The Polygamy Scandal

In response to SentinelMind, I do not personally believe in polygamy or polyamorous or open relationships, and I take relationships and monogamy seriously.

But I think plenty of one on one marriages are circuses.

I morally disagree with polygamy and open relationships, but laws should be decided on a legal, not moral, basis, as morality is subjective. While most everyone here might agree that murder and theft is wrong, issues like homosexuality, abortion, polygamy, birth control, etc are far more controversial.

As I said, at the bottom line marriage is a legal contract issued by the government, and adults should be able to enter into a legal contract with anyone they want.
 
Also, even if you can argue that people in a polygamist relation ship don't take their marriage seriously, how does it hurt people who do take their marriage seriously? How does it do that at all? I take my appearance pretty seriously. I put a lot of time end effort into picking out clothes and outfits I like. Other people are slobs and will wear anything. That doesn't hurt me in the slightest. I take comic books seriously. Other people are casual fans or think they're lame. Doesn't hurt me at all. I take my high school seriously, I'm very proud of having gone there and I do what I can to support it as an alumni. Other people who went there don't. Doesn't effect me at all.

So how does polygamy hurt people who aren't polygamists?

Scenario 1:

Billy at playground: I have three moms!

john: oh yeah...well I have five moms..

Billy: No fair!! Dad better marry some more moms




Scenario 2:

Husband: I want another wife

Wife 1: Ok..

Wife 2: Absolutely not.

Husband: Why not?

Wife 2: You said it would only be the three of of us.

Husband: I want another one.

Wife 2: I forbid it

Husband: Well, she'd be marrying me..not you.

Wife 2: She'd be marrying all three of us.

Husband: I disagree...

Wife 2: I object...I won't allow it..

Husband: Wait...do I even need your permission?

Wife 1: That's a good question..

Wife 2: We all have to agree...thats how marriage works!!!

Husband: Are you sure...can't it be 2 out of 3 be ok?

Lawyer <grinning>: I think we all need to sit down...





Scenario 3:

Cop: You have to pay child support

Dad: But I was the second husband...not the biological father.

Cop: That's not what the birth certificate says.

Dad: It only had two spots...I was generous at the time...but I wasn't ready to be a dad. Look for the other guy.

Cop: We can't find him..we can find you.

Dad: It isn't fair...its so unfair.
 
In all seriousness, polygamy makes marriage into a joke because it diminishes the value of commitment. IT now opens all existing marriages to the option and temptation of adding more partners to an existing and creating numerous legal problems when now three or more people have disagreements. How does property get divided if one wants a divorce? Who's consent is required to add another partner? Do you need just the spouse or all the existing partners? What about raising kids? Does the extra spouses now have legal rights to children they didn't give birth to? What value is there in creating that type of circus? Marriage is an institution that serves to protect fabric of society...not just some contract thrown around for giggles.
 
As I said, at the bottom line marriage is a legal contract issued by the government, and adults should be able to enter into a legal contract with anyone they want.

We have a right to define terms and benefits and responsibilities of all contracts that recognize bonds between two people. If society deems it inappropriate to recognize polygamous relationships, that is a valid reason to prohibit it. You don't have a right to create any government recognition status you want and call it marriage.
 
I think the biggest problem we would run into with legalizing polygamy would be divorce. What would each spouse be entitled to? Could one spouse divorce the rest, or would we need to dissolve the whole group? Not only that, but you would also need laws to regulate it. For example, we couldn't let one half of the original couple marry a second without consent from the other.

I wish I read this first...you're right..you're creating a whole litany of legal conflicts that will fill up our civil court rooms. For what? For giggles? This entitlement that you have a right to do whatever I want regardless of consequences and have government sanction and approve it and provide benefits for it. yeah.
 
Society once deemed slavery appropriate and interracial marriages inappropriate. Laws should not be decided solely on the basis of what society thinks.

But as I said, I don't personally approve of polygamy or polyamorous relationships. I'm just playing devils advocate.
 
I personally would love to see Polygamy be discussed in a political sense just for the fact you can't use the bible to argue against it(I would love to see how the religious conservatives tried to wiggle there way out of that one). lol

But as I said, I don't personally approve of polygamy or polyamorous relationships. I'm just playing devils advocate.

I personally could care less one way or another, but I generally will side on the choice of choice as long as it doesn't hurt anybody involved directly.
 
Scenario 1:

Billy at playground: I have three moms!

john: oh yeah...well I have five moms..

Billy: No fair!! Dad better marry some more moms

Why would that scenario even matter? It's just little kids talking.


Scenario 2:

Husband: I want another wife

Wife 1: Ok..

Wife 2: Absolutely not.

Husband: Why not?

Wife 2: You said it would only be the three of of us.

Husband: I want another one.

Wife 2: I forbid it

Husband: Well, she'd be marrying me..not you.

Wife 2: She'd be marrying all three of us.

Husband: I disagree...

Wife 2: I object...I won't allow it..

Husband: Wait...do I even need your permission?

Wife 1: That's a good question..

Wife 2: We all have to agree...thats how marriage works!!!

Husband: Are you sure...can't it be 2 out of 3 be ok?

Lawyer <grinning>: I think we all need to sit down...

Again, so what? It's not like marital disputes don't already exist.


Scenario 3:

Cop: You have to pay child support

Dad: But I was the second husband...not the biological father.

Cop: That's not what the birth certificate says.

Dad: It only had two spots...I was generous at the time...but I wasn't ready to be a dad. Look for the other guy.

Cop: We can't find him..we can find you.

Dad: It isn't fair...its so unfair.

That doesn't even make any sense? Why would someone who's not a child's biological father put his name down on the birth certificate if the biological father is still in the picture?

In all seriousness, polygamy makes marriage into a joke because it diminishes the value of commitment. IT now opens all existing marriages to the option and temptation of adding more partners to an existing and creating numerous legal problems when now three or more people have disagreements. How does property get divided if one wants a divorce? Who's consent is required to add another partner? Do you need just the spouse or all the existing partners? What about raising kids? Does the extra spouses now have legal rights to children they didn't give birth to? What value is there in creating that type of circus? Marriage is an institution that serves to protect fabric of society...not just some contract thrown around for giggles.

In what way does it diminish the value of commitment? How does three people being in a polygamous relationship in any way effect the value of the commitment between two people in a traditional marriage?

All of the things you mentioned are significant logistical issues, but their logistical issues that effect the individuals in a polygamous relationship, and not anyone else. If people choose to have to deal with those logistical issues because they feel it's worth it, that's their choice. It wouldn't effect the marriages of others. Legalizing polygamy wouldn't force everyone else to have polygamous relationships, and I doubt it would grow significantly in popularity. Most people wouldn't want it. Most people wouldn't like it. It's outside of their cultural context and comfort zone.

What's the value in creating that kind of circus? Some people want it. Some people feel it would enrich their lives. And no one would have to buy tickets to that circus if they don't want to.

I ask you:

1: What does protecting the fabric of society mean?

2: How does marriage accomplish this?

3: How would polygamy weaken or erode marriages ability to protect the fabric of society?


If society deems it inappropriate to recognize polygamous relationships, that is a valid reason to prohibit it.

No it's not. That's a terrible reason to recognize something. Society deems a lot of things that are completely harmless as inappropriate. Society used to deem interracial marriages as inappropriate. Things should only be prohibited if society deems them inappropriate for reasons that make sense.
 
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In what way does it diminish the value of commitment? How does three people being in a polygamous relationship in any way effect the value of the commitment between two people in a traditional marriage?

It sends the intrinsic message to other committed couples and children growing up that if their marriage doesn't work out, they can just find another spouse. It adds further temptation to erode existing marriage vows like easy divorce and welfare. If you can always add another spouse, there is no presumption of commitment in other people's marriages. Society will evolve based on legal framework in place, so its reasonable to assume society to encourage straight couples to add more spouses to an existing straight couple relationship.
 
I personally would love to see Polygamy be discussed in a political sense just for the fact you can't use the bible to argue against it(I would love to see how the religious conservatives tried to wiggle there way out of that one). lol

Easy, (assuming we're talking about the Bible and not Book of Mormon), its a sin to have more than one spouse...just because certain individuals in the Bible chose to behave that way doesn't mean God approved of it. The Bible is filled with sinners.
 
Society once deemed slavery appropriate and interracial marriages inappropriate. Laws should not be decided solely on the basis of what society thinks..

You're comparing polygamy rights to end of slavery or introduction of interracial marriage?

If so, is it fair for me to compare gay marriage to incest marriage?
Aren't all the arguments all the same?
 
No it's not. That's a terrible reason to recognize something. Society deems a lot of things that are completely harmless as inappropriate. Society used to deem interracial marriages as inappropriate. Things should only be prohibited if society deems them inappropriate for reasons that make sense.

If society isn't the one who gets to decide social institutions, then who does? Academic elites? I'm disturbed by the arrogant elitism that exists from the Left when it comes to their view on social engineering. They think every new type of relationship should be rewarded and celebrated in the classroom, regardless of their social impact.
 
. Most people wouldn't want it. Most people wouldn't like it. It's outside of their cultural context and comfort zone.

Of course that would change if it were legalized. Obviously some people will consider it once it became legal and there will be support groups to further legitimize that type of relationship. Its naive to think otherwise. Changing these type of institutions is a means to advance social engineering. Children who have not been taught tradition will now start looking towards these fringe relationships as acceptable. That's the whole point.
 
It sends the intrinsic message to other committed couples and children growing up that if their marriage doesn't work out, they can just find another spouse.

That's already the case. It's currently entirely legal to get remarried if your first marriage fails.

It adds further temptation to erode existing marriage vows like easy divorce and welfare. If you can always add another spouse, there is no presumption of commitment in other people's marriages. Society will evolve based on legal framework in place, so its reasonable to assume society to encourage straight couples to add more spouses to an existing straight couple relationship.

It's not reasonable to assume that at all. Just having it be legal wouldn't mean it would be beneficial for society to encourage it.

1: I think you're assuming that it's much easier to find someone who wants to marry you than it is. Most people have a hard time finding one spouse, let alone two.

2: I think you misjudge the human animal. Some people might think the solution to their marriage woes would be an extra spouse, but the way that humans generally couple and are generally inclined to couple, it seems unlikely to me that that would be a hasty solution often enough to be considered a real problem in society. Again, most people would have a hard time finding an extra spouse, but even if they could, I doubt many people would see it as a solution for a marriage on the rocks. In that case they'd be more likely to get a divorce and then remarry, I think.

3: Even if (and it's a pretty big if) this sort of thing became the cultural norm, I still have to ask: What's the harm? What if a group of people feel committed to one another? How is it not a commitment if there's more than two? Why is it only possible for there to be a real commitment if there are only two people involved?

If society isn't the one who gets to decide social institutions, then who does? Academic elites? I'm disturbed by the arrogant elitism that exists from the Left when it comes to their view on social engineering. They think every new type of relationship should be rewarded and celebrated in the classroom, regardless of their social impact.

1: Look at the above examples of slavery and a taboo of interracial marriage. These things aren't very similar to polygamy in a logistical sense, but there were brought up to prove the point that just because society deems something to be appropriate or inappropriate doesn't mean it's right or makes any sense. If we kept with the idea that "society says this is good/bad, so it must be so" then there would still be slavery and interracial marriage would still be illegal.

"Society says it's inappropriate" is a bad argument, plain and simple.

Obviously "society" decides what is and what isn't because society is what we live in. Even if the "academic elites" as you call them push for some kind of social change, if they succeed then it is still, in the end, society deciding something because the minds of enough people who make up society have been changed to bring about change.

The point is that if society says something is inappropriate, but there's no logical, practical, or ethical reason that it should be, then that should be changed.

If you're going to argue against polygamy, argue as to why it's harmful to our society and culture, don't just argue that "society says so," because society has said some dumb things in the past.

Of course, I know you HAVE talks about legitimate impact, which leads me to...

2: What is the social impact? All of the legal issues you've mentioned are logistical problems that would have to be overcome by individual families. And if they want to face them because they think it's worth it, then that's their choice.

Everything else you've brought up is incredibly nebulous. "It would erode commitment." How? I know you've said that it would increase temptation in monogamous couples to add other spouses, but you haven't actually offered any evidence to support that claim, just conjecture. And even IF that were the case (I'm not saying it is, because again you've offered no evidence to suggest that) you've yet to demonstrate why that would be a bad thing. So what if people start adding new spouses left and right? I wouldn't personally want to do that, and if I were married and my wife wanted a second husband I'd be uncomfortable with it, but what's the harm if that becomes a common trend? Who does that hurt, other than individuals who's marriages don't work out?

Earlier, you said that marriage protects the fabric of society. You have yet to explain what this means or how polygamy being legalized would hinder this.

Of course that would change if it were legalized. Obviously some people will consider it once it became legal and there will be support groups to further legitimize that type of relationship. Its naive to think otherwise. Changing these type of institutions is a means to advance social engineering. Children who have not been taught tradition will now start looking towards these fringe relationships as acceptable. That's the whole point.

It will become more acceptable, yes. Will it become universally acceptable? I see no reason to assume that. The human species has been largely monogamous for most of it's history. Even in countries where having multiple spouses is legal, many people still have traditional two-spouse marriages. There will be more polygamy, certainly, but I see no evidence that it will become the norm and supplant traditional marriages. Even children who look toward this "fringe relationships" as acceptable... most of them probably won't enter into them, they'll probably just not care that other people do.

And even if they do, I have to ask once again: What's the harm?
 
I wish I read this first...you're right..you're creating a whole litany of legal conflicts that will fill up our civil court rooms. For what? For giggles? This entitlement that you have a right to do whatever I want regardless of consequences and have government sanction and approve it and provide benefits for it. yeah.
Not sure if serious.
 
SentinelMind and I/others in this thread are looking at this from fundamentally different viewpoints, and that's why our posts are so incomprehensible to each other.

It's the whole argument of law being decided by what is morally right for society, and law being decided strictly by pragmatic legalistic judgment.
 
there is no right to polygamy in the Constitution. So polygamy supporters have to make a compelling reason why it should be legal and why state legislatures should adopt it. They have the burden to prove it will provide benefit to society that will outweigh the litany of legal paperwork and contractual nightmares that would arise from its legalization. If the demand for polygamy is as little as the Question says it is, I see no reason to accommodate the desires of those who want dramatically redefine marriage. The point is that once that option became legal, the culture will reflect this new legal status. You're using the government to change the perception and value of marriages in this country. I do think the cultural impact of modifications to our institutions is a legitimate thing to consider. It impacts the well-being and livelihood of next generation of civilization. This idea that government recognize every relationship and provide benefits just because someone out there wants it and wants that to be given equal consideration to century long tradition is pretty absurd.

If there's people who truly want it, they need to go to Utah and try secede.
 
there is no right to polygamy in the Constitution. So polygamy supporters have to make a compelling reason why it should be legal and why state legislatures should adopt it. They have the burden to prove it will provide benefit to society that will outweigh the litany of legal paperwork and contractual nightmares that would arise from its legalization. If the demand for polygamy is as little as the Question says it is, I see no reason to accommodate the desires of those who want dramatically redefine marriage. The point is that once that option became legal, the culture will reflect this new legal status. You're using the government to change the perception and value of marriages in this country. I do think the cultural impact of modifications to our institutions is a legitimate thing to consider. It impacts the well-being and livelihood of next generation of civilization. This idea that government recognize every relationship and provide benefits just because someone out there wants it and wants that to be given equal consideration to century long tradition is pretty absurd.

If there's people who truly want it, they need to go to Utah and try secede.

What harm would it do TO SOCIETY as opposed to simply giving some people more paperwork to deal with.

How would it NEGATIVELY impact our culture? You say that it would change our perceptions of marriage, that it would redefine it. That is true. Why is that inherently a bad thing, though?

If people want something and it wouldn't hurt anyone else, then it shouldn't be illegal. It doesn't matter if the people who want it are in the minority. If there's no reason they shouldn't be able to then the government shouldn't ban it, regardless of how big a group is being effective.

Also: "This idea that government recognize every relationship and provide benefits just because someone out there wants it and wants that to be given equal consideration to century long tradition is pretty absurd."

Why is it absurd? Why does the centuries long tradition deserve more consideration? Because it's old? Why does that make it inherently better than a newer thing?

When something is banned, the burden of proof is on society to come up with a good reason for why it should be banned in the first place.
 
The Question said:
You say that it would change our perceptions of marriage, that it would redefine it. That is true. Why is that inherently a bad thing, though?

You admit that legalizing polygamy dramatically redefining the nature of marriage. Why do you feel existing married couples don't have a right defend the value of their marriages? Who are you to impose redefinition of their state recognized relationship? If current married couples feel polygamy waters down their existing relationships by making it harder for other to perceive the strength of their commitment, who are you to tell them how they should feel or that the damage isn't that bad?
 
Easy, (assuming we're talking about the Bible and not Book of Mormon), its a sin to have more than one spouse...just because certain individuals in the Bible chose to behave that way doesn't mean God approved of it. The Bible is filled with sinners.
Could you post even ONE Bible verse where God directly condemns polygamy? I've read the Bible for many years and have never come across such a thing.

There are Bible verses, however, where a man is commanded to marry his deceased brother's childless widow if they (the brothers) were living in the same house. If he was already married himself, it didn't get him off the hook. Nothing did. If he didn't marry his brother's widow, he was publicly shamed before the community. Deuteronomy 25:5-10
 
There are verses in Bible where God says man and woman will unite and become one. That doesn't directly answer your question, but there there are no verses where God is encouraging polygamy either. The Bible also mentions the problems King Solomon acquired from his polygamous relationships.

Deuteronomy is an Old Testament Mosaic Law for Kingdom of Israel. It was meant to promote order but it is not a spiritual requirement for those who are saved now.
 
You admit that legalizing polygamy dramatically redefining the nature of marriage. Why do you feel existing married couples don't have a right defend the value of their marriages? Who are you to impose redefinition of their state recognized relationship? If current married couples feel polygamy waters down their existing relationships by making it harder for other to perceive the strength of their commitment, who are you to tell them how they should feel or that the damage isn't that bad?

I guess my overall stance is that one person's marriage has nothing to do with anyone else's. Polygamy may redefine marriage in the sense that multiple spouses is legal and acceptable, but it doesn't have a tangible effect on traditional two-person marriages. If a current married couple "feels" that polygamy waters down their existing relationship, if wether or not other people perceive the strength of their commitment matters to them, I really can't say anything to that because I really can't change someone's gut, emotional reaction. All I can do is point out that it's irrational, and that seems very irrational to me. Other people don't perceive the strength of your commitment to your partner? Screw them. The only person it should matter to is your partner.

That being said, I don't see how it would cause people to not see the strength of a commitment. If two people are strongly committed to each other, that's a fact. Wether or not they have the legal option of tracking a second spouse doesn't effect that. If anything, having that option and not taking it shows their commitment to be even stronger, because they don't need anybody else.

I don't think people shouldn't have the right to defend the value of their marriages. I just don't see how polygamy devalues the marriages of people who aren't involved in polygamist marriages in any way. The value of a relationship comes from the people in it, not people on the outside. Wether or not marriage "means something" by some vague, nebulous societal standard should be irrelevant. The only think that should mean anything is wether or not your marriage means anything to you.

In the end, the reason I don't oppose polygamy is because I don't think people should be banned from doing something because other people who aren't directly involved may be uncomfortable with it. You asked me "who are you to tell them how they should feel or that the damage isn't that bad?" I ask you, and anyone else who opposes polygamy for somehow "devaluing" marriage: Who are you to tell someone they can't do something, something that you personally don't have to have anything to do with if you don't want to, because you find it to be personally offensive?

I don't think people should have the right to ban other people from doing something that doesn't directly involve them, does't hurt anybody, and no one is forced to do.
 
I guess my overall stance is that one person's marriage has nothing to do with anyone else's. Polygamy may redefine marriage in the sense that multiple spouses is legal and acceptable, but it doesn't have a tangible effect on traditional two-person marriages. If a current married couple "feels" that polygamy waters down their existing relationship, if wether or not other people perceive the strength of their commitment matters to them, I really can't say anything to that because I really can't change someone's gut, emotional reaction. All I can do is point out that it's irrational, and that seems very irrational to me. Other people don't perceive the strength of your commitment to your partner? Screw them. The only person it should matter to is your partner.

It isn't irrational because once you change the definition of marriage it is reasonable to suggest that people's value or perception of that institution changes. There's nothing irrational about changing your value system of an institution once the institution is changed.

In the end, the reason I don't oppose polygamy is because I don't think people should be banned from doing something because other people who aren't directly involved may be uncomfortable with it. You asked me "who are you to tell them how they should feel or that the damage isn't that bad?" I ask you, and anyone else who opposes polygamy for somehow "devaluing" marriage: Who are you to tell someone they can't do something, something that you personally don't have to have anything to do with if you don't want to, because you find it to be personally offensive?

It weakens the institution of marriage. Marriage is already taking a hit with high, easy access to divorce, welfare system that encourages single motherhood, and the redefinition in states to include gay marriage. Why throw another bomb at the last leg still holding it up. Marriage is a contract that is celebrated in society because we perceive it providing a unique, special benefit to society when raising kids. You can't separate the public acknowledgement of the relationship from the value the public places in that relationship. The reason some group of people want to change the definition is because of those benefits we the public, we the people, are placing in that relationship. It's hypocritical to turn around and suggest the public perception of that institution no longer matters.
 
Society once deemed slavery appropriate and interracial marriages inappropriate. Laws should not be decided solely on the basis of what society thinks.

But as I said, I don't personally approve of polygamy or polyamorous relationships. I'm just playing devils advocate.

I have no dog in the fight, morally. I wouldn't do it but I think what adults decide to do between themselves should be up to them. Obviously with caveats for coercion, abuse, etc.

You're comparing polygamy rights to end of slavery or introduction of interracial marriage?

If so, is it fair for me to compare gay marriage to incest marriage?
Aren't all the arguments all the same?

I believe people are inherently implying "agreement between consenting adults", not abused, coerced children.

On a base level he's right. If Polygamy should be illegal because people don't like it then Alabama should be able to ban interracial marriage. Child abuse is another topic.

Slavery is a bad example because it involves someones rights and freedoms being violated, which is what the constitution "should" protect.

If society isn't the one who gets to decide social institutions, then who does? Academic elites? I'm disturbed by the arrogant elitism that exists from the Left when it comes to their view on social engineering. They think every new type of relationship should be rewarded and celebrated in the classroom, regardless of their social impact.

My opinion is that our rights and freedoms should be protected by the constitution, with a clear separation of church and state. This includes people trying to "legislate morality", which is what nearly ALL the marriage arguments boil down to.

It doesn't matter what society thinks when it comes to our basic human rights. This includes the right for competent adults to enter into a mutually agreeable contract of their choosing. The governments only role should be making sure there is no harm, coercion, and enforcing the contract laws. Doing what you say then segregation would have probably lasted another 10-15 years, if not more.

It seems like your advocating legislating morality.
 
It isn't irrational because once you change the definition of marriage it is reasonable to suggest that people's value or perception of that institution changes. There's nothing irrational about changing your value system of an institution once the institution is changed.

That's true. What is irrational, though, is worrying about other people doing that. When an institution changes, society's perception of it, as a whole, will change. But an individual's doesn't. Two people in a monogamous marriage don't have to change how they view their marriage if the law changes to allow other kinds of marriage.

It weakens the institution of marriage. Marriage is already taking a hit with high, easy access to divorce, welfare system that encourages single motherhood, and the redefinition in states to include gay marriage. Why throw another bomb at the last leg still holding it up. Marriage is a contract that is celebrated in society because we perceive it providing a unique, special benefit to society when raising kids. You can't separate the public acknowledgement of the relationship from the value the public places in that relationship. The reason some group of people want to change the definition is because of those benefits we the public, we the people, are placing in that relationship. It's hypocritical to turn around and suggest the public perception of that institution no longer matters.

It's not hypocritical, it's arguing that the perception is overly and unnecessarily narrow.

I have several questions:

1: Why is it a bad thing for there to be easy access to divorce? What if two people made a mistake when they got married, or one or both of them changes, or the relationship just turns out to be unhealthy? Why should they be forced to stay in that relationship? How is it better for a child to be raised by divorced parents than by parents in a loveless or distractive marriage?

2: What's wrong with single parenthood? Why should a parent be forced to stay in a bad relationship or remarry when their first one ends even if they can't immediately find the right person? How is it more harmful for a child to be raised by a single mother than to be raised by parents in a loveless and/or abusive marriage?

3: What's wrong with gay marriage? How is a gay couple less capable of raising a child than a straight couple?

4: How would the members of a polygamist union be less able to raise children than ones in a monogamous union? In some ways it's probably easier, more people to share the burden and all.
 

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