The Dark Knight The lack of realism

[Mrs.J]

I personally think Nolan could pull off ANY villain. Including Killer Croc or Mr Freeze...

I concur

t:

 

[Caladbolg]

Now that I've finally caught up with the proceedings, I can say this is a very good conversation. When it comes to the line between what some perceive as possible and others not, there will inevitably be disagreements.

Bruce Wayne morals and ethics - unrealistic. No man alive can relate to that, thats what makes him a superhero. Cause he takes "overhuman" choices.

Most people are cowards and the more one gets to know one self, the more one will dislike what one sees. I humbly worship every person who truly (and not in an allusion) can relate to Bruce Wayne. Because those people, if out there, are superheroes.

The "overhuman choices" originated from a cult mind you. This cults pull far superceded any outlaw organization granted, and thats where the fiction is. So we could say that Batman Begins started this whole trend of mixing "remote possibilities" with reality. Its the backbone.

Firstly, the cult, which took Bruce in, believes in exacting a biblical type of justice. The groundworks of this type of ideal is VERY real, and can be found in many religions of today. The belief: That at a certain point it is necessary to wipe an area of the Earth away in order for future generations to thrive. Sodom and Gomorrah for example, Noah and the flood, and yes, even the apocalyptic doctrines many believe for our time. The League however takes these teachings and eliminates the "let god handle it" approach. In this case, if one who believes in these ideals feels theres no godly arbitrator, they take it upon themselves.

In his trauma, Bruce was able to be molded into a mindset that was entirely at odds with the society around him. The cult teaches when you have nothing left after a criminal element has devastated you, the will to act is ALL that matters. "Training is nothing, will is everything." So now Bruce adopts this mindset. Its the most important thing in existence to him, he simply put his own final adjustment to the ideals and believes in selectively exacting justice instead of a blanket act.

To further drive the concept home, I know for sure if Ras ever heard of the term "superhero" hed consider it vast foolishness, just as the term vigilante would put them in the same line as some "Punisher" comic in one of Gordons' kids rooms.

Batman in action - totally unrealistic. Like watching Spider-Man. What he does is so far out there, it really surprised me.

Once again the "supposedlys" of the League is at play here. They trained him after he already was a fantastic fighter, to use a secret fighting style that knows the weaknesses of all other styles, AND utilizes a series of distractions, "patience and agility" to keep the stealth nature of their cult and their actions. So now Batman utilizes these teachings and with it, you have the wiggle room to do things a bit more heightened than real life.

Nolan has projected a remote possibility, not concrete reality. The concept plays on the idea that we dont KNOW everything about life and whats out there. Recently we just spotted a tribe in Brazil's jungles that we never knew existed, for example.

Q, err, I mean Fox - The character is so fictional and what he comes up with is in the James Bond universe.

Granted the devices Wayne Enterprises has created is heightened. This was established since Batman Begins. The cape and gliding issues have been raised, the strength of the body armor he uses etc. This was never in question. It gives Batman the edge he needs to further sell the concept of one man taking on corruption with much acquired help. Ive noticed the heavy use of the near inpenetrable body armor personally.

Even in real life, there are small things occuring that we never knew was possible. Cloning, and technological gadgetry that wed see as completely laughable and call it a childrens fairy tale 20 years ago. There is also an element in mankinds thought process that ignores this, and assumes in our "modern" age that we know most, if not everything and that things cant get any more advanced than our imaginations can fathom.

Two-Face - No one can live like that. So over the top if one wants realism (or the illusion of it)

Ive noticed Harveys scars had no treatment, and he probably would die soon somehow without it, but then I noticed the movie takes place within a few days, so thats really a non issue imo. Down the line hed have those infection problems, but we dont have to see it happen, so Im kind of glad he died at the end.

 

[Caladbolg]

Continued...

Joker - Wicked evil, most unrealistic of all.

All about the Joker, what he did, what drives him, how he managed to do what he did was not grounded in any kind of realism whatsoever.

...people like the Joker, crazy as he is and capable of doing what he does, does not excist.

it baffles me when people seem to think that this could happen in our world.

The profile of Joker is tied into yet ANOTHER act of projected reality brought to you by the League of Shadows. In order to explain I have to tell a little story.

Imagine a real city thats corrupt in real life. Criminality and white collar corruption rampant. Now lets say a cult attacked the economic infrastructure, creating a massive economic depression. The lower class starving, the upper class getting robbed and killed constantly. A purposeful act of sabotage of the economy leaves a city that is far beyond the problems of any US city now. Chaos prevails, crime control is a slippery notion, people are jumping out of windows at record rates EASILY surpassing The Great Depression. And what happens if the city infrastructure doesnt expire when this cult plans it to (I suspect a decade or two they calculated)? You get Gotham City. A city that never should have been. The deranged are mutating into something nobody has seen before, a different class of criminal. New psychological profiles would be needed. What happens when the NORM is vicious criminality and it gets boring to the nutbags? Once they see everyone wants money, someones going to stand out of the crowd and try to make a name for themself. Many try, few succeed. Its a sociological "what if" scenario.

The Joker is a product of the Leagues tampering (and also the sabotage of their plan by Thomas Wayne). He has the intelligence and social skills to take control of the mob, and also the traits of an anarchist. And if you ask me, many similar nutbags have lived in real life, just not EXACTLY like this one.

This is also why its annoying when people bash the revelations at the end of Batman Begins as sub par, because its the entire reason this stuff makes as much sense as it does, its vital.

I'm a bit startled that so many of the "realism"-lovers like this movie. And many of them seem to live in denial and claim that this is so realistic. Come on!

I can see where this point of view comes from, because in life we are trained to only believe whats in front of our eyes constantly. Science is arrogant, and the collective panels that decide these perceived boundaries of reality are ULTIMATELY human beings with a narrow view on this little blue marble called Earth like anyone else. Many people are comfortable in trusting the norms of day to day without question. For other personalities, we understand the projections made in a work such as these movies, and recognize it as a sociological warning even for real life society. In fact, this is my favorite kind of movie, because its the hardest to pull off, and the most contentious. I consider one who pulls it off to be a master.

Nolans entire style is illusion it would seem, as he has fantastically done in "The Prestige". He took a cloning machine and made one think about the implications, moral and societal, of its existence in a REAL world context.

As for the characterizations in Nolans Batman films, these mindsets are not EXACTLY that of what we would encounter in life SO FAR. The thing about life though is, that we never know what to expect, and the scientists who are so sure of themselves often end up flabbergasted when their reasoning doesnt ALWAYS play out how they think it will. The only time one stops learning new things is when deceased. This applies to scientists as well. So I can definitely buy the heightened aspects of the films, because of how delicately they were done. It definitely *depends on the person*. This post summed up my views also:

You basically only find something realistic or hyper-real, if it already happened in real life. That is where we differ. You don't entertain the possibility of something that could happen - at least on some level.

A lot of people don't think certain events can happen.. UNTIL THEY ACTUALLY DO. You're no different.

Excellent point ArmsHeldOut. Thats exactly what Im saying.

...Quit fooling yourselves...Fact is, Mythbusters could make a whole season dedicated to The Dark Knigh.

In light of all of this, I find the next statement ironic...

The mind is like a parachute. It functions best when it is open.

Hmmmm.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

I concur

t:

Even Manbat?

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

This discussion mirrors that of an older thread started by Conebone, where he oddly suggested that The Dark Knight is not... umm dark enough in comparison to Batman Begins, much to everyone's confusion.

 

[Mrs.J]

Even Manbat?

Why the hell not!!! Sure!! t:

 

[Caladbolg]

About relating to Batman/Bruce, I think most people relate not to his situation, but they root for him because hes in a situation that can realistically bring about a hero to a failing society drowning in money greed etc. His ideals as well as his fathers is what we relate to I feel: economic fairness, stopping those who harm others. As Bruce he appoints Fox to stand as a shining example of how to build the community up while doing business, and as batman hes the icon of anti criminality.

 

[CaptainClown]

A batman movie.. not realistic?! what has this world come to.

 

[Dotten]

*snip*

I like your spin on it, but in some cases you really get me wrong. Especially buying into what I think can or cannot happen. I'm no man of science, nor of faith. But I have a great amount of fantasy and there is a reason I've been a comic-book fan for over 20 years. Dreaming of how the characters could excist in my world. Heck, I've even fantasized about me being characters like Batman, Spider-Man and so on. In my life.

But realism, I don't want that in most movies, especially not in this genre. I get realism by watching my kids play and looking outside my window. That is not what I want to see on the big screen. I want to visit a reality that is not mine, witnessing another. Which I do in The Dark Knight. The movie lacks realism, but it is trustworthy (which is a totally different thing). One believes that the things that happen can happen in that universe. But not this. I keep those two distinct.

On a symbolical stage, yes it could happen. But that applies for movies like The Fountain too. But your very much grasping at anything that can remotely explain that this could happen outside your window. Both the physics and psychic aspect. It is not so, you are still caught in the illusion.

But the movie defies physics on a grand scale (not in nitpicking scale). Bruce Wayne defies psychology. You use the League to explain how he could be grounded in realism, but we both know The League is fiction. Their teaching style is fiction. Your sole defense for the Bruce Wayne character is based on the fiction of another movie, the illusion of that realism. The same goes for The Joker, where you again use the League to explain some parts of him. When opening your mind, reboot it to apply to this world. And use that to defend what you think is grounded in our realism when it comes to The Dark Knight.

 

[Va3H]

Perhaps, insanity might be the word you're looking for?

 

[Dotten]

A batman movie.. not realistic?! what has this world come to.

Madness I tell you t:

But now I have fallen. And when you fall, what do you do?

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

Madness I tell you t:

But now I have fallen. And when you fall, what do you do?

Fall again.

 

[Dotten]

Blasphemy. Don't make the Wayne-teachings useless.

Oh how one is grasping for any possibilities that The Dark Knight could happen outside ones window. Maybe cinema is too expensive for some (just kidding, remember to breathe.)

It's an illusion. But I actually doubt that it will be a good thing to snap out of it. Kinda like believing in Santa. I hated it when I grew up to find out Christopher Reeve could not fly. Or could he?

 

[Caladbolg]

But your very much grasping at anything that can remotely explain that this could happen outside your window. Both the physics and psychic aspect. It is not so, you are still caught in the illusion.

But the movie defies physics on a grand scale (not in nitpicking scale). Bruce Wayne defies psychology. You use the League to explain how he could be grounded in realism, but we both know The League is fiction. Their teaching style is fiction. Your sole defense for the Bruce Wayne character is based on the fiction of another movie, the illusion of that realism. The same goes for The Joker, where you again use the League to explain some parts of him. When opening your mind, reboot it to apply to this world. And use that to defend what you think is grounded in our realism when it comes to The Dark Knight.

Now I understand. Ive seen the slant of a scientific type of person who have these views, and ive also seen a new group: a fanbase that resents the approach Nolan has taken the movies because they love the fantastical feel of the comics, and makes it a point to suddenly become an expert in "concrete as of the second" reality. It was either one of 2 groups really.

If this mindset was rid of and we adopted yours, directors and such would have a different mindset and the work would turn out more farce than it couldve been. You CANT think this way if youre working on a Nolan Batman film. But perhaps youre not invested in this style in the first place so really dont care. I actually do.

The term "realistic" is essentially "believability", and people will continue to use it as a quick reference to what the goal of the work is.

 

[Bosch Fawstin]

Your complaints lack realism.

 

[Dotten]

Caladbolg: Your on thin ice if you seriously think you can profile someone based on an internet forum

It's fun, but you are way out there. I like Nolans take on Batman Begins, where he goes for the illusion of realism and I like Burtons take where he clearly, in style, states that this is an alternative universe. I can even enjoy the goofiness that is Adam West. They all represent something different, a different take on the same character. It's called having an horizon. In TDK Nolan made more room for the spectacular, thus abandoning the illusion of realism a bit (which is my take on it).

If you stop trying to judge people and spend more time on what is said you might get that. It's what called "focus on the ball, not the player". You are going to fail if you think you can run around being judgmental and trying to judge me or other users on a forum. And anyhow, it's not constructive discussion.

What I am or not is of little importance. What I'm saying (and the constructive answers to that) is what that is of importance. No matter who I am, it changes not the message I'm trying to send out.

If it's a good message, others can be the judge of that. Is it absolute? No way, it is not. I don't deal with absolutes (but still, that is besides the point).

 

[Caladbolg]

Caladbolg: Your on thin ice if you seriously think you can profile someone based on an internet forum

It's fun, but you are way out there. I like Nolans take on Batman Begins, where he goes for the illusion of realism and I like Burtons take where he clearly, in style, states that this is an alternative universe. I can even enjoy the goofiness that is Adam West. They all represent something different, a different take on the same character. It's called having an horizon. In TDK Nolan made more room for the spectacular, thus abandoning the illusion of realism a bit (which is my take on it).

Then you fall into the other category.

Ive seen the slant of a scientific type of person who have these views, and ive also seen a new group: a fanbase that resents the approach Nolan has taken the movies because they love the fantastical feel of the comics, and makes it a point to suddenly become an expert in "concrete as of the second" reality. It was either one of 2 groups really.

Its simple really. Even if youre not a science buff, I consider it the category. The average person that looks at these movies enjoys them, but keeps them compartmentalized as nonsense ultimately. They lean toward science with this topic, because its the common thing to do. But yet many then go to church on Sunday where surreal things are spoken non stop and believe it 100%. Its how people are.

Believers of astrology, superstition, psychics, ufos... Not saying you believe in the stuff but from past experiences, its always interesting when those types point out the unbelievability of movies such as these. If someone tells me they can tell my personality from the month born, I dont want to hear it

The overwhelming majority of people are inherently hypocritical when it comes to these things, thus I have no problem with nicknaming Nolans style as "realism".

...apply to this world. And use that to defend what you think is grounded in our realism when it comes to The Dark Knight.

Done.

 

[The Apocalypse]

I give up. I gave this movie a 10 out of 10, but even that the fanboys come swirling to. This movie is not realistic. Did people see what Batman did in this movie? Jesus christ, come back to the real world.

And when it comes to Two-Face, no one can live like that. Refusing surgery and skin-transplant. Go see a doctor.

This film was unrealistic and that was awesome. But keep living in la-la land. I had hoped for a constructive discussion, but it's probably a tad early. People are not ready for it yet. So I'm probably alone in my take and why this movie was fantastic. I care not, I'm not a sheep.

*running away like Batman in the end of TDK, chased by the rabid dogs*

Peace out

I'm actually seen a person, who had acid thrown in their face and their face was more messed up then Harvey's. The article is online somewhere. Don't believe me, look it up. There is even a vid on youtube bout it.

 

[Superhobo]

I'm actually seen a person, who had acid thrown in their face and their face was more messed up then Harvey's. The article is online somewhere. Don't believe me, look it up. There is even a vid on youtube bout it.

Probably not what you're talking about, but it's much the same thing - obviously, she's had quite a bit of surgery, but -



- what's funny is, as good as the filmic origin worked in context, the comic origin is actually more realistic - right down to hiding the acid in a Jiffy bottle; such things are actually common occurences.

 

[Caladbolg]

Slightly related to the realism topic, Im also curious as to why Dotten disliked Superman Returns now. I found it to be an exceptional film.

Hmmm.

 

[Superhobo]

Im also curious as to why Dotten disliked Superman Returns now. I found it to be an exceptional film.

Hmmm.

It's funny - most film critics had nothing but good things to say about it; I've really only seen backlash on here, and it's mainly been things like, "Superman doesn't punch anybody!" and "Superman looks like a pansy!"

 

[Caladbolg]

- what's funny is, as good as the filmic origin worked in context, the comic origin is actually more realistic - right down to hiding the acid in a Jiffy bottle; such things are actually common occurences.

True, but what i gathered was that Nolan wanted an attempt to kill him for sure, so the guy had a gun that jammed.

 

[Superhobo]

True, but what i gathered was that Nolan wanted an attempt to kill him for sure, so the guy had a gun that jammed.

I thought that was actually, like Kevin Smith said, more of a reference to his comic origins - a sort of, "hey, we know we screwed with him a bit, but here's -"

- as far as killing him for sure, I always thought the aim in the comics was to not just kill him with the acid, but leave a lasting impression, as Maroni was resigned to his fate in jail.

 

[Caladbolg]

Your complaints lack realism.

LOL didnt see this before.

 

[swantonbomberx]

Schlosser85: I'm trying to have a discussion. God forbid, I have a different take on this movie.

Batman Begins was much more the illusion of realism. This was not and that's what I loved. I went "What the hell, pure awesomeness!" when Batman did the most amazing things, totally unrealistic and far from grounded in any realism (on the planet I live on anyhow).

What I want to sound like is not the topic. I may be the biggest A-hole out there. You sir, shoud focus on the message, not the messenger.

So, you are saying that a group of terrorist Ninjas using a divice that evaporates water (and does not affect humans, who are almost pure liquid) to spread a gaseous FEAR toxin in a train, also with a guy dressed up as a bat that goes hanging off from a rope that magically doesn't up in the rails of this stupid vehicle is more real than this epic police thriller?