Homecoming The Side-Villains: the Shocker and Thinkerer thread!

[The Overlord]

I know, which is his charm. However, some want classic Mysterio's design with his updated personality that was in a Daredevil run as opposed to Spider-Man. Just doesn't work.

Except hokey Mysterio is a boring character, he has very little in terms of interesting defined characteristics, he is a gimmick character, a glorified plot device.

Every Mysterio story in Spider-Man is a variation the same story, Mysterio attacks with some gimmick (making Spider-Man think he is 6 inches tall, making Spider-Man think he is going crazy so that he will tell a fake psychologist his secret ID, etc) Spider-Man defeats the gimmick and beats up Mysterio, lather, rinse, repeat. Neither Spider-Man or Mysterio really develop as characters due to these conflicts, they come off as filler stories before Spidey fights a more interesting villain later.

To me, a dull villain is a villain who has no redeeming qualities, but never does anything worse then try to rob banks or kill the hero, there is no reason to care about the villain, I don't like him, I don't hate him I'm just annoyed we are wasting time on such a dull character. Mysterio in the Spider-Man comics is this kind of villain.

I dare anyone tell me what Mysterio's usual comic book personality is, besides generic super villain, I think it took them forever to come up with motive on why he was a super villain in the first place, when he could have just made money as a special effects artist.

Spider-Man comic book Mysterio is not a suitable Big Bad, he is at best a Hench man for a more ambitious villain or at worse, a comic relief villain Spidey beats up within 5 minutes, for a Mysterio that could carry a movie, you would need the sadistic mind breaker we saw from Daredevil, otherwise what's the point, there wouldn't be much of a story or character arc for Peter with regular old gimmicky Mysterio.

 

[harryoscop]

I agree. I don't want traditional goofy/comedic relief Mysterio either, especially if it's for a sequel in which the ante & stakes should be upped from Vulture & Shocker.

 

[PeterBenParker]

I do agree that with every new film, the stakes should be upped higher and higher but please don't make Mysterio something he's not.

If people have an issue with MJ being different, Flash being different, even Vulture being different, how come it's OK to change Mysterio? He works better looking over-the-top and his personality should reflect that.

Do people really want fishbowl Mysterio with a personality of a serial killer/insane individual? I really don't.

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You want a more serious villain? Pair him with Kraven. Easy solution.

 

[PeterBenParker]

Except hokey Mysterio is a boring character, he has very little in terms of interesting defined characteristics, he is a gimmick character, a glorified plot device.

Every Mysterio story in Spider-Man is a variation the same story, Mysterio attacks with some gimmick (making Spider-Man think he is 6 inches tall, making Spider-Man think he is going crazy so that he will tell a fake psychologist his secret ID, etc) Spider-Man defeats the gimmick and beats up Mysterio, lather, rinse, repeat. Neither Spider-Man or Mysterio really develop as characters due to these conflicts, they come off as filler stories before Spidey fights a more interesting villain later.

To me, a dull villain is a villain who has no redeeming qualities, but never does anything worse then try to rob banks or kill the hero, there is no reason to care about the villain, I don't like him, I don't hate him I'm just annoyed we are wasting time on such a dull character. Mysterio in the Spider-Man comics is this kind of villain.

I dare anyone tell me what Mysterio's usual comic book personality is, besides generic super villain, I think it took them forever to come up with motive on why he was a super villain in the first place, when he could have just made money as a special effects artist.

Spider-Man comic book Mysterio is not a suitable Big Bad, he is at best a Hench man for a more ambitious villain or at worse, a comic relief villain Spidey beats up within 5 minutes, for a Mysterio that could carry a movie, you would need the sadistic mind breaker we saw from Daredevil, otherwise what's the point, there wouldn't be much of a story or character arc for Peter with regular old gimmicky Mysterio.

So ultimately for all this time you've been defending Mysterio, you were never really defending Mysterio but just a specific, one-off version of the character? Ay caramba!

 

[AvegningSpider]

When i think of Mysterio, rather than thinking of the sadistic killer that almost caused Daredevil to go crazy, i think usually of the illusionist theatric voice fishbowl wearing supervillain, always with a weird made up Vincent Price like-accent.

 

[PeterBenParker]

When i think of Mysterio, rather than thinking of the sadistic killer that almost caused Daredevil to go crazy, i think usually of the illusionist theatric voice fishbowl wearing supervillain, always with a weird made up Vincent Price like-accent.

Exactly, and that's what he's best known as. Why change it, especially when you have a pool of talented comedic actors that could make the role so much fun?

 

[harryoscop]

Because he has to be menacing and terrifying if he's going to lead a film on his own. The stakes have to be larger and grander in scale. The version we saw in Guardian Devil is what we need for the film version. The goofy theatrical over-the-top personality that nobody takes seriously has to be heavily altered, it ain't gonna fly as the main villain. Marvel basically did the same thing with the Vulture, they're turning him into a legitimate threat as opposed to the running gag and joke that he was in the comics. And besides, Marvel has had no problem changing key characters like MJ, Flash and Aunt May, Mysterio definitely wouldn't be the exception. Imagine what somebody like Zachary Quinto could do with the role.

 

[AvegningSpider]

Menacing and Terrifying or an actually interesting character unlike some of the MCU's villains that aren't Loki.
All good with the creepy Mysterio, but personally, i want to see the intelligent special effects illusionist with that theatrical voice taking on Spider-Man.

 

[The Overlord]

So ultimately for all this time you've been defending Mysterio, you were never really defending Mysterio but just a specific, one-off version of the character? Ay caramba!

You can say the same thing about Mr. Freeze, how dare people like the sympathetic post BTAS Mr. Freeze over the one dimensional criminal with barely any motive Mr. Freeze? I demand all super villains remain as they were from day one, Claremont clearly ruined Magneto by changing him.

I guess Jessica Jones ruined Kilgrave, because he wasn't some bank robbing super villain, like was back in the 60s.

I like Mysterio as a concept, but most of his comic stories do nothing really interesting with one, its the same gimmicky story, over and over again, its fun at first, but it gets really boring really fast, because it becomes formulaic, every story with him ends up the same, he comes off as an annoyance rather then an actual threat, all he does his waste Spidey's time and almost nothing he does has any real consequence. He gets a few moments of brilliance, but they are buried under a sea of sub par stories. None of his stories rank up among Spidey's best adventures.


Also what is compelling about Spider-Man comic book Mysterio, what is his personality beyond generic super villain?

I think comic book fans who demand villains never change, are demanding static, stagnant villains.

I really don't see any reason for Mysterio to appear at all in the film series, if all he does is the same gimmicky M.O from 95% of his comics, that really does not seem epic enough to carry a movie, its more suited for a filler episode of a TV series.

Menacing and Terrifying or an actually interesting character unlike some of the MCU's villains that aren't Loki.
All good with the creepy Mysterio, but personally, i want to see the intelligent special effects illusionist with that theatrical voice taking on Spider-Man.

You can combine the two versions, with a very outgoing, fun loving extroverted personality that masks a more sinister, psychopathic personality underneath.

 

[NinjaTurtleFan]

I don't like the monster face in helmet.

He doesn't have to have it all the time. It could be just something that is seen in one of his illusions.

What do you guys think of something like they did with him in the "Spider-Man 2" videogame?

 

[AvegningSpider]

He doesn't have to have it all the time. It could be just something that is seen in one of his illusions.

What do you guys think of something like they did with him in the "Spider-Man 2" videogame?

That's one design i personally never was very fond of.
Though, i really do like this one, dunno' why:

 

[PeterBenParker]

Because he has to be menacing and terrifying if he's going to lead a film on his own. The stakes have to be larger and grander in scale. The version we saw in Guardian Devil is what we need for the film version. The goofy theatrical over-the-top personality that nobody takes seriously has to be heavily altered, it ain't gonna fly as the main villain. Marvel basically did the same thing with the Vulture, they're turning him into a legitimate threat as opposed to the running gag and joke that he was in the comics. And besides, Marvel has had no problem changing key characters like MJ, Flash and Aunt May, Mysterio definitely wouldn't be the exception. Imagine what somebody like Zachary Quinto could do with the role.

Strongly agree to disagree here.

I think I've seen most people advocate for classic fishbowl who owns his over-the-top facade as opposed to insane/threatening illusionist and as I said, if you want a more threatening, serious villain -- just use Kraven or someone else that is more naturally threatening/serious. No need to keep changing characters just for the sake of it (like they've already done with other key characters thus far).

Mysterio has never really been a leading villain anyway, regardless of how you shake him and that honestly shouldn't change unless you alter him but then he ceases to be the Mysterio everyone is familiar with.

Many have argued Vulture isn't leading material, either, and they're right..yet the film is focusing on what I (and some others have wanted) with putting Peter/Spidey's crisis of his double life and his world overall first with villains second, as it should be for this film.

 

[The Overlord]

Strongly agree to disagree here.

I think I've seen most people advocate for classic fishbowl who owns his over-the-top facade as opposed to insane/threatening illusionist and as I said, if you want a more threatening, serious villain -- just use Kraven or someone else that is more naturally threatening/serious. No need to keep changing characters just for the sake of it (like they've already done with other key characters thus far).

Mysterio has never really been a leading villain anyway, regardless of how you shake him and that honestly shouldn't change unless you alter him but then he ceases to be the Mysterio everyone is familiar with.

Many have argued Vulture isn't leading material, either, and they're right..yet the film is focusing on what I (and some others have wanted) with putting Peter/Spidey's crisis of his double life and his world overall first with villains second, as it should be for this film.

Except Kraven was not naturally more threatening till "Kraven's Last Hunt" he was pretty goofy and non threatening till that story. You argue that story changed Kraven, but was that really a bad change?

Nothing ventured, nothing gained, sometimes you have change villains who have become stale and I never agreed with fans who think villains should just stay static. That is not the attitude that produces compelling villains.

Should the writers just use Gobby and dr. Octopus, over and over again for the films, if we decide certain villains should remain one dimensional goof balls, because that is what they were in the comics.

I'm not saying Mysterio has to hack someone's head off and drink their blood, what I am saying is you make Mysterio a compelling and sinister Big Bad, who would provide a more unique plot, but still make things acceptable for a PG-13 movie. I would prefer that, then some misguided attempt to "faithful to the material" by demanding Mysterio be the same one dimensional goof ball he is in the comics. You have to change things as need by to make a successful movie, a to the letter adaption doesn't work.

 

[NinjaTurtleFan]

That's one design i personally never was very fond of.
Though, i really do like this one, dunno' why:

I could get behind that.

 

[harryoscop]

Strongly agree to disagree here.

I think I've seen most people advocate for classic fishbowl who owns his over-the-top facade as opposed to insane/threatening illusionist and as I said, if you want a more threatening, serious villain -- just use Kraven or someone else that is more naturally threatening/serious. No need to keep changing characters just for the sake of it (like they've already done with other key characters thus far).

it's only the costume i've seen ppl advocating for. Which I think should remain wholly intact (while updating it of course). And that's exactly what Marvel would do to Mysterio if they saw fit. As we've seen with other classic Spidey characters in this movie, they have literally no limits-- they'll change anybody no matter how important. Beck being a twisted sociopath wouldn't even be that big of change as he'd still retain his classic powers & design and it would be true to, one many consider, the best incarnation of Mysterio.

Mysterio has never really been a leading villain anyway, regardless of how you shake him and that honestly shouldn't change unless you alter him but then he ceases to be the Mysterio everyone is familiar with.

Which again, is the same case with literally every character in the movie. As you know, i've always been an advocate of Mysterio being the villain for this film. And I stand by that assessment, Mysterio could easily carry on his own, provided he's not the running joke gimmick that he is in the comics.

Many have argued Vulture isn't leading material, either, and they're right..yet the film is focusing on what I (and some others have wanted) with putting Peter/Spidey's crisis of his double life and his world overall first with villains second, as it should be for this film.

Because Vulture as he is in the comics simply is not leading villain material. That's why his design and overall vibe was drastically changed for this film... I mean, I would've liked something closer to the comics but the design does a great job of getting the point across that "This guy ain't no joke" he legitimately looks frightening. It's logical to assume Mysterio would get the same treatment because as it stands right now, he could never lead a Spidey 'as is' especially when he's suppose to be more dangerous than the Vulture. This guy HAS to be terrifying.

Now yeah, you could easily pair him up with a serious villain in Kraven-- but that's the easy way out and something tells me Marvel would give Mysterio "The Vulture treatment" seeing as he's the same exact "running gag" league as Toomes' is in the comics.

 

[JOE]

The only thing I'm lacking confidence in is the villain. Marvel is notorious for neglecting that aspect for a while now. With phase 3 they really need to step it up in that department, especially with Thanos inevitably coming to crash the party.

 

[Oscorp]

I honestly don't want a creepy Mysterio, but I also don't want him to just be another gimmicky villain-of-the-week.

I don't want Mysterio to be a Scarecrow wannabe. I don't want him to be all dark and scary. I also don't want him to be a joke.

I simply want Mysterio to be really smart. Have him confuse the hell out of Spidey, but also have him mock Spidey while doing it. Let him be theatrical and "funny", but not silly and cheesy. Like, he enjoys having the upper hand and seeing Spidey being lost.

Let him want to defeat Spidey for fame and attention. Not revenge or for having a bad childhood. That could be the "psychopathic" side of him, but not in a way that he's murdering people left and right in cold blood like someone like Cletus Kassidy.

 

[PeterBenParker]

I honestly don't want a creepy Mysterio, but I also don't want him to just be another gimmicky villain-of-the-week.

I don't want Mysterio to be a Scarecrow wannabe. I don't want him to be all dark and scary. I also don't want him to be a joke.

I simply want Mysterio to be really smart. Have him confuse the hell out of Spidey, but also have him mock Spidey while doing it. Let him be theatrical and "funny", but not silly and cheesy. Like, he enjoys having the upper hand and seeing Spidey being lost.

Let him want to defeat Spidey for fame and attention. Not revenge or for having a bad childhood. That could be the "psychopathic" side of him, but not in a way that he's murdering people left and right in cold blood like someone like Cletus Kassidy.

I actually think that's a good happy medium.

 

[The Overlord]

I honestly don't want a creepy Mysterio, but I also don't want him to just be another gimmicky villain-of-the-week.

I don't want Mysterio to be a Scarecrow wannabe. I don't want him to be all dark and scary. I also don't want him to be a joke.

I simply want Mysterio to be really smart. Have him confuse the hell out of Spidey, but also have him mock Spidey while doing it. Let him be theatrical and "funny", but not silly and cheesy. Like, he enjoys having the upper hand and seeing Spidey being lost.

Let him want to defeat Spidey for fame and attention. Not revenge or for having a bad childhood. That could be the "psychopathic" side of him, but not in a way that he's murdering people left and right in cold blood like someone like Cletus Kassidy.

Well I am not suggesting an R rated Mysterio, but there has to be real stakes with him if he us the Big Bad of a film. Mysterio spending 50 million on special effects to steal 1 million dollars from a bank is not a very compelling villain plan. Also Spidey being confused doesn't really lead to a climax does it? No real character arc there for Spidey.
You need a story that fits a movie and Mysterio just confusing Spidey over and over again doesn't build to a climax.

And smart is one of the most basic traits you can give a villain, there are several smart villains out there, what else makes Mysterio stand out?

Scarecrow can only use fear and has a gas that projects fears directly into people's minds, Mysterio can use happiness, guilt and a bunch of other emotions to screw with people and he has to set up his scenarios far in advandance, which is different from Scarecrow's one size fits all.

Mysterio doesn't have to kill everyone he sees, but ge should not be afraid of drawing blood either. He can kill off one hos henchman for good effect, kill the occasional person in specific ways to emotionally torment Peter and try to kill a bunch of people in the climax, but fails to do so, so Mysterio would have a low body count, but the deaths would have some emotional impact, because they are in service of a greater plan, rather then Carnage killing a bunch of people for fun with no plan.

 

[harryoscop]

I honestly don't want a creepy Mysterio, but I also don't want him to just be another gimmicky villain-of-the-week.

I don't want Mysterio to be a Scarecrow wannabe. I don't want him to be all dark and scary. I also don't want him to be a joke.

I simply want Mysterio to be really smart. Have him confuse the hell out of Spidey, but also have him mock Spidey while doing it. Let him be theatrical and "funny", but not silly and cheesy. Like, he enjoys having the upper hand and seeing Spidey being lost.

Let him want to defeat Spidey for fame and attention. Not revenge or for having a bad childhood. That could be the "psychopathic" side of him, but not in a way that he's murdering people left and right in cold blood like someone like Cletus Kassidy.

For a kids' saturday mourning cartoon, that would be great. I mean, him confusing Spidey? As Overlord said, how could/would that lead to a climax? How would they build upon him confusing people like he traditionally does in the comics and cartoons; how does that escalate? It would get boring and there's no real stakes at all. Comic Mysterio's personality and tactics don't work for a 2 hour movie with 3 acts.

I want a mind-breaker Mysterio. Someone who'll drive people insane. Somebody who will do anything to get what they want with NO remorse at all, the fame & attention motivation has to be dialed up to 11 in order to make him a viable threat for Spidey as the main villain.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

You want a more serious villain? Pair him with Kraven. Easy solution.

Why would Kraven team with Mysterio?

 

[Gamma Goliath]

Call me crazy but i dont see kraven as much of a threat unless spidey is poisoned or incapacitated.

 

[PeterBenParker]

Why would Kraven team with Mysterio?

Who said he'd team with him? We're getting Vulture and Shocker together in a film and yet it seems like they're not teaming.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Who said he'd team with him? We're getting Vulture and Shocker together in a film and yet it seems like they're not teaming.

Sorry you said pair them together I thought you mean team them up.

 

[The Overlord]

Who said he'd team with him? We're getting Vulture and Shocker together in a film and yet it seems like they're not teaming.

So what would Mysterio be, comic relief or just some intro villain dispatched within 5 minutes? That seems like a waste.

The only reason people think Kraven is more menacing then Mysterio is because of Kraven's Last Hunt, if Mysterio had an epic story like, instead of the usual gimmicky stories he has had in the Spidey titles, people would think he was more nenacing.

I am kinda sick of fans and writers demanding villains do the same things over and over again, stating that its what they have always done and to do anything different is to change and thus ruin the character, you do a character no favors by making them static.