The Dark Knight The Realism Debate thread

[thegameq]

That right there is the definition of "People take Nolan's words and purpose the wrong way".




If it was too stylized? Yes. I saw a frame-by-frame adaptation of Year one (2 scenes of it involving Gordon". Highly stylized. Iconic. Also, crap.
Dead End: Comic accurate. Iconic to the boot. Also, MEGA-crap.
I think there are several ways to approach Batman, and they all work. Burton's worked, so did Nolan's, IMO. And so will another guy's, as long as it's of great quality. That's what matters to me: the quality of the style, not the style itself.

Depends on what one would call "too stylized". Many might argue that 300 and sin city were too stylized. I believe you could make an argument for The Fountain being overly stylized; while I haven't seen it personally, the reviews I've read seem to point to that. The style or stylization should fit the tale being told. If it's not your cup of tea that's something else altogether.

Batman...any comicbook or character is an amalgam of story, character and style. Style is inherent in the medium itself and inseparable. Moreso, it is the story, character and style as a greater combination that make the material so enjoyable in the first place. Guess what happens when you remove the very things that make the source material so enjoyable?

How much fun would Superman or Spider-man be without their fantasy or stylization? I know, I know: "but Batman doesn't have super powers, so he needs to be realistic". Why? Who said? Where is this law that because Batman doesn't have super powers, his film representation has to be realistic?

What makes it worse is that Batman is a heavily stylized character. So why in the world would one choose to take away the very stylizations that help make the character what he is?

 

[Gianakin_]

Depends on what one would call "too stylized". Many might argue that 300 and sin city were too stylized. I believe you could make an argument for The Fountain being overly stylized; while I haven't seen it personally, the reviews I've read seem to point to that. The style or stylization should fit the tale being told. If it's not your cup of tea that's something else altogether.

Haven't seen the Fountain, so I can't comment. The Miller-type stylization is fine for me. But I don't think it'd work for Batman. Hell, I saw those 2 Year One scens as I mentioned before and I have a pretty good idea of what it'd look like. and I don't like it.

Batman...any comicbook or character is an amalgam of story, character and style. Style is inherent in the medium itself and inseparable. Moreso, it is the story, character and style as a greater combination that make the material so enjoyable in the first place. Guess what happens when you remove the very things that make the source material so enjoyable?

Agreed.

How much fun would Superman or Spider-man be without their fantasy or stylization? I know, I know: "but Batman doesn't have super powers, so he needs to be realistic". Why? Who said? Where is this law that because Batman doesn't have super powers, his film representation has to be realistic?

Wait, wait, wait. Don't assume I'm one of those "realism rules" guys. This was never gonna be an argument for me.
Having said that, I found Nolan's Batman stylized enough. Just because it didn't have weird angles and intimidating gargoyles doesn't mean there is no stylization.

What makes it worse is that Batman is a heavily stylized character. So why in the world would one choose to take away the very stylizations that help make the character what he is?

Again, I don't think they were taken away, they're just different... and in a good way, for me. Aparrently not for you, hence the disagreement. But I stand by my view that there is stylization in the Nolanverse.

 

[thegameq]

Wait, wait, wait. Don't assume I'm one of those "realism rules" guys. This was never gonna be an argument for me.

Not at all, just explaining a point, and true we don't need to overdue the goth angle and it isn't a requisite. It just fits the character so well.

I guess it's just sticking in my and others "craw" that Nolan opted to do away with so many of the things that make Batman enjoyable in the first place. While there have been variations, all the variations share a commonality that makes their work clearly the Batman we all love regardless of the artist......in some ways Nolan's Batman is still Batman, but why so far off to the left with his vision is beyond me--regardless of the few bones here and there thrown to the fans.

The hope no doubt (much like with x-men) is that Nolan's film(s) are going to eventually evolve into the Batman fans have cherished....but I doubt it, the Batsuit, Joker and Batpod alone leads me to believe that Nolan will continue to push his vision farther from the comics, using the box office clout he gained from the first film as the means and justification to do it.

 

[Gianakin_]

I understand where you're coming from. I respectfully disagree, but I understand. I will give you the Batpod, but I'll say that the same kind of costume was used in Burton's films, which were pretty stylized. As for the Joker, haven't seen him, can't tell you. I certainly can't give you Joker as a taking-away of stylization, now, can I?

 

[terry78]

edit

 

[Super_Ludacris]

Not at all, just explaining a point, and true we don't need to overdue the goth angle and it isn't a requisite. It just fits the character so well.

I guess it's just sticking in my and others "craw" that Nolan opted to do away with so many of the things that make Batman enjoyable in the first place. While there have been variations, all the variations share a commonality that makes their work clearly the Batman we all love regardless of the artist......in some ways Nolan's Batman is still Batman, but why so far off to the left with his vision is beyond me--regardless of the few bones here and there thrown to the fans.

The hope no doubt (much like with x-men) is that Nolan's film(s) are going to eventually evolve into the Batman fans have cherished....but I doubt it, the Batsuit, Joker and Batpod alone leads me to believe that Nolan will continue to push his vision farther from the comics, using the box office clout he gained from the first film as the means and justification to do it.

But its like I said earlier in this thread. It looks like the whole point of this series is showing how a real world turns into a contemporary gotham bat-world. So of course when first introduced those things are gonna look more reality based. Is that gonna take anything away? No

 

[Gianakin_]

But its like I said earlier in this thread. It looks like the whole point of this series is showing how a real world turns into a contemporary gotham bat-world. So of course when first introduced those things are gonna like more reality based.

To play the devil's advocate here, we don't know that yet. We ccertainly WANT it to happen, but we don't know. It could very well be than Nolan isn't doing that. Maybe the freaks won't take over Gotham in every way.

 

[Super_Ludacris]

To play the devil's advocate here, we don't know that yet. We ccertainly WANT it to happen, but we don't know. It could very well be than Nolan isn't doing that. Maybe the freaks won't take over Gotham in every way.

If this movie sucks, it wont be because the Joker didnt look right or the pod or the suit. I dont get why people shyt there pants over trivial stuff like that. Its about the script subplots and the pacing of the movie that matters. Everything else wont matter. I wish people would get over the costumes and looks. Its over-stated complacency.

 

[Mr. Socko]

Nolan's approach is more realistic than the other films, as Ebert said, it acts as if it's real even though it isn't. Right now I'm really enjoying this take as well. This is about Batman if he were real, and it's only natural he's in a city that looks just like a real rotting city in America. So far I think this direction is going fine and look forward to it for two more films from Nolan.

I love the more fantasy type Batman too, if not more, but I don't have a problem with it being set aside for one series. After Nolan's films, in a few years we may very well get the "urban legend" noir type Batman, which would be just as good. I'm just sitting back and enjoying the ride.

 

[Crook]

I wish people would get over the costumes and looks. Its over-stated complacency.

That stuff wouldn't matter in a novel, but this is a movie we're talking about. Of course the appearances matter. Not to say it is of the upmost importance, but it's up there. Film is all about how you set up the aesthetics. To suggest otherwise is being ignorant.

 

[Gianakin_]

If this movie sucks, it wont be because the Joker didnt look right or the pod or the suit. I dont get why people shyt there pants over trivial stuff like that. Its about the script subplots and the pacing of the movie that matters. Everything else wont matter. I wish people would get over the costumes and looks. Its over-stated complacency.

But I'm not talking about this stuff. You said that Nolan's going for a "fantasy elements will be added as the trilogy progresses" approach and I said we don't know that.

 

[Super_Ludacris]

That stuff wouldn't matter in a novel, but this is a movie we're talking about. Of course the appearances matter. Not to say it is of the upmost importance, but it's up there. Film is all about how you set up the aesthetics. To suggest otherwise is being ignorant.

Not as much, if anything past comic book movies have taught us its that if the script and directing work well then people accpet all the director's changes they had with the set pieces visually (Spiderman's web and X-Men's outift).

End of the day for example if the Joker's characterstics are captured perfectly by the story and remind fans of say the Killing Joke or the early 40's comics then I dont see how whether or not for most of the film he's in make up matters.

Besides the key to the Batman mythology in all adaptations is that they've altered apperances while the best presentations retain the spirit of the character's world in the story. That's why he's lasted so long in comics and on screen and is really the only DC character mainstream audiences are checking for.

 

[Super_Ludacris]

But I'm not talking about this stuff. You said that Nolan's going for a "fantasy elements will be added as the trilogy progresses" approach and I said we don't know that.

Are we really gonna pretend to act that clueless about that, really were gonna do that right now? .
Come on duke, even if its not exactly like the comic book world, its still gonna be similar to that from what we DO know.

Continuity wise we already know from BB and the little info about TDK from the spoilers (which supposedly takes place 6 months after BB), that over a span of a year basically Gotham goes from what looks like a non-fantasy, regular crime town to one where a man in a batsuit inflicts justice, half the inmates in the asylum escape and retaliate with similar theatrics (word to Gordon's roof top scene) to a man dressed as a clown creating a divide in the city between the gangs and supporters of Batman (the idea of Gotham being a warzone) to the DA getting his face scarred so badly he is traumatised into switching sides.
This is all the escalation into the legend, and all the realism is presented to show the initial evolution.

 

[Crook]

Not as much, if anything past comic book movies have taught us its that if the script and directing work well then people accpet all the director's changes they had with the set pieces visually (Spiderman's web and X-Men's outift).

I'm not denying that, but one could argue some of those changes were pretty pointless in the first place. For example, had Singer gone with a more "realistic" depiction of "costumes" such as these:

I doubt comic fans or the audience would be complaining about it looking corny or something.

End of the day for example if the Joker's characterstics are captured perfectly by the story and remind fans of say the Killing Joke or the early 40's comics then I dont see how whether or not for most of the film he's in make up matters.

Besides the key to the Batman mythology in all adaptations is that they've altered appearances while the best presentations retain the spirit of the character's world in the story.

Then I don't need to remind you why a Joker putting on make-up is of great controversy here.

 

[Gianakin_]

Are we really gonna pretend to act that clueless about that, really were gonna do that right now? .
Come on duke, even if its not exactly like the comic book world, its still gonna be similar to that from what we DO know.

Continuity wise we already know from BB and the little info about TDK from the spoilers (which supposedly takes place 6 months after BB), that over a span of a year basically Gotham goes from what looks like a non-fantasy, regular crime town to one where a man in a batsuit inflicts justice, half the inmates in the asylum escape and retaliate with similar theatrics (word to Gordon's roof top scene) to a man dressed as a clown creating a divide in the city between the gangs and supporters of Batman (the idea of Gotham being a warzone) to the DA getting his face scarred so badly he is traumatised into switching sides.
This is all the escalation into the legend, and all the realism is presented to show the initial evolution.

I honestly don't get that from all we've heard. I don't get the idea of freaks unleashed in a level that allows fantaasy to fully kick in. Note that I'm not saying it won't happen, and I know Iwant it to, but that I can't be sureand fully agree with you yet.

 

[Super_Ludacris]

I'm not denying that, but one could argue some of those changes were pretty pointless in the first place. For example, had Singer gone with a more "realistic" depiction of "costumes" such as these:

I doubt comic fans or the audience would be complaining about it looking corny or something.

Then I don't need to remind you why a Joker putting on make-up is of great controversy here.

Well one can also argue that the reason the whole franchise was successfully resurrected and got it the critical and fan praise was because Nolan's formula of realism worked in Baman Begins. So how pointless can it be when it saved the franchise, reinvented the character for a new movie audience and changed people's (non-comic book fans) previous expecations?

And as far as the Joker goes, if the character still has the traits of being this sinister, troubled, twisted sadistc individual that's more important because far more key to the plot that he and Batman clash not only as good guy and bad guy but we get this rich experience and understand of them being the way they are.

Spoiler

I've heard stuff like hes in making for most of it and by the thrid act he gets the acid treatment. That's even better because we know what he's like before the accident and a gauge of his criminal mind. By the time the accident happens, we get this great perspective of the Joker and a much richer origin story for him depth wise

And as far as X-Men and Spiderman go, you had complaining still about the costume and powers back then before the film came out, because even though that picture was one way of seeing them, people were use to the popular canon apperance. Others argued it would be ok. Just like we are here with the Joker.

 

[Super_Ludacris]

I honestly don't get that from all we've heard. I don't get the idea of freaks unleashed in a level that allows fantaasy to fully kick in. Note that I'm not saying it won't happen, and I know Iwant it to, but that I can't be sureand fully agree with you yet.

From the 3 spoilers we got, you dont think that when a normal city changes into a battle zone of clown gangs and Arkham escapees traumatised from the night in the narrows and are out to get Batman with similar theatric methods thus flipping the town upside down in a span of six months, it shows escalation from realism into full on comic book world?

Spoiler

We already know about characters from BB coming back for revenge like scarecrow, we know they are mock Batmen running around, we know the mob turns to an eccentric gang leader in the joker and that the commisner is gunned down and Gotham City's streets are put under National Defence security as the spoilers and set reports are reporting

So that's a lot to progress on all under somewhat realism world explinations. This is why I think Nolan's handling of the plot and pacing matter way way waaaay much more. Cause it then justifies everything else like the Joker, the Pod etc etc etc.

 

[Gianakin_]

From the 3 spoilers we got, you dont think that when a normal city changes into a battle zone of clown gangs and Arkham escapees traumatised from the night in the narrows and are out to get Batman with similar theatric methods doesnt flip this town upside down in a span of six months, it shows escalation from realism into full on comic book world?

The whole discussion was about fantasy being added and from all that, no, I can't honestly swear that it'd happen.

 

[CaptainClown]

still at it giankakin?

 

[Gianakin_]

Well, not continuously, bet yeah. It's my University exams, see and I don't leave the house much.

 

[Super_Ludacris]

The whole discussion was about fantasy being added and from all that, no, I can't honestly swear that it'd happen.

But I'm explaining to you how it works and how it can be transistioned. What part of this dont you get? This is like really, really really simple comprehension and plot understanding explinations I'm giving here. I mean come on now

 

[Crook]

Well one can also argue that the reason the whole franchise was successfully resurrected and got it the critical and fan praise was because Nolan's formula of realism worked in Baman Begins. So how pointless can it be when it saved the franchise, reinvented the character for a new movie audience and changed people's (non-comic book fans) previous expecations?

When did I mention Nolan? I was referring to the individual ideas of organic webshooters and leather suits. None of those 2 alter the story in any way, hence why I said including them does nothing to the story.

And as far as the Joker goes, if the character still has the traits of being this sinister, troubled, twisted sadistc individual that's more important because far more key to the plot that he and Batman clash not only as good guy and bad guy but we get this rich experience and understand of them being the way they are.

Once again, making Joker putting on make-up doesn't achieve any of this.

Spoiler

I've heard stuff like hes in making for most of it and by the thrid act he gets the acid treatment. That's even better because we know what he's like before the accident and a gauge of his criminal mind. By the time the accident happens, we get this great perspective of the Joker and a much richer origin story for him depth wise

Spoiler

You mean the chemical bath? So he's already putting on make-up and sh1t, and THEN gets into an accident that makes his skin a permanent image of what he was dressing himself up as?

That's beyond ******ed.

And as far as X-Men and Spiderman go, you had complaining still about the costume and powers back then before the film came out, because even though that picture was one way of seeing them, people were use to the popular canon apperance. Others argued it would be ok. Just like we are here with the Joker.

That's not remotely same thing. A comparative example would be the arguing of Joker wearing a black tuxedo instead of his traditional purple outfit. The make-up debate goes much deeper than a superficial cosmetic issue.

 

[Super_Ludacris]

Well, not continuously, bet yeah. It's my University exams, see and I don't leave the house much.

Do some revision then and stop worrying about this movie! lol

 

[Gianakin_]

But I'm explaining to you how it works and how it can be transistioned. What part of this dont you get? This is like really, really really simple comprehension and plot understanding explinations I'm giving here. I mean come on now

And I get it, believe me, I'm just not 100% sure that in Batman 3 we'll get a full-blown fantasy-induced universe. But I can definately see it happening the way you explain it and expect it to be like that, too.

 

[Gianakin_]

Do some revision then and stop worrying about this movie! lol

Heh, I'm done by this hour usually, right now I'm waiting for some firends to pick me up and go out.