The Punisher

[Tg11]

If they were to ever reboot The Punisher again they should make it similar to the 2004 film starring Tom Jane and John Travolta but with more of a darker edge to it in a sense but who could play Frank Castle? That's the thing, me personally I would go with either Jon Hamm as Frank Castle or Karl Urban

 

[MadVillainy]

Nah dont make it like the 04 film. 04 was like a throwback to old action movies.

I say make it a serious crime drama, similar to The Town in tone. It'll never happen but thats the best way to do it

 

[Tg11]

Nah dont make it like the 04 film. 04 was like a throwback to old action movies.

I say make it a serious crime drama, similar to The Town in tone. It'll never happen but thats the best way to do it

Yes you are probably right but then in a sense you could have Frank Castle, the cop undercover on a certain detail or whatever and then just have him in a real shoot em up which then would involve the people who end up killing his wife and children he could kill whoever and then in retaliation they end up killing his whole entire family shooting him essentially leaving him for dead

Then cue Frank Castle who survives of course and he just ends up on a one man mission, like in a sense it would be similar to Charles Bronson's Death Wish movies in a sense but darker

 

[Daltonio]

I couldn't find another Punisher thread, so I hope this is cool to post here.

Thomas Jane is doing an AMA on Reddit in an hour or so if any of you guys have questions for him.

 

[norse_sage]

Yes you are probably right but then in a sense you could have Frank Castle, the cop undercover on a certain detail or whatever and then just have him in a real shoot em up which then would involve the people who end up killing his wife and children he could kill whoever and then in retaliation they end up killing his whole entire family shooting him essentially leaving him for dead

Then cue Frank Castle who survives of course and he just ends up on a one man mission, like in a sense it would be similar to Charles Bronson's Death Wish movies in a sense but darker

I mean no offense, but that is a terrible idea. Changing the origin was the single biggest mistake of the 2004 movie, and it is a mistake that should never be repeated again. I’ll explain why:

The proper comic book origin gives Frank Castle a reason and a philosophical justification for becoming the Punisher. The one you suggest, and the similar ones seen in the 2004 and 1989 movies, does not.

Consider: While on a day out in the park, the Castle family by pure accident stumbled over a mob execution. It doesn't matter if they simply were caught in the crossfire or if they were killed after a panicked and desperate split second decision to kill off any innocent bystanders who happened to be witnesses. The point is that the shooters would have reacted the exact same way if it had been any other random jogger, couple, family or whoever else that happened to stumble into their affairs, it was just sheer bad luck and nothing else that it happened to be the Castles. Had they not stumbled onto that specific location within a very critical time frame probably only lasting somewhere from seconds to minutes, they would have been perfectly fine. The outcome would likely have been the same if another family stumbled onto the scene within the same critical time interval, or if other shooters and mobster families altogether were involved.

The crux of the matter is that crime destroys innocent lives randomly and indiscriminately.

Furthermore, there is no justice, as was shown by the courts failure to convict anyone, despite Castle’s eager testimonial. It was but a random situation made possible by crime in general and organized crime in particular, and this is what gives The Punisher some level of philosophical justification to go after ALL criminals.

In the 2004 movie however, this casual ambiguity and coincidence, which is rather profound when you think about it, had nothing to do with it. The Saints weren't having a shootout with another group of mobsters, they were deliberately and actively seeking out Frank Castle and Frank Castle only, as he was the one who lead and botched the sting that got their son killed. From their point of view, which has some merit, Castle drew first blood and they are getting even. Killing the entire extended family was but the whim of a grief-stricken mother. As such, what happened to Castle could never have happened to anyone else, as it was but personal vendetta, not random. Vendetta of course breeds vendetta, so the 2004 movie origin gave Frank Castle all the reason in the world to go after the Saints specifically, but it also stripped him off any justification to take out anyone else! This is also clear in the movie, as the decision to go after all criminals comes completely out of the blue, with nothing building up to it or alluding to it in advance. Think about it, one moment he is contemplating suicide, then he has good memories of the wife saying goodbye, which by rights signals that he should have started life over with Joan - instead he is suddenly determined to call himself the Punisher and kill criminals and rapists??? Why? This does not compute. This is inept writing at its worst. That was a standard a revenge movie with a Punisher ending tacked onto itbecause it was supposed to be a Punisher movie, despite that ending not at all jiving the narrative of the movie.

When Marvel brings the Punisher into the fray, they need to do it right – and that involves staying true to the source material, and the source material origin – the one where Frank Castle becoming the Punisher follows naturally.

 

[Lilbaz]

Think I would love a Netflix/HBO series far more than a movie. Agree that they should keep to the source material. He is a soldier and is at war with criminals. He lost everything so reverts to type and deals with it the only way he knows how.

A series will give a lot more time to explore his story. We don't need massive effects. Get the writers and director of the Equalizer and I would be a happy man.

 

[mightiest_mortal]

I know I'm probably in the minority but I actually really liked the Jane movie.
It felt like an old school western and gave you sympathy towards the character. Shame they didn't make any more.

 

[Endeavor]

I have a feeling we'll be seeing the new Punisher in just over a month.

 

[Sundancer]

I want to see Dirty Harry and Max Payne on the Punisher task force. Just a one shot.

 

[Team Andino]

I'm hoping we get a Punisher series on Netflix if they decide to do a phase two of the shows. Based on the trailer alone for Daredevil I fully think they can do the same with Punisher.

 

[NI-Gunner]

I could picture Jeffrey Dean Morgan kicking some serious ass.

 

[connor_in]

I have a feeling we'll be seeing the new Punisher in just over a month.

What makes you think that?

 

[norse_sage]

I imagine he must be referring to Daredevil, soon out of Netflix?
If not, I'm also curios about what makes you think that, Endeavor.

 

[Dasher10]

I hope that Punisher doesn't debut for a while and he's introduced as a villain in one of the Netflix series as a crazed vigilante who goes so far over the edge that he has to be stopped. In fact, I'd give him his own episode to tell his origin just to get it out of the way.

That or I'd wait until Phase 4, then give him his own TV show.

 

[FVD]

I'd love to see Frank Castle make a cameo in CA: Civil War like in the actual story. Seeing Cap kicking his ass after Castle executing certain villains was gold. And I wouldn't object to Thomas Jane coming back. He's still at a good age really.

 

[Mandon Knight]

I thought Thomas Jane did an awesome job in an above average film.

 

[Endeavor]

I imagine he must be referring to Daredevil, soon out of Netflix?
If not, I'm also curios about what makes you think that, Endeavor.

you got it.
I think they've filmed a cameo of him in the DD show.
I think the back and forth between the show runner and Ventimiglia was about that.

 

[norse_sage]

you got it.
I think they've filmed a cameo of him in the DD show.
I think the back and forth between the show runner and Ventimiglia was about that.

That is actually my highest wish for the Daredevil show: That it will cover the death of Frank Castle's family. We don't have to see the incident itself, Murdock being appoint to defend one of the shooters would suffice. Show Frank Castle trying to let the courts handle the matter, lets see it fail.

Lets see the beginning of the Punisher from Daredevil's point of view.

I don't think it will happen, but damn, it would have been sweet.

 

[Endeavor]

That is actually my highest wish for the Daredevil show: That it will cover the death of Frank Castle's family. We don't have to see the incident itself, Murdock being appoint to defend one of the shooters would suffice. Show Frank Castle trying to let the courts handle the matter, lets see it fail.

Lets see the beginning of the Punisher from Daredevil's point of view.

I don't think it will happen, but damn, it would have been sweet.

very cool idea.
It would still be a DD story, and we'd get a fresh POV for another hero's origin, which we're all familiar with by now.

 

[Dasher10]

very cool idea.
It would still be a DD story, and we'd get a fresh POV for another hero's origin, which we're all familiar with by now.

Punisher is a lot of things but he isn't a hero. Anti-Hero is still pushing it. The guy crosses way more lines than some anti-heroes like Elektra, Deadpool and Venom. Punisher is designed to be unsympathetic and is only a protagonist because all his victims are career criminals.

 

[random_havoc]

Punisher is a lot of things but he isn't a hero. Anti-Hero is still pushing it. The guy crosses way more lines than some anti-heroes like Elektra, Deadpool and Venom. Punisher is designed to be unsympathetic and is only a protagonist because all his victims are career criminals.

How can you say he crosses more lines than them? All 3 of them kill. That's as far a line as there is. Elektra has a massive body count and is a straight up assassin most of the time, so if anything she's easily worse than he is since he's at least killing criminals.

 

[Endeavor]

Punisher is a lot of things but he isn't a hero. Anti-Hero is still pushing it. The guy crosses way more lines than some anti-heroes like Elektra, Deadpool and Venom. Punisher is designed to be unsympathetic and is only a protagonist because all his victims are career criminals.

Way to nitpick on a word and miss the whole point of the discussion

 

[Sundancer]

That is actually my highest wish for the Daredevil show: That it will cover the death of Frank Castle's family. We don't have to see the incident itself, Murdock being appoint to defend one of the shooters would suffice. Show Frank Castle trying to let the courts handle the matter, lets see it fail.

Lets see the beginning of the Punisher from Daredevil's point of view.

That does sound like a good way to test out a new audience and a "comeback"

 

[The Guard]

As such, what happened to Castle could never have happened to anyone else, as it was but personal vendetta, not random.

Right, because the mob never has a personal vendetta against anyone other than Frank Castle. The destructive actions of the mob never touches any other lives.

Vendetta of course breeds vendetta, so the 2004 movie origin gave Frank Castle all the reason in the world to go after the Saints specifically, but it also stripped him off any justification to take out anyone else!

I feel like Castle said, quite clearly: "those who do evil to others" at the end of the movie.

He made a direct statement about the kind of people he would be going after. People who would harm others.

Taking on the mob was his crucible. There's no law that suggests he cannot go after other criminals after this, or that he needs some complex reason to do so.

This is also clear in the movie, as the decision to go after all criminals comes completely out of the blue, with nothing building up to it or alluding to it in advance.

Really?

Because having had "evil done" to him, and almost to his new "friends", and seeing various criminals and sadists growing rich off the suffering of others and through corruption isn't enough?

Think about it, one moment he is contemplating suicide, then he has good memories of the wife saying goodbye, which by rights signals that he should have started life over with Joan - instead he is suddenly determined to call himself the Punisher and kill criminals and rapists??? Why? This does not compute. This is inept writing at its worst. That was a standard a revenge movie with a Punisher ending tacked onto itbecause it was supposed to be a Punisher movie, despite that ending not at all jiving the narrative of the movie.

You're overcomplicating things in your analysis, and missing the point of the sequence. The point of that sequence is that this is the sole reason he decides to go on living. He decides to stay alive to kill criminals and those who would harm others. It's not particularly eloquent...but it never has been. This is the simplest, most direct element of Castle, and always has been.

And complaining about his reason for killing criminals not being the same as his origin story is really kind of splitting hairs, because there isn't just one reason he does what he does. In the comics, Frank Castle has been shown to have a number of reasons for why he kills criminals. They range from the trauma he experienced, to the fact that he likes to make them suffer, to wanting to protect innocents, to outright hating criminals.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Seriously. Elektra has killed plenty of people just for money. Deadpool does it for money when he isn't in it for the yuks. Venom is a deranged, murderous half-alien. And Castle is supposed to be worse than those guys? Come on now.