerate and compassionate, and in the process make their own lives better.

While I don't enjoy seeing Clark/Superman with constant self doubt and I agree with you that he should be the pinnacle of what a good man should be the reasoning behind this shouldn't be his desire to just "fit in with humanity" angle. Thats what's made the character really "boring" or out of character with comic book and Superman fans alike I believe in recent years.

Rather I'd like it if Snyder makes it clear that the reason why he is so "perfect" which everyone seems to dislike around here is because he isn't from this planet, its often forgotten but he isn't human folks. The reason why he is able to uphold all the ideals that humans created but so often break is because of whatever is already hardwired into his species. As a whole Kryptonians demonstrated a deep reverence to science and logic which is clear in their culture.

That would be the greatest point to reinforce throughout the film. On how an alien can be a far better example of what a human can be than even a human could ever dream of being.

Thats where he gets his confidence and decisiveness. I don't want to see a depressed Superman full of self doubt at every corner or getting his ass kicked repeatedly to the point that he just doesn't seem so "Super" anymore.