The Villains Problem

[Another_Fool]

Worst villain this year? I'd have to go with Dr Zander Rice in Logan. Logan is fantastic and the main antagonist is Logan himself/his mortality but doesn't change the fact Rice is easily the weakest villain.

 

[Xeno]

Ares.

Ludendorrf and his lackey

Ares.

Ludendorrf and his lackey

Wonder Woman's villains were subpar, to say the least. Doctor Poison (that was her name, right?) and Ludendorff undercut their own supposed menace by being over-the-top "eeeevilll!!!1!!" in their behavior. The scenes where they did their villainous deeds were cringe-inducing, as were Ludendorff's [BLACKOUT]drug-sniffing binges[/BLACKOUT]. Ares was even more disappointing than the gassy duo. The big reveal was underwhelming and his appearance wasn't menacing at all. After several very good battles earlier in the film, the showdown with Ares fell prey to the mistakes of the other DCEU films and became a dark, CGI-addled mess. It's odd that the only good battles in WW involved foes who were mere mortals. That was a massive let-down.

 

[DACrowe]

It's not like there's a shortage of actors of Mads' quality, and seeing how he can seemingly not avoid his thick Danish accent there's not a huge list of villains that we expect to see that his voice will fit for. I have a hard time seeing this supposedly huge missed opportunity. He brought something to Kaecilius, and it didn't matter where the character originally came from, so it worked out.

Much better than Ares, who did manage to cross the line into ridiculousness at some points and looked unintentionally hilarious.

Mads is a wonderful actor. The part he got should have been worthy of his talents, or save him for a better part. Nationalities do not matter as much for villains as folks think. Mads would not even necessarily have to be a villain, but it's just such a waste, because actually there aren't that many actors as good as Mads. To throw him away is like, well, when they also threw away Ben Kingsley in a gag role, except at least then he got to have a few memorable laughs.

 

[hafizbat]

My dream was to see Mads as Dr. Doom

A villain worthy of the actor and an actor worthy of the villain. I still have some hope that Mads could come back as Dormammu's human form.

 

[Mjölnir]

Mads is a wonderful actor. The part he got should have been worthy of his talents, or save him for a better part. Nationalities do not matter as much for villains as folks think. Mads would not even necessarily have to be a villain, but it's just such a waste, because actually there aren't that many actors as good as Mads. To throw him away is like, well, when they also threw away Ben Kingsley in a gag role, except at least then he got to have a few memorable laughs.

As seen I don't agree with you. I think he's a really good actor (unlike my Danish friend who tends to rant about him) but I don't think that's particularly rare. It would be a different thing if Keaton and Blanchett didn't get much to do, but even there it's all about having the actor service the character, not the other way around. As for Kingsley, I wouldn't be surprised if he found the role he had more rewarding than playing a more one-note villain. He has said that he'd like to come back to play the character.

Mads could have done more, and I certainly wouldn't be against if his role was larger (although it would have to be a bit different film), but I don't think it's needed for the MCU to get more out of him.

My dream was to see Mads as Dr. Doom

A villain worthy of the actor and an actor worthy of the villain. I still have some hope that Mads could come back as Dormammu's human form.

I see where that comes from but I don't really think he has the voice to be a really commanding presence from behind a mask. Doom can be pretty brash and have a forceful arrogance, and I'm not sure he'd be the one to show that.

 

[hafizbat]

^That's true. With Doom voice is probably the most important factor.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Mads is a wonderful actor. The part he got should have been worthy of his talents, or save him for a better part. Nationalities do not matter as much for villains as folks think. Mads would not even necessarily have to be a villain, but it's just such a waste, because actually there aren't that many actors as good as Mads. To throw him away is like, well, when they also threw away Ben Kingsley in a gag role, except at least then he got to have a few memorable laughs.

Couldn't agree more. Any average actor could have brought 'something' to the role of Kaecilius as he was virtually a non entity in the movie. Save Mads for a number of superior roles down the line.

Personally I thought Kaecilius was worse than Ares as a villain.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

Couldn't agree more. Any average actor could have brought 'something' to the role of Kaecilius as he was virtually a non entity in the movie. Save Mads for a number of superior roles down the line.

Personally I thought Kaecilius was worse than Ares as a villain.

I don't see what Ares did better than Kaecilius on any level. Kaecilius had a good look, Ares looked unintentionally hilarious. Mikkelsen put on a consistently good performance with what he had to work with, Thewlis managed to hit rock bottom with his "i will destroy you" line. Kaecilius had more interesting things to say about his goal to save humanity from death than Ares had about his jealousy of humanity. Kaecilius had a significant accomplishment during the movie in killing the Ancient One, Ares had none.

The one thing I guess I can give Ares is that he got to fight the final fight. It wasn't nearly as good as how Doctor Strange dealt with Dormammu, but Kaecilius wasn't part of that.

 

[hafizbat]

I don't see what Ares did better than Kaecilius on any level. Kaecilius had a good look, Ares looked unintentionally hilarious. Mikkelsen put on a consistently good performance with what he had to work with, Thewlis managed to hit rock bottom with his "i will destroy you" line. Kaecilius had more interesting things to say about his goal to save humanity from death than Ares had about his jealousy of humanity. Kaecilius had a significant accomplishment during the movie in killing the Ancient One, Ares had none.

The one thing I guess I can give Ares is that he got to fight the final fight. It wasn't nearly as good as how Doctor Strange dealt with Dormammu, but Kaecilius wasn't part of that.

This

Kaecillius is not part of the "villains problem". But then, I've never had a problem with MCU villains because I buy in to the hero-centric focus of their movies where the villain's main purpose is to serve as a foil for the hero rather than being a dynamic game changer like the Joker in TDK.

 

[Tony Stark]

I was just remembering that Danny Huston now has the infamy of playing two crappy villains in two different comic book films. Ludendorff in Wonder Woman and an attempt at a younger William Stryker in X-men Origins: Wolverine.

 

[Visualiza]

I don't see what Ares did better than Kaecilius on any level. Kaecilius had a good look, Ares looked unintentionally hilarious. Mikkelsen put on a consistently good performance with what he had to work with, Thewlis managed to hit rock bottom with his "i will destroy you" line. Kaecilius had more interesting things to say about his goal to save humanity from death than Ares had about his jealousy of humanity. Kaecilius had a significant accomplishment during the movie in killing the Ancient One, Ares had none.

The one thing I guess I can give Ares is that he got to fight the final fight. It wasn't nearly as good as how Doctor Strange dealt with Dormammu, but Kaecilius wasn't part of that.

Co-signed. I respect JAMON's opinion but I genuinely can't see how someone can come to that in the first place. Missed opportunity/potential because of the actor in the role is more of an externality; it isn't really fair to judge the role based on something like that. Comparing the two of them based on their respective appearances, and the difference just seems pretty clear to me. Kaecilius wasn't particularly good, but he wasn't awful or distracting in the same way that say, Enchantress, Eisenlex, or even Letoker were. Those are legitimately awful genre villains. I'd even go as far as to say that Ares comes close due to how underwhelming, ineffectual, and downright hammy he was. I'd give points to Ares if they went for a Sauron type of vibe, but needless to say, that's absolutely not what happened.

 

[GeckoMoria]

I still can't understand the laughing scene in WW after they locked the door. it was really jarring.

 

[Ivan Drago]

I just re-watched the Wonder Woman and Ares fight on youtube, it's so cartoony and silly lol.

 

[Flint Marko]

I don't see what Ares did better than Kaecilius on any level. Kaecilius had a good look, Ares looked unintentionally hilarious. Mikkelsen put on a consistently good performance with what he had to work with, Thewlis managed to hit rock bottom with his "i will destroy you" line. Kaecilius had more interesting things to say about his goal to save humanity from death than Ares had about his jealousy of humanity. Kaecilius had a significant accomplishment during the movie in killing the Ancient One, Ares had none.

The one thing I guess I can give Ares is that he got to fight the final fight. It wasn't nearly as good as how Doctor Strange dealt with Dormammu, but Kaecilius wasn't part of that.

Yup. I'll never understand the standard some have for villains - Apocalypse was awesome, Ultron sucked? Ares was good, Kaecilius wasn't? I'm not going to die on this hill defending either of those Marvel villains too hard (Ultron is definitely the best villain out of every one I just named, but they are all various degrees of half-baked) but it seems that, to some, a villain is automatically elevated if they aren't in a Marvel film.

 

[Ivan Drago]

Worst villain this year? I'd have to go with Dr Zander Rice in Logan. Logan is fantastic and the main antagonist is Logan himself/his mortality but doesn't change the fact Rice is easily the weakest villain.

I think Donald Pierce is probably the main villain. Rice is just.... there, but his screen time is pretty small.

 

[2kt09]

I think Donald Pierce is probably the main villain. Rice is just.... there, but his screen time is pretty small.

Man behind the curtain pulling the strings, He just wasn't a twist in any sense nor a formidable adversary. Plus, is the actor playing Rice typically good at acting?

 

[hafizbat]

Yup. I'll never understand the standard some have for villains - Apocalypse was awesome, Ultron sucked? Ares was good, Kaecilius wasn't? I'm not going to die on this hill defending either of those Marvel villains too hard (Ultron is definitely the best villain out of every one I just named, but they are all various degrees of half-baked) but it seems that, to some, a villain is automatically elevated if they aren't in a Marvel film.

Spoiler

Double standards when it comes to the MCU

 

[TeeKay]

I don't see what Ares did better than Kaecilius on any level. Kaecilius had a good look, Ares looked unintentionally hilarious. Mikkelsen put on a consistently good performance with what he had to work with, Thewlis managed to hit rock bottom with his "i will destroy you" line. Kaecilius had more interesting things to say about his goal to save humanity from death than Ares had about his jealousy of humanity. Kaecilius had a significant accomplishment during the movie in killing the Ancient One, Ares had none.

The one thing I guess I can give Ares is that he got to fight the final fight. It wasn't nearly as good as how Doctor Strange dealt with Dormammu, but Kaecilius wasn't part of that.

The scene where Kaecilius is locked in that body cage and explains his motivation puts him wayyy above Ares. Ares was not far behind Rhino especially when he spouted out the I will destroy you line. Ares was just there so WW can have a punching contest.

 

[Boy Scout]

Spoiler

Double standards when it comes to the MCU

Perhaps, but the double standard goes both ways.

 

[hafizbat]

Perhaps, but the double standard goes both ways.

How so?

 

[Flint Marko]

I didn't dislike Ares or Danny Huston's character in WW. They were perfectly serviceable canon fodder whose sole purpose was to prop up our hero, which is exactly how I'd describe most of the MCU villains that people regularly criticize.

That's why the debates around Ares vs. Kaecilius or whatever half-baked villains always confound me; the same people are typically on the same side of each debate when, really, it just comes down to which studio/franchise they prefer. Let's all just admit that Hollywood has a villain problem, and not just Marvel, who has undeniably made progress in 2017.

 

[StormC]

Yeah, I can't as an MCU fan get too critical of Wonder Woman's villains. I love Guardians Of The Galaxy but Ronan might be the worst MCU villain behind Malekith. I'm just happy Phase 3 has gone a long way to improve on their previous efforts.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Yup. I'll never understand the standard some have for villains - Apocalypse was awesome, Ultron sucked? Ares was good, Kaecilius wasn't? I'm not going to die on this hill defending either of those Marvel villains too hard (Ultron is definitely the best villain out of every one I just named, but they are all various degrees of half-baked) but it seems that, to some, a villain is automatically elevated if they aren't in a Marvel film.

Yet I listed Ego as the best villain so far this year in the 2017 thread. Some double standard.

And I wouldn't classify Ares as good, he was serviceable, which I found to be more than Kaecilius was.

Perhaps, but the double standard goes both ways.

Oh it definitely does. Some villains get elevated just because they are MCU villains.

 

[2kt09]

WW is quite the travesty in the DCEU villain dept. To go from seemingly talked to death to...eh multiplied by 3.

Yeah, I can't as an MCU fan get too critical of Wonder Woman's villains. I love Guardians Of The Galaxy but Ronan might be the worst MCU villain behind Malekith.

Pace's Ronan isn't what I'm accustomed to, but I wouldn't claim he's worse than Malekith. I'm still having a hard time describing Malekith.

 

[StormC]

Pace's Ronan isn't what I'm accustomed to, but I wouldn't claim he's worse than Malekith. I'm still having a hard time describing Malekith.

"Worst villain behind Malekith" meaning he would be second worst. Sorry, should have been more clear.