Comics tHE pHOENIX ENDSONG WAS AMAZING

[Exploding Boy]

I lvoe that one panel with the Phoenix Force coming towards Emma.

 

[Valechan]

Like I said before, the art was outstanding. Pity the next crapsong doesn't have the same artist.

There was a great Emma pic on issue 4 I think, where she si semi-crouching and using her psychic powers, extending her hands.

 

[Bastila]

Yeah so cool and scary as well.

I really love reading that, what about when Scott glasses are broke and his got his optical blast shoting though.

And the picture or Phoenix using his blast saying more or somthing, thats a great image.

 

[Valechan]

Av ery great one is also Scott's dream, on issue 1, with all the Jeans behind him, that was magnific.

 

[Bastila]

Yeah that was great it was nice to see all different ones as well.

 

[Xplicit Content]

Question: I ordered the compilation off Amazon just now. I just had one question. I understand that the Phoenix situation has been "fixed" so that Jean is Phoenix, like she was intended to be. How are they explaining the fact that the force has been around since creation and Jean wasn't born until 20-30 years ago? Did Phoenix just not have a human avatar for all that time? Sorry if it's a loaded question, I'm just having a discussion about this with someone right now.

 

[Intheknow101]

Question: I ordered the compilation off Amazon just now. I just had one question. I understand that the Phoenix situation has been "fixed" so that Jean is Phoenix, like she was intended to be. How are they explaining the fact that the force has been around since creation and Jean wasn't born until 20-30 years ago? Did Phoenix just not have a human avatar for all that time? Sorry if it's a loaded question, I'm just having a discussion about this with someone right now.

THe white hot toom is outside of space and time. When Jean dies, she shatters into billions of pieces. THe pieces are supposed to come back and reform, but not all the pieces make it back "home." On their way back to reform with Jean, they can possess others. The cyclical nature of the white hot room, which encompasses what has happened, what is happening, and what will happen is what allows Jean to always be Jean and always be Phoenix. It's very metaphysical.

Also they've established that Jean has a very definitive cycle. She often creates spares.
1) When she died for the first time on the shuttle she created a new body for herself and left her old body to heal in Jamaica bay just in case things go wrong, as a "second chance."

2) Upon killing herself on the moon, the shattered pieces went back to the body in the bay. Jean intially rejected the tainted parts of her, which went off to reanimate Madylene. The Fantastic Four prematurely awoken her. Jean was stronger, but was missing her telepathy. Upon Maddie's death Jean reabsorbed that part of herself.

3) Finally her last death in New X-Men 150, caused her pieces and essence to go to a spare egg/coccoon that she had created on the moon. With no one to awaken her she is in there for 150 years until the Dark Beast awakens her. Here we learn that the incubation process is very important, and that awaking her early leaves her without all of her memories and powers. It makes sense since there are many of her pieces that haven't come back to her, many of which contain certain memories or experiences.

The cycle encompasses many of aspects of mythological phoenix lore, as well as Kabbalistic influences. It rocks!

 

[Xplicit Content]

Thanks..that's deep...they could create a college course on this, haha. I started and stopped reading the comics back when they were writing the Phoenix and Jean as being seperate, so I've been trying to wrap my head around all the new developments in the books. I'm looking forward to getting Endsong...it'll probably help me a lot. What's the significance of Elaine birthing Jean if Phoenix has existed since creation? For example, if Elaine gave birth to Jean in 1975 (hypothetically...just assuming Jean is around 30), what was going on with the Phoenix in 1974?

 

[BrianWilly]

Well, my understanding is that the true form of the Phoenix just wouldn't have been "complete" in 1974.

The duty of the Phoenix is to judge the state of the universe, "burning away what doesn't work," and thus ensure that the universe goes on functioning safely. But the Phoenix Force is just that, a force; it has no personality of its own and no desire beyond the desire to feel desire (say that five times fast!). In fact, it usually can't even manifest itself without the aid of a mortal host. Even if the Phoenix Force is the original spark at the dawn of creation and the ultimate fire that will eventually consume existence, it's just not a person any more than magnetism is a person or the Big Bang was a person.

So how can a cosmic force act as the judge, jury, and executioner of the entire universe? This is where Jean Grey comes in, as the "person" aspect of this equation. Call it destiny or blind fortune or what have you, it just so happens that the omega mutant telepath/telekine Jean Grey of Earth is the ultimate, perfect avatar for the Phoenix Force to embody in order to carry out its work (in this 616 reality, at least). Sublime calls her the ultimate mutation...that is, evolution has placed her at the pinnacle of sentient life, capable of perfectly accessing the most primal and most infinite power in the universe.

Did the Phoenix Force merely wait until its avatar, this perfect "other half" of itself, was born through the random processes of evolution...or was she specifically created by the Force itself to act as its physical self? It's hard to say -- my own opinion is that the course of evolution in all universes would always eventually create this perfect Phoenix avatar and that in our universe it turned out to be Jean -- but the end result is the same: Jean Grey is the Phoenix, the one who embodies the Phoenix Force.

So actually, the question of what exactly Phoenix did before Jean was born is a bit misleading; technically, even though the Phoenix Force has been around forever, the Phoenix was only ever truly born when Jean was.

When Jean's human personality is dominant, she wears the familiar green costume. When the passion and power of the Phoenix Force takes over and overwhelms Jean's humane aspect, she wears the red costume of the Dark Phoenix. Neither one of these forms is truly capable of performing the duty of the Phoenix; the human Jean Phoenix doesn't understand this duty enough, and the Dark Phoenix doesn't have human understanding to control what she burns and doesn't burn. Thus, we end up with tragedies like the time Dark Phoenix ate that sun and killed an entire alien planet.

When both Jean and the Phoenix Force are in complete utter harmony with each other, however, they become the White Phoenix of the Crown, wearing the rarely-seen white costume. This is the true form of the Phoenix in this universe, the one true vessel to carry out its work of fixing the universe when it doesn't work anymore.

Wow, that was a much longer ramble than I had originally intended. Hope that cleared things up.

 

[Cyclops]

Yeah, this really needed its own thread. Hoo-boy, did it ever. Wheeee-oo.

So... when will sebita turn it into a Phoenix vs. Storm thread? Or has he already and I just didn't notice?

 

[Bastila]

One of my favouite moments of Endsong.

Just love the picture such a powerful picture.

 

[roach]

it is my understanding that the Phoenix and the Phoenix force are two separate things. While Jean and the Phoenix are one the Phoenix force is her weapon to wield(kind of like a Jedi and the Force). This would also make it possible for others to wield the Phoenix force(like Rachel). In the back up issue to Classic X-men(the one to deal with Jean's first death) Death(in the form of a builder) tells Jean that the phoenix force is the birthright of her children also.

 

[Harlekin]

Phoenix Endsong was up to snuff in the art department, true. The story department was a tad weaker, although still quite strong.

 

[Valechan]

Yeah, this really needed its own thread. Hoo-boy, did it ever. Wheeee-oo.

So... when will sebita turn it into a Phoenix vs. Storm thread? Or has he already and I just didn't notice?

Nah... I got bored of always arguing the same things... I know Ororo is the best there is and I care nothing if anyone thinks otherwise. I have my own Ororo thread to worship her now

(ps: Ororo won 3 fights, Jean won 2, Ororo rules )

I do like that pic of Jean emerging from the snow, that Greg Land is one heckuva penciler.

 

[Intheknow101]

Well, my understanding is that the true form of the Phoenix just wouldn't have been "complete" in 1974.

The duty of the Phoenix is to judge the state of the universe, "burning away what doesn't work," and thus ensure that the universe goes on functioning safely. But the Phoenix Force is just that, a force; it has no personality of its own and no desire beyond the desire to feel desire (say that five times fast!). In fact, it usually can't even manifest itself without the aid of a mortal host. Even if the Phoenix Force is the original spark at the dawn of creation and the ultimate fire that will eventually consume existence, it's just not a person any more than magnetism is a person or the Big Bang was a person.

So how can a cosmic force act as the judge, jury, and executioner of the entire universe? This is where Jean Grey comes in, as the "person" aspect of this equation. Call it destiny or blind fortune or what have you, it just so happens that the omega mutant telepath/telekine Jean Grey of Earth is the ultimate, perfect avatar for the Phoenix Force to embody in order to carry out its work (in this 616 reality, at least). Sublime calls her the ultimate mutation...that is, evolution has placed her at the pinnacle of sentient life, capable of perfectly accessing the most primal and most infinite power in the universe.

Did the Phoenix Force merely wait until its avatar, this perfect "other half" of itself, was born through the random processes of evolution...or was she specifically created by the Force itself to act as its physical self? It's hard to say -- my own opinion is that the course of evolution in all universes would always eventually create this perfect Phoenix avatar and that in our universe it turned out to be Jean -- but the end result is the same: Jean Grey is the Phoenix, the one who embodies the Phoenix Force.

So actually, the question of what exactly Phoenix did before Jean was born is a bit misleading; technically, even though the Phoenix Force has been around forever, the Phoenix was only ever truly born when Jean was.

When Jean's human personality is dominant, she wears the familiar green costume. When the passion and power of the Phoenix Force takes over and overwhelms Jean's humane aspect, she wears the red costume of the Dark Phoenix. Neither one of these forms is truly capable of performing the duty of the Phoenix; the human Jean Phoenix doesn't understand this duty enough, and the Dark Phoenix doesn't have human understanding to control what she burns and doesn't burn. Thus, we end up with tragedies like the time Dark Phoenix ate that sun and killed an entire alien planet.

When both Jean and the Phoenix Force are in complete utter harmony with each other, however, they become the White Phoenix of the Crown, wearing the rarely-seen white costume. This is the true form of the Phoenix in this universe, the one true vessel to carry out its work of fixing the universe when it doesn't work anymore.

Wow, that was a much longer ramble than I had originally intended. Hope that cleared things up.

It's also interesting to note that the same glowy gold woman form Jean imagined on the space shuttle to rationalize her experience is the same gold woman form she herself takes in the HCT timeline. Was a future version of herself, "waiting for herself to arrive?"

 

[Harlekin]

Wow, way to go Brian. That really made sense.

 

[Xplicit Content]

Thanks Brian...you definately covered all the bases! The art on Endsong does look fantastic though.

 

[Mike059jig]

Great read and sad...that They had jean come back the good so sadly..the last scene between jean and cyclops was precious

 

[Morphius DOH]

How many encarnations of the Phoenix story is there since the start of the X-Men? Did the killing of Scott, by Phoenix, barrowed from any of these various encarnations of the story? If so, does he ever come back somehow, some way?

I haven't been able to afford all the differents comics that contain the stories.

 

[Optic Rage]

OK while we are on the subject

How the hell did maddie come back??...and were is she now?

 

[Intheknow101]

How many encarnations of the Phoenix story is there since the start of the X-Men? Did the killing of Scott, by Phoenix, barrowed from any of these various encarnations of the story? If so, does he ever come back somehow, some way?

I haven't been able to afford all the differents comics that contain the stories.

In canon Jean has never killed Scott. However there is a What if, where she kills bascially everyone including Scott and than destroys the whole universe.

 

[Intheknow101]

OK while we are on the subject

How the hell did maddie come back??...and were is she now?

Maddie came back because X-Man (Nate Grey) was trying to reach out and find Jean. He ended up reaching Maddie's psionic ghost on the astral plane. Turns out she ended up using his powers to create a physical body for herself. After she had grown enough strength, she didn't need it anymore, so she became independent of him. And then somewhere along the way it's revealed that this Maddie was actually killed and replaced by an alternate reality Jean Grey called Queen Jean.

Maddie does appear in in X-Men the End, and it's shown that she's a part of Jean. Although the End isn't canon, this particular instance is because it was one of Jean's shattered fragments that gave life to a lifeless body.

 

[Optic Rage]

more confusing crap....

Yeh i just finished #6 of the end......pretty good ending to such a poor series.

How the hell was logan alive at the end????

 

[Intheknow101]

more confusing crap....

Yeh i just finished #6 of the end......pretty good ending to such a poor series.

How the hell was logan alive at the end????

Dunno. lol. Claremont's stories sometimes just have people come out of nowhere.

 

[Optic Rage]

yeh...full of plot holes..

i cant wait untill the guy is done with the x-men...

Still love his older stuff tough.