The Dark Knight The Realism Debate thread

[Visceral]

"Realistic" concerning comic book movies is an out of key word.

There is nothing realistic about a man who dresses himself in a black cape, full armour and a mask with sharp bat's ears and thus wanders the streets to, ah-ham, fight the crime.

Come on.

you know a lot of people, were absolutely stunned back in the 70's when Chris Reeve lifted off the ground and began to fly. It looked so real, so believable that people left the film overjoyed, and the film resonated then became a classic.

You will believe a man can fly......and you know the rest.

the point is something that was seen as far too fantastic, was taken seriously and made so realistic, that the audience couldnt reject it within the context of the movie.

Both Tim Burton and Joel Shumacher, were both stylistic directors, Tim with a dark style and joel with the opposite. Tim's suited batman very well. joel's not so much. And I dont think anyone really hates seeing a film where style dominates the substance (such as david lynch and frank miller). It just seems to me with what you just posted, that you dont want us to believe in our superhero.

In the end, you're kind of right they are all just movies The Bourne Ultimatum, Casino Royale, and the Departed, are all thought of as great because they are awesome, and we believe that they could happen.

You say its so unrealistic? maybe. when I saw batman begins I was somewhat convinced that a billionaire with a good upbringing could wage war against the mob instead of turning to the crime that surrounded him.

Batman is vigilante and those exist. the league of shadows was a secret society somwhere between monestary and ninja dojo with a distinct philosophy on how justice should be dealt out. all those exist as well.

Joker is a psycho who thinks he is a clown who wants to watch the world burn. Psychos exist.

hopefully I made my point.

later

 

[Mr. Socko]

I like the shot where Batman is standing on the high rise in Begins but the cape was ridiculously long.

 

[Closerframe]

Why is this even being discussed its not like Nolan is making a complete realistic Batman movie.( Which could never happen without destroying the movie.) I feel Nolan is taking a more realistic approach when it comes to comic book movies. He wants to basically show how a hero gets his costume how a hero makes mistakes. Basically Nolan is creating a realistic superhero. Which I respect. I don't care what he needs to do as long as he keeps the heroes characteristics intact and some wardrobe.

 

[Manosman]

Why is this even being discussed its not like Nolan is making a complete realistic Batman movie.( Which could never happen without destroying the movie.) I feel Nolan is taking a more realistic approach when it comes to comic book movies. He wants to basically show how a hero gets his costume how a hero makes mistakes. Basically Nolan is creating a realistic superhero. Which I respect. I don't care what he needs to do as long as he keeps the heroes characteristics intact and some wardrobe.

Well put!

 

[TheAbomination]

Nolan has never stated that this film was realistic. Bale did.

 

[dark_b]

Nolan has never stated that this film was realistic. Bale did.

nolan mentioned the word realistic. but he didnt meant that he will do a realistic batman.

 

[Gianakin_]

I think the term realistic has been misunderstood and abused around here.
Whenever I think "realistic", my mind drifts to an explanation you can buy but doesn't necessarily stand in the real world, or series of events that happen logically and don't defy this logic. In essence, I'd say he tries to lower the suspension of disbelief.
To illustrate my point, remember in Spidey2 when Peter gets his powers back and steals the costume from JJJ? That moment you see a paper printed that says "He's back". That doesn't happen and you just suspend your disbelief as it is a cute comic book nod. Nolan would never do that (and I liked that bit from SM2). It's the best way I can express how I perceive his "realism".

 

[TheAbomination]

nolan mentioned the word realistic. but he didnt meant that he will do a realistic batman.

Yeah. You're right.

 

[Agentsands77]

I have to claim to not entirely understand how you are differentiating "visual aesthetic" and "tonality". I understand tonality to be about the relationship between each element and every other. The general tone of something. My possible misunderstanding is that I define "visual aesthetic" in pretty much the same way.

I don't think that's the same. Visual aesthetic ties into the tone, but it's something on it's own.

I say again that the tone of Joker's look is unlike anything previously established in Begins.

Granted.

Scarecrow in the comics is drawn every bit as different from normal people as the Joker. Neither look even remotely normal. If a comic character, who's look was just as unique as the joker, was distilled down to his mask in Begins then why would we expect the comic joker to not be equally distilled?

Firstly, because such a distillation didn't entirely undermine the character of Scarecrow. It would entirely undermine the Joker. Not to mention there was no real time for Scarecrow to assemble an actual costume in BEGINS (though it seems he won't have enhanced his look in THE DARK KNIGHT).

Both having equally unique appearances in the comic, getting drastically different translations to film.

Yes. But the Joker is meant to be extraordinary even among the rogue's gallery. Now in the comics, that's only been an abstract concept, since all the rogues are so colorful. But now Nolan can make a visual distinction as well, which even further ties into the theme of "escalation" - theatricality gone wild.

And lest we forget, Nolan has made quite a few adjustments to the Joker's look.

My fear is that with this aesthetic of the essentials so well established in Begins the Joker's off the page look will take me out of a performance that by all indications already exhibits the entirely unique nature of his character.

The visual look has to be informed by the character. What would this character really wear, if he was looking at a closet? Well, Scarecrow's not necessarily going to pick out a really extravagant costume, especially given the background he was in BEGINS.

But Joker? He's probably going to pick up a bunch of vintage clothing, in order to accentuate his clown-like look.

-Narrow pants left short. The short pant legsbeing an old vaudeville tool used to make the clown look more comic. Cosmo Kramer used the same technique. :P

Nice detail. I didn't know that. Makes me love it even more. Seems the Joker's knowledgable about clown history.

-the socks. while objectively hilarious, they are artistically problematic
-the elongated "poor man's" shoes
-purple gloves
-the green vest
-the ridiculously patterned shirt
-THAT purple coat. Some purple I think was necessary. Everything purple, no. That is out of place. That coat, in that purple, combined with the other items, looks like it could have come from Cesar Romero's reject pile.
-I'm waiting for the pic that shows an orangeish tie. (sarcasm)

What changes it for me from cartoony to realistic is the quality. These look like real clothes that you could find in a thrift shop or elsewhere. The B89 Joker clothes looked like reject piles from a high school musical or something of the sort.

 

[sasquatchs]

I don't understand what 360sculptguy is even arguing. That Joker shouldn't wear bright colors because everyone else has subdued costumes? I may have expected something a little less garish than the usual Joker from Nolan, but how does his costume stray from the world exactly?

Joker's the perfect candidate for something apart from everything else. While the other villains are content to hide their schemes, Joker is trying to make a vivid public statement in front of Gotham

 

[Manosman]

From what it looks like, the Joker's clothes aren't too out of control, I mean people wear flashier and more outrageous clothes in the real world, so i dont see the big deal about a purple suit, I mean my grandfather had a lime green leisure suit in the 70's, dark purple now isn't bad at all, and I would wear those socks myself today.

 

[dark_b]

From what it looks like, the Joker's clothes aren't too out of control, I mean people wear flashier and more outrageous clothes in the real world, so i dont see the big deal about a purple suit, I mean my grandfather had a lime green leisure suit in the 70's, dark purple now isn't bad at all, and I would wear those socks myself today.

olans gotham is pure fantasy. like singers gotham. in singers gotham you will not see a guy wearing bright green and orange clothes. it doesnt fit with the tone and the city that he made.
the same with nolans gotham.

 

[sasquatchs]

Joker isn't supposed to fit in, in these scenes at least. We know he wears very bland clothes as part of a disguise

 

[Manosman]

olans gotham is pure fantasy. like singers gotham. in singers gotham you will not see a guy wearing bright green and orange clothes. it doesnt fit with the tone and the city that he made.
the same with nolans gotham.

Singer didnt have gotham, he had metropolis, but in a fantasy world with character who have things for theatrics I can see someone wearing some theatrical clothes, if that makes sense.

 

[dark_b]

Joker isn't supposed to fit in, in these scenes at least. We know he wears very bland clothes as part of a disguise

its all about the mood and about the tone.
in those new fantasy movies you can not have a character that stands out.
he has to fit in.
thats why supermans colors were desaturated in SR.

 

[terry78]

Joker is supposed to look like a creepy, dishevled clown/mime. He can't look too "realistic."

 

[dark_b]

Joker is supposed to look like a creepy, dishevled clown/mime. He can't look too "realistic."

and having a darker purple or maybe brown is a realistic joker?

curse you nolan for ever mention the word ''realistic'' in your interview. t:

 

[Monster]

Joker is supposed to look like a creepy, dishevled clown/mime. He can't look too "realistic."

The Joker looks very creepy at the moment to me for TDK? Don't you think?

 

[sasquatchs]

its all about the mood and about the tone.
in those new fantasy movies you can not have a character that stands out.
he has to fit in.
thats why supermans colors were desaturated in SR.

Cannot have a character that stands out? That's exactly what Batman and Joker are trying to do. They're extradordinary characters in an ordinary world.

 

[dark_b]

Cannot have a character that stands out? That's exactly what Batman and Joker are trying to do. They're extradordinary characters in an ordinary world.

batman stands out because he has a cape and big ears but in NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO way does he stand out because he is bright.
and i was the whole time talking about colors.

 

[sasquatchs]

Never said that he stood out because of color, in what way they stand out doesn't matter, they're not supposed to be consistent with the rest of the world

 

[Mercurius]

you know a lot of people, were absolutely stunned back in the 70's when Chris Reeve lifted off the ground and began to fly. It looked so real, so believable that people left the film overjoyed, and the film resonated then became a classic.

You will believe a man can fly......and you know the rest.

the point is something that was seen as far too fantastic, was taken seriously and made so realistic, that the audience couldnt reject it within the context of the movie.

Both Tim Burton and Joel Shumacher, were both stylistic directors, Tim with a dark style and joel with the opposite. Tim's suited batman very well. joel's not so much. And I dont think anyone really hates seeing a film where style dominates the substance (such as david lynch and frank miller). It just seems to me with what you just posted, that you dont want us to believe in our superhero.

In the end, you're kind of right they are all just movies The Bourne Ultimatum, Casino Royale, and the Departed, are all thought of as great because they are awesome, and we believe that they could happen.

You say its so unrealistic? maybe. when I saw batman begins I was somewhat convinced that a billionaire with a good upbringing could wage war against the mob instead of turning to the crime that surrounded him.

Batman is vigilante and those exist. the league of shadows was a secret society somwhere between monestary and ninja dojo with a distinct philosophy on how justice should be dealt out. all those exist as well.

Joker is a psycho who thinks he is a clown who wants to watch the world burn. Psychos exist.

hopefully I made my point.

later

I understand what you're saying. But taking something seriously (and I agree Nolan does that) doesn't make it "realistic".

But you couldn't be more wrong about David Lynch: his movies are not about style, but substance.

He has more substance in two seconds of footage than all our supermovies together. His deep questions of what is reality, what is identity are among the greatest recent contributions to art.

Anyway: I just feel the debate about "realistic" features in this particular genre are a bit out of proportion. Sometimes it seems the characters must be toned down to become acceptable; or to be easier to explain.

The Joker, for instance: in the comic books, he is not a freak with a giant scar, nor has he such a long and dirty hair. He is a pretty sharp dresser.

The meaning: he is a kind of dandy clown, who has a freakish murderer inside. Remember the shooting scene in The Killing Joke. It creates a short circuit seeing a clown in Summer clothes to be so perverted.

This movie version breaks it, perhaps too much: he is scary-looking, not a clown at all. And not for "realism", mind you. But to make obvious what is, in the original version, a suggestion.

 

[sasquatchs]

This movie version breaks it, perhaps too much: he is scary-looking, not a clown at all. And not for "realism", mind you. But to make obvious what is, in the original version, a suggestion.

Can't say I agree with that, the painted eyes and sloppy, wide, red grin are classic clown features. If anything he looks way more clownish than most Joker drawings. Its scary because clowns are scary t:

 

[deathfromabove]

From what it looks like, the Joker's clothes aren't too out of control, I mean people wear flashier and more outrageous clothes in the real world, so i dont see the big deal about a purple suit, I mean my grandfather had a lime green leisure suit in the 70's, dark purple now isn't bad at all, and I would wear those socks myself today.

i have dressed exactly like the TDK joker before (minus the makeup of course). i don't think his look is out of context for nolan's world at all.

 

[Manosman]

i have dressed exactly like the TDK joker before (minus the makeup of course). i don't think his look is out of context for nolan's world at all.

sweet!