The Resurrection of Ra's Al Ghul(discussion thread)

[Jono87]

Personally, my jury is still out on Damien, in the big picture, he creates a heckuva lot of problems that I don't even want to think about, but the one moment of his that I absolutely loved was "Pompous Old Man. My father will break you into pieces when I tell him you're back." There is respect and pride there. Yeah, it was annoying as hell when he kept mouthing off to Bruce during BaS, but after he was verbally spanked and put in his place, I think he was actually quite proud to have Batman as his dad...as he should. It is going to be interesting to see everything he does during the storyline.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Eh, proud or pissy, I just don't like the fact that Damien exists on a fundamental level. I don't like a lot about Batman now, though.

 

[DoomJester]

Personally, my jury is still out on Damien, in the big picture, he creates a heckuva lot of problems that I don't even want to think about, but the one moment of his that I absolutely loved was "Pompous Old Man. My father will break you into pieces when I tell him you're back." There is respect and pride there. Yeah, it was annoying as hell when he kept mouthing off to Bruce during BaS, but after he was verbally spanked and put in his place, I think he was actually quite proud to have Batman as his dad...as he should. It is going to be interesting to see everything he does during the storyline.

What problems does he create for the big picture? All characters drift in an out, Damien doesn't have to be the next sidekick, if that's what you're worrying about.

 

[PhotoJones]

Eh, proud or pissy, I just don't like the fact that Damien exists on a fundamental level. I don't like a lot about Batman now, though.

I've stopped picking up the Dini back issues to get caught up, and instead started at the Rucka issues right after NML. If you're in need of some good, solid Batman stories, I'd say look there. The two part Poison Ivy story in particular is awesome.

 

[yenaled]

God yes Rucka was fantastic on Batman.

I recently read the Wagner Batman minis from last year (based on Golden Age stories) Man Monk and Monster Men. They really reminded me how good Batman can be when written in his element.

What I liked about Morissons recent issues was it was Batman in a murder mystery - no Damien, no Man-Bat Ninjas - and I think it worked out really well. J.H. Williams III helped a lot though.

 

[PhotoJones]

Yeah, J.H. Williams is amazing, especially when doing Batman and his supporting cast. I was really disappointed to hear he wouldn't be continuing with Dini on Detective Comics.

 

[DoomJester]

I thought the Matt Wagner minis were good but not that great... I think I'll go a bit more with Grant Morrison's work. I really didn't think the Batman "Heroes Club" or whatever story was that great. But what I like about Batman is that he is so versatile. Batman can be an action star like in Hush, or he can do detective work like in Broken City, and he can be locked in a room with a potential murderer for three issues.

Why do people have problems with Damien though? Why not give him his fair shake? I don't think Batman and Son is the best way to introduce him but I don't see him as tying Batman down or anything like that.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Long-lost children are a fundamentally terrible plot device. They don't create drama, they create instant melodrama because, 9 times out of 10, they come back and the story plays out exactly the same way: they're pissed at their absentee parent, even if said parent didn't even know about them, they lash out at him/her, something happens to fix the relationship, and then they wind up appreciating each other as parent and child. Every. Single. Time. It's sickeningly repetitive. That's why I'm so hoping Damien just dies and we can forget he ever existed.

On top of that, Batman's had the "rough relationship the builds into a strong father/son love" story with no fewer than 3 surrogate sons. There is nothing new here. Morrison's just changing the kid's name and giving him ties to the League of Assassins as a means of magnifying the same goddamn conflict Batman always has with every young protege ever.

I've stopped picking up the Dini back issues to get caught up, and instead started at the Rucka issues right after NML. If you're in need of some good, solid Batman stories, I'd say look there. The two part Poison Ivy story in particular is awesome.

I've read most of them. Wasn't I the one who recommended basically anything with a "Bat-" and "Rucka" on the cover?

 

[yenaled]

Eww, Corp likes Batwoman.

I love the fact that you've basically just summed up Batman and the recent Sub-Mariner miniseries.

 

[DoomJester]

Long-lost children are a fundamentally terrible plot device. They don't create drama, they create instant melodrama because, 9 times out of 10, they come back and the story plays out exactly the same way: they're pissed at their absentee parent, even if said parent didn't even know about them, they lash out at him/her, something happens to fix the relationship, and then they wind up appreciating each other as parent and child. Every. Single. Time. It's sickeningly repetitive. That's why I'm so hoping Damien just dies and we can forget he ever existed.

On top of that, Batman's had the "rough relationship the builds into a strong father/son love" story with no fewer than 3 surrogate sons. There is nothing new here. Morrison's just changing the kid's name and giving him ties to the League of Assassins as a means of magnifying the same goddamn conflict Batman always has with every young protege ever.

I've read most of them. Wasn't I the one who recommended basically anything with a "Bat-" and "Rucka" on the cover?

Well, in some ways you're right. I can't dispute that what you're saying is usually the reason why these things fail. And you've painted, sorta kinda, the broad strokes of what happened in Batman and Son. But I think as much as you're talking about Grant's issues, you've also painted a kinda straw-man argument onto the Grant Morrison run. (Just like some people with shooters (shootan gaems!)-- why don't you like them-- well all you do is shoot things.) Anything can be made to sound bad if you make it simplistic...

As far as the rough relationship with the father and sons... well, I don't know how to interpret those, since I've got hindsight. "A Lonely Place of Dying" was far more important for Batman than it was for the new Robin. It was about restoring who Batman was and saving him... which is why I appreciate ASRB (a whole different post buddy...). ASRB is about Batman seeing himself in Robin-- which I love. I really think the issue with Damien will be about what Batman's surrogate sons see in Batman, rather than the other way around.

When I said I felt a straw-man in your arguments, I don't want to accuse you, just because you have certain feelings. I did ask after all! I just don't think Grant did what you said. There was some melodrama, but I think Damien is far too chaotic and far too much his mother's child to dip into that "let's be a neat family even if we have problems." This is Batman (most importantly Grant's Batman) not Sailor Moon. Damien is a very wildcard element. Which is refreshing. And I think Grant was trying to ease the fears of people like you when he had Damien go to his mother's side.

I freely admit that Batman and Son wasn't the best way to (re)introduce Damien; but I think he deserves his fair shake. You could be having a knee-jerk reaction to the whole affair.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It'd be great if Morrison proved me wrong. Unfortunately, it rarely happens. There's a clear-cut path through the long-lost child device and 99% of the time, writers take it. Remember, Damien's story isn't over yet.

Oh, and when you mentioned that I pretty much described "Batman and Son"? Keep in mind that I haven't read any of Morrison's Batman issues. That's how trite and overused this plot is.

 

[Ibn]

The thing that pisses me off the most about Damien is that his original character, Ibn, was a thousand times better. He was the perfect hybrid of Batman and Ra's. I've said it before and will say it again. Mark Waid should be the only one handling Batman right now..... and forever in fact. If not that than at least give all the Ra's stories to him. Ibn al Xuffasch is still one of my favorite characters ever, and I only knew him for one book. That's how cool he was. I like a Bruce + Talia kid more than a Bruce + Selina kid because Talia ties Batman now to Ra's. When they brought back Batman's son, I thought I was getting the perfect successor. Instead, I god ****ed.

 

[Miss Webb]

Okay, theory number two (or three, based on the first!)

What if the battle between Robin and Daimen is for the host body for Ras?

Next theory...

What if Ras got a sample cell from Bruce (either directly or through Daimen), grows another host body in the lab that develops into a twin of Bruce! He claims this body and looks like Bruce but has like, a goatee or something.

Now THAT's a story. It would sure freak Bruce out, I know that much.

 

[Aristotle]

Are they implying that Damian isn't Bruce's kid but a lab experiment?

Both. They got some Bruce DNA, and some Talia DNA, and made a baby. So, I guess, technically, that's still Bruce's offspring...but that ain't Bruce's ****in' son.

that was already hinted, hell not even hinted but shown in one of the issues where damien was introduced.(the issue where bats confronts talia,after damien beat the snot out of tim)(reply to corp and ibn).

I wish you'd have told me that back then.

The whole thing seemed Silver Age-y in tone but Morrison-esque in subject matter, if that makes sense. And those two don't mesh very well.

I'd say Morrison-esque in tone, but Silver Age-y in subject matter. Which meshes VERY well: this is what Morrison's been doing since Animal Man.

the Black-Case Book

I REALLY want to see what that story was going to look like. I hope that after the Resurrection and Final Crisis wrap up, he'll put out a mini or something that explains it, or even go back and do more issues of Batman that cover what he was gonna do. This was gonna be too kickass of a run for all that stuff to just be lost.

 

[Aristotle]

What I liked about Morissons recent issues was it was Batman in a murder mystery - no Damien, no Man-Bat Ninjas - and I think it worked out really well.

I remember being apprehensive when Morrison was talking up his run before it came out, and he was talking about the hairy-chested love god from the 1970s, instead of the Batman I care about. He delivered exactly what he promised--I don't know why anyone was surprised. He did it pretty well, for what it was, but when he finally took it back to a murder mystery, you're absolutely right, he really showed how well he can do Batman when he's writing BATMAN--not just some character in tights.

 

[PhotoJones]

I'd say Morrison-esque in tone, but Silver Age-y in subject matter. Which meshes VERY well: this is what Morrison's been doing since Animal Man.

If it meshed well, then it wouldn't suck. Instead, it does.

 

[Kitsune]

Okay, theory number two (or three, based on the first!)

What if the battle between Robin and Daimen is for the host body for Ras?

Next theory...

What if Ras got a sample cell from Bruce (either directly or through Daimen), grows another host body in the lab that develops into a twin of Bruce! He claims this body and looks like Bruce but has like, a goatee or something.

Now THAT's a story. It would sure freak Bruce out, I know that much.

Then we'd start calling him Red Skull Ah Ghul

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

It'd be great if Morrison proved me wrong. Unfortunately, it rarely happens. There's a clear-cut path through the long-lost child device and 99% of the time, writers take it. Remember, Damien's story isn't over yet.

Oh, and when you mentioned that I pretty much described "Batman and Son"? Keep in mind that I haven't read any of Morrison's Batman issues. That's how trite and overused this plot is.

Dont let it bug you so much.The way I see it Ibn was the child we saw born in "Son of the Demon" ......Damien is clearly not that child due to the differences in the telling on how he was consieved.So you may one day still get to see Ibn again.

 

[Dragmire]

Ra's gets Tim Drake's body. Damien Lives. Game Over.

 

[the_ultimate_evil]

anyone else find it a bit out of character for tim to get so annoyed at not being bruce's true son. kinda forgets about the whole thing with his father in identity crisis and titans and before that

 

[Aristotle]

Ra's gets Tim Drake's body. Damien Lives. Game Over.

Don't you even ****ing joke about that, you son of a *****.

anyone else find it a bit out of character for tim to get so annoyed at not being bruce's true son. kinda forgets about the whole thing with his father in identity crisis and titans and before that

He wasn't annoyed about that, he was annoyed that Damian exists. So am I. I want to become a fictional character, just so I can strangle the life out of that little ****ball.

 

[PhotoJones]

That little ****ball would tear you to pieces.

 

[Aristotle]

That little ****ball would tear you to pieces.

No he wouldn't. I've got a preternatural ability to kill whiny *****es with mind-bullets. It's pretty useless mostly, because there just aren't that many TRUE whiny *****es in real life...but in fiction? ****, they're everywhere...Anakin Skywalker...Job...but none of them come close to Damien ****ing Wayne.

 

[PhotoJones]

What's wrong with Job?

 

[Aristotle]

What's wrong with Job?

Nothing, I needed a whiny ***** offhand, and he whined a lot. Not a *****, though. Take your pick of whiny fictional *****es and toss them in there instead. Super***** Prime, for example, would fit.