Homecoming The Zendaya is Mary Jane thread - Part 1

[Kurenai]

 

[NotSoLongAgo]

Big difference between MJ and Strange is that hes a grown ass man and she's a teenage girl still finding her way

 

[X Knight]

so I just came across this pic of Zendaya online:

why couldn't they have gone with a look like this if they wanted a more nerdy Ultimate MJ?

she's got her hair back and is wearing glasses, but she's still beautiful and attractive looking. she looks more "conservative" here but in no way looks plain or frumpy.

certainly much better than the set pics look.

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

MJ has been traditionally ( and up until this point ALWAYS ) been a white, red head. Now, she's black/bi-racial and may not even have red hair. How is that any different from making Cyclops Puerto Rican and bald?

Incorrect.

 

[X Knight]

Big difference between MJ and Strange is that hes a grown ass man and she's a teenage girl still finding her way

back in the day ( now I'm sounding old...lol ), I knew 14/15 year old girls who were already bubbly, outgoing, sassy, flirty, and "wild." I don't know if they had to "find their way" or undergo some extreme transformation to get there. but by the start of HS, they were already like that.

 

[X Knight]

Incorrect.

what's that from??

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

Meera Jain from the 4 part miniseries, Spider-Man: India. There's also a Japanese Mary Jane.

here are 2 more pages: http://mjwatson-daily.tumblr.com/post/143056654281/astierfan-stay-out-of-trouble-pavitr

 

[Dark Raven]

Big difference between MJ and Strange is that hes a grown ass man and she's a teenage girl still finding her way

Well Strange was just one example. If you don't like that, then it's like having an irresponsible ladies' man pre-spider bite Peter who goes through a character arc where he becomes socially awkward and shy and learns responsibility. But then he is bitten by a spider, and goes through another arc where he gains social confidence again becomes irresponsible and has to learn the lesson of "with great power comes great responsibility" all over again.

And he's not a grown ass man but a teenage boy still finding his way.

So he's got to go through one arc for us to find him in the place we first meet him in the comics where we would normally witness him going through that same arc that he had to go through before we actually met him.

And this is what I'm saying about imposing an arc on MJ when it's the wrong arc for her character as it just brings her back to the place where we're wanting to see her go through an arc that reveals to us that she was like this character she is before she goes through that first arc. And if that sounds confusing, that's because making the characters go through two different arcs which are completely opposite to one another would be confusing and unnecessary.

 

[X Knight]

Meera Jain from the 4 part miniseries, Spider-Man: India. There's also a Japanese Mary Jane.

here are 2 more pages: http://mjwatson-daily.tumblr.com/post/143056654281/astierfan-stay-out-of-trouble-pavitr

ah, thanks.

well, I should have qualified my initial statement. I meant mainstream incarnation of the character.

Spider-Man: India and Japanese Spider-Man aren't mainstream versions of the character.

however, even Meera Jain is drawn to be hot and has reddish hair.

 

[X Knight]

Well Strange was just one example. If you don't like that, then it's like having an irresponsible ladies' man pre-spider bite Peter who goes through a character arc where he becomes socially awkward and shy and learns responsibility. But then he is bitten by a spider, and goes through another arc where he gains social confidence again becomes irresponsible and has to learn the lesson of "with great power comes great responsibility" all over again.

And he's not a grown ass man but a teenage boy still finding his way.

So he's got to go through one arc for us to find him in the place we first meet him in the comics where we would normally witness him going through that same arc that he had to go through before we actually met him.

And this is what I'm saying about imposing an arc on MJ when it's the wrong arc for her character as it just brings her back to the place where we're wanting to see her go through an arc that reveals to us that she was like this character she is before she goes through that first arc. And if that sounds confusing, that's because making the characters go through two different arcs which are completely opposite to one another would be confusing and unnecessary.

yep.

and that is assuming we even get to see "classic" MJ by the end of the film. we don't know that for sure. it's just speculation for now.

for all we know, we may have to wait until the 2nd film to finally see the "real" MJ.

or, like the DCEU Superman, we might have to wait for the 4th or 5th film to finally get the character right.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

definitely of the impression that she is a significantly better choice than either of these girls.

But I'm just hoping for red hair.

 

[Lobo]

I'm fine with Zendaya playing MJ. I think she could pull off classic MJ. I even think she'd look great with red hair. I haven't been following Homecoming much but the set pics all had her dressed down. Would I be wrong in presuming they're going for a She's All That angle?

Also it's been awhile, but I don't think we have ever seen Mary Jane before she created her bubbly outgoing persona as a mask for her troubled home life. Though it's been years since I read Spidey.

Anyway, I'll wait and see what the filmmakers have in store. Though there are some things I'm not big to big a fan of that I'm reading as I'm scanning this forum.

I want Tony to only be a cameo for instance. Anyway that's my two cents.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

In regards to GOTG, I had no prior familiarity ( and thus no prior attachment or preconceived notions ) to the characters. I only knew about Rocket Racoon cuz he was in the Marvel Vs Capcom 3 game.

so I had no idea they race changed Star Lord or whatever changes they made to the characters.

Yes, I understand. We hold certain characters closer to the chest over others.

But, it's still a valid point to be made. Star Lord in the movie bears almost no resemblance to his comic counterpart--in terms of his character, motivation, origins and abilities. They made changes to Drax too. Marvel has been making changes to many characters over the course of their run of films. Zemo from CW in also a huge change. He also bears almost no resemblance to the comic, not in looks, motivation, origins, backstory. Other changes include Obidiah from IM, Hank Pym in Antman, the list goes on and on...

Marvel has made drastic changes to many of the characters in their movies rergarding looks, origins, backstories, abilities, etc. yet I can't remember this amount of concern going around about such changes, in fact, I've seen more praise and putting Marvel on a pedestal for what they've done. So, when it comes to being upset over a race change for MJ...makes no sense considering the history of Marvel and their films.

Homecoming so far, seems to have less changes in it than GotG made with its characters and Zendaya's possible role as MJ looks to have way more in common with the comic book counterpart than Pratt's SL.

 

[X Knight]

I'm fine with Zendaya playing MJ. I think she could pull off classic MJ. I even think she'd look great with red hair. I haven't been following Homecoming much but the set pics all had her dressed down. Would I be wrong in presuming they're going for a She's All That angle?

Also it's been awhile, but I don't think we have ever seen Mary Jane before she created her bubbly outgoing persona as a mask for her troubled home life. Though it's been years since I read Spidey.

Anyway, I'll wait and see what the filmmakers have in store. Though there are some things I'm not big to big a fan of that I'm reading as I'm scanning this forum.

I want Tony to only be a cameo for instance. Anyway that's my two cents.

just looked up the movie She's All That.

the premise of that is that a dorky, unattractive, solitary art student is turned into the prom queen beauty.

so, it does seem they are going for a similar angle.

however, as I've said before, I just don't feel that MJ should start out as a dorky, unattractive, solitary person. Unless it has been part of her character's history in the comics, which I'm not aware of but I could be wrong, that just doesn't fit the character, imo.

MJ shouldn't have to start in that state to "become" the classic MJ we all want to see.

 

[X Knight]

Yes, I understand. We hold certain characters closer to the chest over others.

But, it's still a valid point to be made. Star Lord in the movie bears almost no resemblance to his comic counterpart--in terms of his character, motivation, origins and abilities. They made changes to Drax too. Marvel has been making changes to many characters over the course of their run of films. Zemo from CW in also a huge change. He also bears almost no resemblance to the comic, not in looks, motivation, origins, backstory. Other changes include Obidiah from IM, Hank Pym in Antman, the list goes on and on...

Marvel has made drastic changes to many of the characters in their movies rergarding looks, origins, backstories, abilities, etc. yet I can't remember this amount of concern going around about such changes, in fact, I've seen more praise and putting Marvel on a pedestal for what they've done. So, when it comes to being upset over a race change for MJ...makes no sense considering the history of Marvel and their films.

Homecoming so far, seems to have less changes in it than GotG made with its characters and Zendaya's possible role as MJ looks to have way more in common with the comic book counterpart than Pratt's SL.

well, perhaps the fact that there's more passionate feelings about MJ's changes is a testament to just how popular and important that character is.

and, with all due respect to GOTG fans, I'd say the GOTG characters, up until their movie debut, were nowhere near as mainstream popular as MJ from the Spider-Man comics.

for many, the GOTG was their first real exposure to those characters and their world. And as I've said before, characters who are less mainstream popular and familiar, who are "lower" on the tier of characters, have more leeway in making changes.

Same with Zemo, Obidiah, and Hank Pym, as you mentioned. Outside of the comic world, those just aren't popular, well known characters. I had never heard or Zemo or Obidiah before. They also don't have multiple prior mainstream adaptations that can be compared to.

A character like MJ has been in multiple adaptations when you count the comics, films, animated series, games, etc. And in all of those, she has had a consistent look and personality throughout.

So, the "image" and "perception" of that character is more ingrained in people's mind than say Star Lord or Zemo or Ant-Man.

thus, any deviations are bound to ignite more passionate debate.

just look at the threads here. You hear hardly nary a peep that Liz Allan is black. But the Zendaya is MJ thread is getting all the attention and passion.

it just shows just how much MJ is in a different league compared to a character like Liz.

 

[NinjaTurtleFan]

Zendaya is stunningly gorgeous. There's no denying that but both Dunst and Woodley had/have more acting experience than her. Other than Disney shows and a Disney animated "Tinkerbell" movie, she really doesn't have a wide filmography or acting career compared to those two. Just saying.

 

[Lobo]

well, perhaps the fact that there's more passionate feelings about MJ's changes is a testament to just how popular and important that character is.

and, with all due respect to GOTG fans, I'd say the GOTG characters, up until their movie debut, were nowhere near as mainstream popular as MJ from the Spider-Man comics.

for many, the GOTG was their first real exposure to those characters and their world. And as I've said before, characters who are less mainstream popular and familiar, who are "lower" on the tier of characters, have more leeway in making changes.

Same with Zemo, Obidiah, and Hank Pym, as you mentioned. Outside of the comic world, those just aren't popular, well known characters. I had never heard or Zemo or Obidiah before. They also don't have multiple prior mainstream adaptations that can be compared to.

A character like MJ has been in multiple adaptations when you count the comics, films, animated series, games, etc. And in all of those, she has had a consistent look and personality throughout.

So, the "image" and "perception" of that character is more ingrained in people's mind than say Star Lord or Zemo or Ant-Man.

thus, any deviations are bound to ignite more passionate debate.

just look at the threads here. You hear hardly nary a peep that Liz Allan is black. But the Zendaya is MJ thread is getting all the attention and passion.

it just shows just how much MJ is in a different league compared to a character like Liz.

I'd say Lois and MJ are in a different league to any other heroes love interest. People are still complaining about Lois hair.

As for not having to make an arc for MJ from bookworm to prom queen status, I agree, but it seems that's what we're getting.

Zendaya can definitely pull off classic MJ imo, though.

 

[NinjaTurtleFan]

well, perhaps the fact that there's more passionate feelings about MJ's changes is a testament to just how popular and important that character is.

and, with all due respect to GOTG fans, I'd say the GOTG characters, up until their movie debut, were nowhere near as mainstream popular as MJ from the Spider-Man comics.

for many, the GOTG was their first real exposure to those characters and their world. And as I've said before, characters who are less mainstream popular and familiar, who are "lower" on the tier of characters, have more leeway in making changes.

Same with Zemo, Obidiah, and Hank Pym, as you mentioned. Outside of the comic world, those just aren't popular, well known characters. I had never heard or Zemo or Obidiah before. They also don't have multiple prior mainstream adaptations that can be compared to.

A character like MJ has been in multiple adaptations when you count the comics, films, animated series, games, etc. And in all of those, she has had a consistent look and personality throughout.

So, the "image" and "perception" of that character is more ingrained in people's mind than say Star Lord or Zemo or Ant-Man.

thus, any deviations are bound to ignite more passionate debate.

just look at the threads here. You hear hardly nary a peep that Liz Allan is black. But the Zendaya is MJ thread is getting all the attention and passion.

it just shows just how much MJ is in a different league compared to a character like Liz.

BINGO!

But at the same time, both Liz Allan and Sally Avril have been race-changed in the cartoons and even in the movies before. MJ, however, is and has always been bigger than those two so it's different to see her go through a race-change than say those ladies.

Same goes for Flash to me as well. I can see why they wanted to go a new route than Zylka's but they still could've made him a blonde and done something different than what Chris did. Ned Leeds I feel is a wasted opportunity seeing as they could've made him a future Hobgoblin (if they wanted to go that route). Now, it's possible this kid could lose all the weight and undergo a transformation from flab to fab, but seems like they really wanted to have Ganke and just combined him with Ned. Heck, I said it many times before the kid would've been PERFECT for Kenny Kong.

Now, for many on here they don't care as long as she has some kind of arc and her hair color ends up red somehow if she is indeed MJ. But since Marvel Studios got the rights back to Spider-Man, I was hoping we were going to get a natural redheaded actress to play the part; someone who had many of MJ's characteristics, personality and looked like a model but can also be a good actress too.

Certainly, Zendaya has things about her outside of what the set pics that have been shown in her professional career, that read MJ to me, but I still wish we could've got an actual redhead for the part. *Shrugs*

This is something that's going to stick with me and I'll probably never let it go. These characters aren't who they are but will take some traits or things from the comics to make them feel like they are. However, unlike some on here I am not going to boycott the film or hate the film because I didn't get this or that. I still am eager to see Shocker and Vulture in live-action, I'm always and will always be excited for a Spider-Man film even if it turns out bad and will find some positives in any of them, and I'm eager to see what MCU does with Spider-Man past his films.

But there's some things I will not like about this film as others will and there's nothing really I or anyone can do about it. As someone pointed out, the director, producers, writers, and all involved in the production, they're making the shots. We're just fans and hoping it will all work out.

 

[X Knight]

I never thought I'd dislike a Spidey film before until I sat through TASM.

because of that, I didn't even bother to see TASM 2 in theaters. Waited until long after it went to DVD to watch it, and actually liked it a bit better than TASM......lol.

I totally skipped out on that last Fantastic Four movie cuz it just sounded like a disaster.

I've skipped Suicide Squad because of the so-so reviews.

so, yeah, I will skip and boycott ( and hate on ) a film if that's how I feel about it.

 

[X Knight]

BINGO!

But at the same time, both Liz Allan and Sally Avril have been race-changed in the cartoons and even in the movies before. MJ, however, is and has always been bigger than those two so it's different to see her go through a race-change than say those ladies.

Same goes for Flash to me as well. I can see why they wanted to go a new route than Zylka's but they still could've made him a blonde and done something different than what Chris did. Ned Leeds I feel is a wasted opportunity seeing as they could've made him a future Hobgoblin (if they wanted to go that route). Now, it's possible this kid could lose all the weight and undergo a transformation from flab to fab, but seems like they really wanted to have Ganke and just combined him with Ned. Heck, I said it many times before the kid would've been PERFECT for Kenny Kong.

Now, for many on here they don't care as long as she has some kind of arc and her hair color ends up red somehow if she is indeed MJ. But since Marvel Studios got the rights back to Spider-Man, I was hoping we were going to get a natural redheaded actress to play the part; someone who had many of MJ's characteristics, personality and looked like a model but can also be a good actress too.

Certainly, Zendaya has things about her outside of what the set pics that have been shown in her professional career, that read MJ to me, but I still wish we could've got an actual redhead for the part. *Shrugs*

This is something that's going to stick with me and I'll probably never let it go. These characters aren't who they are but will take some traits or things from the comics to make them feel like they are. However, unlike some on here I am not going to boycott the film or hate the film because I didn't get this or that. I still am eager to see Shocker and Vulture in live-action, I'm always and will always be excited for a Spider-Man film even if it turns out bad and will find some positives in any of them, and I'm eager to see what MCU does with Spider-Man past his films.

But there's some things I will not like about this film as others will and there's nothing really I or anyone can do about it. As someone pointed out, the director, producers, writers, and all involved in the production, they're making the shots. We're just fans and hoping it will all work out.

I still find it hard to believe, that out of all the young Caucasian actresses out there today, they couldn't find one who's a good actress and who could nail the look of comic book MJ.

heck, in the Casting thread here, there were dozens and dozens of actresses put forth here who could have nailed the character lookwise ( their acting talents were up for debate, though.....lol ).

but no. out of all the actresses available today, they chose.........Zendaya?

They made sure to get a grand slam, near perfect casting choice for Peter by choosing Tom. and a near universally praised casting choice, too, I might add.

and then they went and did something which they KNOW would cause controversy and division amongst the fans ( hence why the coyness and mystery around the character ) and they cast Zendaya as MJ.

really, Marvel and creative team?? really??

I have a hard time believing it. which is why, the more I look at what they did to the rest of the cast, I think they decided to race change MJ from the very start and they looked at actresses with that specific ethnic makeup. Hence why purportedly Zendaya and that Amandla girl auditioned for the part.

I wouldn't be surprised if we learn they never even bothered to look at Caucasian actresses for the part.

 

[Dark Raven]

MJ's arc here is like one's vision is clear as we start off seeing her as she really is, but by the end of the film when she gets the makeover our vision of her is blurry because now we're only seeing a facade, and we've got to endure another reverse arc so our vision becomes clear again and we see her as she really is and learn to look beyond the makeover.

 

[marijuanawatson]

I have no problem with changing Mary Jane's race. But what worries me is the rumors that she's a glasses-wearing geek girl or something similar, and we're not getting a proper adaptation of what made MJ so interesting. Honestly, I can't think of any adapation that really did her justice outside of maybe Spectacular Spider-Man. Not even the first movie.

MJ, to me, was interesting because of how she foiled Peter. After the abuse she suffers as a child, she wears a metaphorical mask, becoming a cheery, ditsy party girl to hide her trauma. In contrast to Peter, who wears a literal mask to confront his responsibilities, MJ wore hers to escape from it. And a couple of adaptations have touched upon her upbringing, but none of them went into the parallels between her and Peter, how she coped through her sadness by putting on a happy face and putting herself in the spotlight. What makes her romance with Peter so great is that it isn't just him sharing his secret with her, she does the same, and unmasks herself to him.

And the other problem is the one Marvel has seemed to have with MJ for years, and that is because she's a pretty supermodel and a party girl, she's not good enough for Peter. Several writers have even actually stated that Peter marrying a supermodel makes his life "easier" as if she wasn't an actual character, and just a prop to make Peter's life easier, and that's much more problematic than this whole reverse racism argument. The idea that Peter needs a geek girl, someone interested in science, or the like all seem to be based on the idea that because MJ is conventionally attractive, she's a stuck-up *****, she's too shallow, she's not right for Peter and only loves him because he's Spider-Man.
And really, that's part of the whole reason why MJ became such a breakout character. She wasn't designed to be Peter's love interest. She wasn't a reporter assigned to Spider-Man or his nurse or science partner. She was a girl with her own life and her own interests, and her romance with Peter wasn't destiny or being perfect for each other, it was an awkward accident of two people learning to open up to each other. That's the biggest reason why MJ became so popular. She wasn't a love interest. She was her own character, who fell in love.

And there's no reason the above can't apply to a black MJ, or an Asian MJ, or a hispanic MJ. But Marvel seems to have had a stick up their ass for years about her, and that Peter can't be with a pretty popular girl because that's too easy for him. And that's what worries me about Homecoming, and I'd be worried even if she was a white girl, because MJ isn't a geek girl, that's completely changing her character.

But that's just a rumor. If they're not real, and she can finally do MJ's backstory justice on the big screen, then I'll happily accept Zendaya as Mary Jane. If the rumors are true, then it's just one more time Marvel shoved MJ into a corner.

Couldn't have it better myself. I'm a black girl myself and I thinks it's wonderful that MJ is now black! But I'm soooo scared that they're changing her character. Not to forget the cliche, old and sexist She's All That trope.

 

[Web-Head]

definitely of the impression that she is a significantly better choice than either of these girls.

But I'm just hoping for red hair.

Not better than Shailene, imo

 

[NinjaTurtleFan]

I still find it hard to believe, that out of all the young Caucasian actresses out there today, they couldn't find one who's a good actress and who could nail the look of comic book MJ.

heck, in the Casting thread here, there were dozens and dozens of actresses put forth here who could have nailed the character lookwise ( their acting talents were up for debate, though.....lol ).

but no. out of all the actresses available today, they chose.........Zendaya?

They made sure to get a grand slam, near perfect casting choice for Peter by choosing Tom. and a near universally praised casting choice, too, I might add.

and then they went and did something which they KNOW would cause controversy and division amongst the fans ( hence why the coyness and mystery around the character ) and they cast Zendaya as MJ.

really, Marvel and creative team?? really??

I have a hard time believing it. which is why, the more I look at what they did to the rest of the cast, I think they decided to race change MJ from the very start and they looked at actresses with that specific ethnic makeup. Hence why purportedly Zendaya and that Amandla girl auditioned for the part.

I wouldn't be surprised if we learn they never even bothered to look at Caucasian actresses for the part.

Couldn't agree more with you, man.

I feel in some ways too and I've said it before, Disney might've pushed Zendaya to be cast because she's done a lot of TV shows for them and is popular/recognizable with kids and teens and because of that, she's a safe bet for them. Many of us had really great picks for MJ but alas... they'll just be fantasy MJs in our minds.

The other part of it, too, is that she might've solely got cast because of the Sony leaks made Sony looked bad so these race-switches and changes are playing damage control. Look at the Oscars and how Hollywood was doing everything in its power--- especially the Academy--- to make themselves look good and bring back good PR with minority groups.

Sure, Queens is culturally diverse so they wanted to reflect that landscape and that's fine, but could've still done it without changing some characters who are known throughout the Spider-Man universe ala having a mixture of original characters and Spiderverse characters. I mean it can't be that hard to make up classroom or gymnasium scenes with traditionalized versions of Liz, Sally, Ned, MJ, Harry, Gwen, etc. but also in the background are different ethnicities who have lines and play a part in Peter's life. I mean it's not like the Daily Bugle isn't culturally diverse. It's not like Peter's life in the comics wasn't culturally diverse or has gotten culturally diverse in the Ultimate books and modern comics.

But alas....

 

[X Knight]

and this just occurred to me.......

How much screentime does Z's MJ really have in this film?

Wasn't the speculation when she was first cast that she'd have a relatively minor role in the 1st film that would be expanded upon in future films? Is that still the expectation, or has more info come out that her role might be bigger?

Isn't Liz Allan the main LI in this story, not MJ?

And didn't El Mayimbe's scoop say that they would "drop hints" that Michelle is really MJ throughout the film? He never said she would actually "become" MJ by the end, did he?

So, iow, we really don't know how much screentime and importance Z's MJ will have in this film. We are all expecting ( and hoping ) that she will complete the transformation arc into the classic MJ that we all know and love by the end of the film, ending it with the Tiger/Jackpot line.

But, that's just speculation, isn't it?

For all we know, she may not even have much screentime or that big of a role to play in this 1st film, and her transformation arc may not even be complete by the end of the 1st film ( they're "dropping hints" that she's MJ ).

We may very well have to wait for the 2nd film, or beyond even, to finally see the classic MJ.

It's not like she's the titular character, or main LI, or the main object of focus like the She's All That film. the dorky, unattractive girl undergoing the transformation in She's All That is the star and main LI of that movie. MJ is not.

So, IOW, in this film, MJ may be relegated to a minor supporting role with not much screentime or importance, with an unneeded, contrived transformation arc which may or may not even be complete by the end of the film.

.......yeah........