The Dark Knight The lack of realism

[Dark Globe]

Just because something hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't happen.

 

[strikerbatman2]

I'm not going to read 7 pages to catch up, all I'm going to say is that Obviously things like a 20 story drop onto a car and living aren't the most realistic. But as far as the overall Batgadget discussion, I don't know what could or could not exist, I think the point Nolan was trying to get across was that maybe they could. He essentially turned fantasy into something a little more believable.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

In TDK Nolan made more room for the spectacular, thus abandoning the illusion of realism a bit (which is my take on it)

You honestly don't make a whole lot of sense considering that Batman Begins has just as many (if not more) far-fetched elements as does The Dark Knight.
The speeding train sequence, Wayne Manor burning to the ground (stone cannot burn), Scarecrow and his fear toxin, Wayne's seven year journey around the world, etc.

Joker is a sadistic, sociopath with no remorse. People like this can and do exist in the real world. Sure his methods might be slightly different from various serial killers, but these types tend to be unique from the other in one form or another, anyhow. Again, look at the Zodiac Killer. Like the Joker, his methods lacked rhyme or reason.

Here is an excerpt from one of the Zodiac Killer's letters. This is clearly someone who just wants to "watch the world burn."

Also, TDK was maybe the first comics to film adapation in recent memory that did not involve some crazy, over the top ending. Instead, we see two men trying desperately to save the life of a young boy from an emotionally and physically wounded man seeking vengeance.

 

[Caladbolg]

You honestly don't make a whole lot of sense considering that Batman Begins has just as many (if not more) far-fetched elements as does The Dark Knight.
The speeding train sequence, Wayne Manor burning to the ground (stone cannot burn), Scarecrow and his fear toxin, Wayne's seven year journey around the world, etc.

Yes indeed. As Ive also shown in my long posts back there, most of the surreal elements of the saga was established heavily in Batman Begins, thus being the reason most critics feel its less realistic than TDK.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

Yes indeed. As Ive also shown in my long posts back there, most of the surreal elements of the saga was established heavily in Batman Begins, thus being the reason most critics feel its less realistic than TDK.

Our Norwegian friend has me a bit confused. Again, this takes me back to a couple weeks or so when another forum member expressed fear that The Dark Knight would not be "as dark as Batman Begins", oddly enough. He subsequently feigned disbelief as basically all, but one person barely made sense of his logic.

 

[Caladbolg]

And in defense of Batman Begins' surreal concepts, I love the train sequence and the portrayal of the League of Shadows in that film, Their pull and beliefs makes them much different from regular characters in these movies imo. Theyre like ancients. Probably why that ending sequence blew me away as much. TDK not as much, but it was still a great film.

 

[Caladbolg]

Edit: this server is LAME lol

 

[Beanjuice]

Batman in action - totally unrealistic. Like watching Spider-Man. What he does is so far out there, it really surprised me.

.

so batman can do a triple spin dive through a wall and land on a train,then shoot webbing into the eyes of a guy with mechanical arms welded to his spine and then stand in front of the train and use all of the strength in his body to stop it by holding on to elastic webs? Hmm i think someone should call sony for copyright infringement

 

[Caladbolg]

So, you are saying that a group of terrorist Ninjas using a divice that evaporates water (and does not affect humans, who are almost pure liquid) to spread a gaseous FEAR toxin in a train, also with a guy dressed up as a bat that goes hanging off from a rope that magically doesn't up in the rails of this stupid vehicle is more real than this epic police thriller?

I wonder if anyones noticed that in Batman Begins, the monorail was designed specifically so that sequence would look plausible. In order for that hang to work, the tracks would have to not be protruding, thus 1 thin rail was used. Otherwise it couldve been a subway system or such.

 

[danb26]

There's a lot of quick responses here, I understand with what you're saying, but I feel in some aspects this whole realism arguement is draped in contradiction. Not necessarily purposefully, it's a difficult one.

Regarding people relating to Bruce Wayne: I can see why people say that, I think they relate to his mind set rather than actually the man himself. I believe many people would want to see themselves as a protector of their family (Gotham) in any normal life.

The man himself, Bruce Wayne, is beyond rational realistic description. When Rachel comments about his mask being his real face and the Batman is his true persona now, this is how far the man has been pushed, it's not impossible for a man to a spilt personality and in TDK he's gone beyond himself. The only thing that keeps him a Wayne is his choices of compassion, this is what keeps it realisitic as a person.

I did wince with one or two things, the bike turning up the wall, the Rachel/Batman falling scene BUT as has also been said in this thread...I completely loved the movie. With all my heart and head, it was the most amazing thrill. I felt like I'd been sat in there for a day watching something I never wanted to end.

I don't think the Joker is an unrealistic character either, the most beautiful thing about him is there's no limits or rationality, hence always making up different stories and so forth. I don't think you can question a pyschopath's realism levels, he's already beyond realism and rationality by being insane.

I think you've also failed to consider BB and it's realism levels if you'e questioning TDK. The conversation on the plane before he becomes the Bat? Surely Alfred would just think he's mental and ignore him no matter how loyal? He'd dismiss it, would he?

Ha, questioning myself.

The one thing I do finish with, is your contention as well I believe, I've never been so entertained after such a build up and not let down.

The Dark Knight is one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen, on par with my missus of course

 

[DACrowe]

Wow this thread...is a waste. People are discussing the realistic nature of a movie about a guy dressing up a bat vs. a psychotic clown who nearly brings a city to pieces over a philosophical argument?

It is a movie. What Nolan does is ground it enough realism or so much realism that the more fantastical things (you know -- Batman, Joker and Two-Face and the things they do) can be accepted. The mafia, Harvey Dent pre-Two-Face a city entrenched in corruption and mob warfare is real. Some of the equipment Bruce uses is real, but used the way he does to the results he does is not. But if everything to that point is told with a straight face and the whole story is told well, the audience goes along for a the ride.

This thread is a fail.

 

[danb26]

Wow this thread...is a waste. People are discussing the realistic nature of a movie about a guy dressing up a bat vs. a psychotic clown who nearly brings a city to pieces over a philosophical argument?

It is a movie. What Nolan does is ground it enough realism or so much realism that the more fantastical things (you know -- Batman, Joker and Two-Face and the things they do) can be accepted. The mafia, Harvey Dent pre-Two-Face a city entrenched in corruption and mob warfare is real. Some of the equipment Bruce uses is real, but used the way he does to the results he does is not. But if everything to that point is told with a straight face and the whole story is told well, the audience goes along for a the ride.

This thread is a fail.

- Although I understand what you're saying, you've missed the complete point of the initial discussion and therefore what's happened afterwards.

I was gonna write what you wrote, but some people wanted to delve further into it, you've got to look beyond the obvious and then people just wanted a deeper conversation.

I guess

 

[Sloth7d]

Of course there are things that you need to suspend your disbelief about in this franchise (like how Batman just raided China and left like it was nothing), but almost all of the things the TC pointed out aren't hard to believe at all.

 

[CuppaJoe07]

More realistic then Batman & Robin you mean?

Where is the challenge in that? Nolan could have flying pigs in a frozen hell and still claim more realism then before. t:

Nolans a director that hypnotizes his audience with his movies. But some refuse to snap out of it when leaving the theater. He really is a genious and I feel like a bad person for pointing it out.

But more on-topic, I'm talking about the description of realism that viewers claim it has, not Nolans vision for the whole thing.

What are you trying to say, that everyone believes it's real? That we all have to "snap out of it"? I think you're taking everyone's notion of "Realism" too seriously. Of course not everything is possible in the films. It's just the overall dramatic tone they are given.

To me, this argument is irrelevant. There are some realistic circumstances, and some are not. That's that. Nobody is calling it a documentary.

 

[mrbrownie]

Maybe. But theres a ton of people out there writing that this is so awesome bacause one can relate to Bruce Wayne. "The movie is grounded in realism because Batman is a real man one can relate to" That's just handing over ammo to the haters, they will tear that apart.

Each to his own, if they wanna try to rape this movie, it'll shoot back at them. I don't think it's reason to not state whatever you really think. And I can relate to Bruce Wayne, mainly because of his tragedy, he experienced one of the worst thing that could happened to you, and rose above it, using it as a reason to bring himself to the tip of human potential and vow to never let that happened to somebody else rather than using as a reason to justify anger and hatred or exact empty vengeance on other people. I see it as a symbol of what you can do, of survival at all costs and shooting for the stars.

 

[mrbrownie]

Yes, but look at Bruce Wayne. He is a person not living his life. He is living Batmans life. He sacrifices everything to fight evil. And it's not like he lost someone in an accident or by natural means. They where gunned down right in front of him. The horrific impact that has one ones psychic I can not fathom and I hope that is wisdom I never acquire. And he choose to fight this evil, well knowing that it makes the chances for him loosing more people he cares about due to evil doings gets even bigger.

Relate to him? Only few people can. And they are probably not movie-reviewers ...

It's the ultimate sacrifice, but I agree that it's hard to fully relate to him, but you can be empathic to his reasons, you can put yourself in his boots, and think, "well if this happens to me, and I had this life, yes, maybe I would respond the same as Bruce.", maybe not, people have different experiences, backgrounds and mentalities, that's why we are all different, there's no action that you can't find a fitting justification to.

 

[mrbrownie]

This I totally agree on. Which may help selling the illusion.



I want what I got. But so many seem to live in the illusion, they seem to love the movie on aspects that I not consider fact.

As I stated in the first post, I don't want some over-realistic superheromovie. I see film because I want to visit another realism then my own. And that I got. But it baffles me when people seem to think that this could happen in our world. When reading such things I am wondering what the guy smoked. Pure and simple.

That's your take on that, and I respect it, it's true you may find reasons to believe that the events on TDK are totally impossible, and your conclusions may sound convincing, but somebody else too come up with feasible explanations on how it can happened, though there may not be feasible to everyone.

Right know I can relate you to the Joker, in the sense that, he believes he's seen the real truth, and everyone else won't see it, although he knows there's people which with some convincing can make them see the truth like Batman or Harvey Dent, and you know in a way that his vision is wrong, but you can't stop asking or even justifying his take on life. Not that you're crazy, or that you don't have valid and strong points (I agree with some of them others I find intriguing, others I just don't agree with), just that in this moment, in this thread most of the people see you as they see The Joker, they won't ask themselves "What if...". That's were they fail.

I know what you mean by Nolan's illusion of reality. But I like to think of it as a take the real world with a GIANT "if" as the seed. It's our world but with a "...If Gotham were real, and this family the Waynes were living in it, and they had a son, which witnessed their murder, and he decides to become a living weapon against crime and injustice...". So if this conditions are met in the real world, then Batman and all that derives from him could exist.

 

[mrbrownie]

Gotta add, this is one of the most refreshing threads ever, OP came with a controversial topic, posters came and debunked it, OP debunked the debunkers, it's better than the permawhite vs. make up, more entertaining and intriguing. Gratz Dotten! Love this thread. t:

 

[danb26]

Gotta add, this is one of the most refreshing threads ever, OP came with a controversial topic, posters came and debunked it, OP debunked the debunkers, it's better than the permawhite vs. make up, more entertaining and intriguing. Gratz Dotten! Love this thread. t:

Sir, as you can see from my responses just up from yours, on first look I was ready to just react...but I gave it a moment, read a few posts and replied and was much happier with looking into it further and having a better discussion than just someone, say, pounding it down to the ground before they've had an intelligent reply.

Your replies are spot on as well, nice to see that some have given it a moment to consider all the points properly and respond!

 

[Caladbolg]

Gotta add, this is one of the most refreshing threads ever, OP came with a controversial topic, posters came and debunked it, OP debunked the debunkers, it's better than the permawhite vs. make up, more entertaining and intriguing. Gratz Dotten! Love this thread. t:

Dotten hasnt debunked anything. Analyzing his responses, he simply attacks the "silly" fans who believe the movie to be "REAL" when in reality most of us (if not all) already know this. He talks down to people as if theyre somehow delluded, when if he reads the replies given to him, hed realize we agree with him more than he thinks. In particular, my initial long posts to him pinpoint exactly where the base of the illusion is, and it isnt where he think it is, its in the first movie. I specifically explained this ILLUSION/FICTION and admitted it was such, and he replies as if im delluded that its real. Ridiculous.

The point of contention is that many choose not to be as closed minded as him. Its immensely arrogant and closed minded to say something will NEVER happen. Thats the point many are making.

He, for all purposes, has changed nothing. Ive heard it all before. Just someone wanting to score "normal" points for pointing out the obvious and then swearing on a stack of bibles that hes roamed the cosmos and is 100% sure of whats possible across eternity.

 

[Jack O Lantern]

so batman can do a triple spin dive through a wall and land on a train,then shoot webbing into the eyes of a guy with mechanical arms welded to his spine and then stand in front of the train and use all of the strength in his body to stop it by holding on to elastic webs?

If he had prep time he could.

 

[Caladbolg]

And I reiterate, going around parading something "could never happen ever in a billion years" isnt how you make a grounded movie. If youre a writer or director of a movie such as Nolans batman films, you have to be in the mindset for "realism" without talking yourself out of it. Its nice that Dotten dwells on the fact that its all bullcrap and pats himself on the back for it, but its a mindset thats necessary for creativity and wont change any time soon.

If Dotten was on the set of a film such as this giving these speeches hed be thrown out, because it would interfere with the performance of the actors, the directing style, and the overall believability of the gritty work theyre making.

Hence, since this is the slang term used to reference what the crew is doing, everyone has a right to nickname the style "REALISTIC" and use it in normal conversation. Whoever takes it literal, its their own problem.

 

[Dotten]

Whoa, loads of answers here let's see what I have time for:

Caladblog: For you and your so desperatly trying to play Frasier I can only give you an advice that no, you are in no way capable of analyzing someone based on a thread. And frankly, it's very little constructive of you and far from topic. You are out of focus, your desperately looking at me and not my opinion. "I need to get that guy, grrr". I can only assure you that I do not live in a tunnel, I have a very wide horizon when it comes to what I like from movies (mainly, I like it all.). But for all I know I'm living alone in this universe and you may just be a fiction of my imagination. Or maybe I'm just a fiction of your imagination. You really should take a look in the mirror and realize that it's beyond your skill (or anyone elses) to try to profile me from reading this thread. You are not Xavier, that I know. Aside from that I have no idea about you, this I know. And I know you don't know **** about me, except my name. But I doubt you know that about yourself. Ironic it is. If you are so interested in profiling me, you should start your own thread with "I will here profile Dotten, because I am so uber and knows everything about all internet users". To conclude: Focus on the ball and not the player. There you will find wisdom. Stop trying to discredit my person, it's so childish.

Over to answering:

Someone pointed out that Batman Begins was no more realistic. I have never claimed otherwise. But I claim that Nolan did a better job with the illusion of realism on that one, especially in the first and second act. Third act was a bit more out there, on the same level all of The Dark Knight was.

Now there are many who agree that TDK is not realistic, it just has many realistic elements in it. That i agree on. But that's not what I target here. I target the grasping after every little bit of straw to defend that what happened in TDK could happen in our reality. Someone are so desperately seeking this to be the truth, because it seems like if that is not the case then TDK is not as good as a movie. Relax, won't ya. Most of TDK is fiction, it's far fetched. But some people grasp at anything they can. It's like a religion, frankly. And it tends to lean towards the fanatical type. My view on this movie is that it is not even trying to sell the illusion of realism (although it tries to be trustworthy). And that does not make it worse.

Feel free to disagree, I don't have all the answers and I don't pretend to. As stated, I don't deal in absolutes. But some people should really try to get their heads out of their ass and respect difference of opinion. I'm not asking for people to agree, but even a fanboy (not saying you who read this is one) should have the skills to listen to different opinions without going to personal attacks or type some half-witted spam.

One wondered why I disliked Superman Returns. I did not dislike it. If I remember correctly I gave it 7 out of 10. Mainly because of the poor script. They could name the film "Liftman". And Superman was in some parts out of character (hiding behind bushes spying etc.). It was a little disappointing. I'm a Superman fan mainly because of inspirational means, and that Superman (1978) back in the 80's got me into the genre to discover the wonders of DC and Marvel. And it made me believe a man can fly and I lived in that illusion for some time. Just like some people live in the illusion that what happened in TDK could happen outside their windows ... But that is off-topic (very hard for some people to stay on-topic).

I'll try to answer the constructive answers that may arrive (but please, try to keep it civil and focus on my opinion and not my person). I do have a life and two kids that need my time more then the hype needs it. Unfortunately they are two young to see TDK (I let the oldest one see BB, which he loved even more then Superman. That little ... :green: ). It may be a day or two, but I'll do my best.

 

[Caladbolg]

How nice of you to return.

Im gonna need time. The server is garbage as you know.

 

[Caladbolg]

Caladblog: For you and your so desperatly trying to play Frasier I can only give you an advice that no, you are in no way capable of analyzing someone based on a thread. And frankly, it's very little constructive of you and far from topic. You are out of focus, your desperately looking at me and not my opinion. "I need to get that guy, grrr"... If you are so interested in profiling me, you should start your own thread with "I will here profile Dotten, because I am so uber and knows everything about all internet users". To conclude: Focus on the ball and not the player. There you will find wisdom. Stop trying to discredit my person, it's so childish.

Firstly, rest assured that it is in no way personal, you brought up a subject and it is as far as im concerned impossible to not point out the social elements of people that hold a particular angle of thought such as yours. That would be a disservice to the full picture, and thats not how I wish to go about a debate. You would win easily if we were only able to mention the things YOU want us to

My observation is in general about people so sure of their own reality. In GENERAL, I consider it stubborn, just as you consider us childish for not making such bold claims about whats possible 10,000 years from now, long after were all dead, even. Its all opinions. Chill.

If were going to talk about the NEED to go after someone or something, it is far more interesting how you need to come here and tell us these obvious things that we already know. Hmmmm. Theres only so many times one can see post after post of "its not real, youre all in an illusion!!! WAKE UP!!" and not wonder about these things.

I target the grasping after every little bit of straw to defend that what happened in TDK could happen in our reality. Someone are so desperately seeking this to be the truth, because it seems like if that is not the case then TDK is not as good as a movie. Relax, won't ya.

And were back here again. Your issue is in our open mindedness about things in general, not really about the specific movie. Its not Chris Nolan who has infused this "WARPED" (from your view) way of thinking, but rather our general philosophy about life, (at least I speak for myself). You wont get us to stop thinking of possibilities, because its simply infused in our personalities. We feel given the small odds of certain things aligning in life, some of these elements could happen, but I also believe UFOs could exist, I also believe a god could also. This can get bigger than this movie, so I suggest you abandon the campaign to lambast how our minds work. It WILL de-evolve.

One wondered why I disliked Superman Returns.

That was me.

I'm a Superman fan mainly because of inspirational means, and that Superman (1978) back in the 80's got me into the genre to discover the wonders of DC and Marvel. And it made me believe a man can fly and I lived in that illusion for some time.

imo Superman Returns made me believe much more that a man could fly, mainly because of the tone. its nice that you lived an illusion though. Tell me what thats like some time.

Just like some people live in the illusion that what happened in TDK could happen outside their windows ... But that is off-topic (very hard for some people to stay on-topic).

There you go again. If we want to talk about others living in an illusion, I suggest you take your own advice: keep focus on the movie and not characterize other people to play Dr Phil. I dont see your qualifications either to boldly claim we are in an illusion.

I'll try to answer the constructive answers that may arrive (but please, try to keep it civil and focus on my opinion and not my person).

Nice