Homecoming The Zendaya is Mary Jane thread - Part 1

[NotSoLongAgo]

False equivalence fallacies abound

 

[KalvinEllis]

oh, and for the next X-Men reboot, I propose the following:

Cyclops is a fat, bald Puerto Rican who grew up in the slums. Jean is a rich Chinese girl with a phoenix tattooed on her back. And Storm is a Native American who comes from a long line of "Weather Shamans" in her tribe. Oh, and Storm is in a lesbian relationship with Jean.

I mean. look at that diversity!! Not just in terms of race and nationality, but also body sizes, sexual orientation, and socio-economic backgrounds.

Other than that, they all have the same powers as their traditional counterparts.

 

[Neno_Kos]

oh, and for the next X-Men reboot, I propose the following:

Cyclops is a fat, bald Puerto Rican who grew up in the slums. Jean is a rich Chinese girl with a phoenix tattooed on her back. And Storm is a Native American who comes from a long line of "Weather Shamans" in her tribe. Oh, and Storm is in a lesbian relationship with Jean.

I mean. look at that diversity!! Not just in terms of race and nationality, but also body sizes, sexual orientation, and socio-economic backgrounds.

Other than that, they all have the same powers as their traditional counterparts.

i dont wish anybody what we Spider-Man fans are going through right now. Nobody. I would personally do anything to for this movie not see release date.

 

[jasontodd]

oh, and for the next X-Men reboot, I propose the following:

Cyclops is a fat, bald Puerto Rican who grew up in the slums. Jean is a rich Chinese girl with a phoenix tattooed on her back. And Storm is a Native American who comes from a long line of "Weather Shamans" in her tribe. Oh, and Storm is in a lesbian relationship with Jean.

I mean. look at that diversity!! Not just in terms of race and nationality, but also body sizes, sexual orientation, and socio-economic backgrounds.

Other than that, they all have the same powers as their traditional counterparts.

As long as it was part of the MCU, every single one of those decisions and changes would be defended and celebrated by almost everyone, because it would be considered more progressive and updated.

 

[Abudefduf]

I think people are jumping the gun a little bit. I'll agree that those set pics weren't reassuring, but I can't imagine MS would hire an actress who could so obviously give us an accurate MJ and then not let her do it. That would be just dumb. Like casting Paul Rudd as Ant-Man and then not take advantage of his comedic chops.

i dont wish anybody what we Spider-Man fans are going through right now.

Eh, there are worse things. Like being a Captain Marvel fan and hearing that her movie almost didn't get greenlit because Perlmutter was against it... because Catwoman sucked or something.

 

[BatsDC]

As long as it was part of the MCU, every single one of those decisions and changes would be defended and celebrated by almost everyone, because it would be considered more progressive and updated.

That absolutely wouldn't be the case, because those are ridiculously exaggerated and major changes, beyond just race. What a ridiculous assertion. At the end of this movie you will have an MJ who likely looks like the MJ from the comics, and acts like the MJ from the comics. Who cares if she has to go through an arc to get there?

 

[PeterBenParker]

At the end of this movie you will have an MJ who likely looks like the MJ from the comics, and acts like the MJ from the comics. Who cares if she has to go through an arc to get there?

Just about everybody on this forum.

I guess I can see their point, too, because they don't wanna see MJ go through an arc to be MJ just like I don't wanna see Peter go through an arc to be Peter, but eh.

The Zendaya/MJ stuff doesn't concern me, really. Only thing I'd find silly is if she's Michelle Jane or Michelle Johnson instead of Mary Jane.

 

[auditor]

People are getting too excited. I'm against changing the look of characters whom are too iconic. For example I don't want a Chinese nor Hispanic batman.

But I can accept a black mary Jane. When most characters were created our society was dominated by whites. As a result most fictional characters were white. They have to look for opportunities to correct that without changing the look of characters who are considered extremely iconic.

Wishful thinking aside, race still plays a role in shaping the experiences and identity for people. It affects the way people see themselves. On top of the fact we form a emotional attachment to the appearance of a character.

I don't think its right to call people racist it they don't like this. We all know how comic fans are she it comes to changing the characters. I was against a black Spider-Man. I'm ok with a black MJ. I really think she could do great as MJ. She seems perfect for MJ'S character traits.

 

[auditor]

I was ok with a black electro. I would be furious with a non black Jon Stewart Green Lantern.

 

[auditor]

Just about everybody on this forum.

I guess I can see their point, too, because they don't wanna see MJ go through an arc to be MJ just like I don't wanna see Peter go through an arc to be Peter, but eh.

The Zendaya/MJ stuff doesn't concern me, really. Only thing I'd find silly is if she's Michelle Jane or Michelle Johnson instead of Mary Jane.

I hate how we have to go through an arc to see Superman become Superman.

Sorry to go off topic

 

[Havok83]

People are getting too excited. I'm against changing the look of characters whom are too iconic. For example I don't want a Chinese nor Hispanic batman.

But I can accept a black mary Jane. When most characters were created our society was dominated by whites. As a result most fictional characters were white. They have to look for opportunities to correct that without changing the look of characters who are considered extremely iconic.

MJ is iconic. She is THE lead female in the Spider-man franchise. You didnt see much of a stink when Liz was changed to black but she's less iconic and rather minor in comparison. MJ though? Shes a pretty big deal. Besides they've already changed Liz's race. Why did they have to go and do it to the other female love interest?

And there is nothing to correct. To correct something implies that something was wrong and there was nothing wrong with MJ being a white woman. By and large, most people fall for and settle down with someone like them. Its normal and not out of the ordinary whether its a Peter and MJ in the 60s or in 2016

 

[jasontodd]

That absolutely wouldn't be the case, because those are ridiculously exaggerated and major changes, beyond just race. What a ridiculous assertion. At the end of this movie you will have an MJ who likely looks like the MJ from the comics, and acts like the MJ from the comics. Who cares if she has to go through an arc to get there?

Actually that's not much different or ridiculous than the multitude of changes made in Spider-Man Homecoming. His point, though slightly exaggerated, still applies. Because of the acceptance and defense of these changes already present in Homecoming, if Marvel was able to secure the rights back for X-men and that was the list of changes, based on the reception from most to Spider-Man Homecoming's deviations from source material, it would be met with a chorus of "they're Marvel they know what they are doing and I trust them". I want a definitive take on Spider-Man that has the same characters as the comic book mythos. Why is that suddenly wrong or out of date? Changing aspects of certain characters in order to service the story or to work for your adaptation is one thing, but wholesale changes on the level of Spider-Man Homecoming is unnecessary and disappointing.

 

[SirStrangefolk]

What's next? A black J. Jonah Jameson?

Spoiler

YES PLEASE!

 

[X Knight]

Just about everybody on this forum.

I guess I can see their point, too, because they don't wanna see MJ go through an arc to be MJ just like I don't wanna see Peter go through an arc to be Peter, but eh.

The Zendaya/MJ stuff doesn't concern me, really. Only thing I'd find silly is if she's Michelle Jane or Michelle Johnson instead of Mary Jane.

that's it. some characters have a story arc where they undergo a transformation into the character we know.

For example, Bruce Wayne training his mind, body, and spirit to become Batman. James Howlett going through that traumatic childhood where he transforms from sickly, frail James into badass, rugged Logan/Wolverine.

Those transformation arcs are established parts of the character's history.

Other characters are already just "there." Peter is already a science nerd. We don't really need to know or see how he transforms into that science nerd. Just like we don't really need to know or see how MJ transforms from buttoned up, plain, awkward wallflower into fun loving, beautiful party girl. especially when said transformation has never really been part of her backstory.

Not every character needs to have a transformation arc, especially one where they go from complete opposite to where they are supposed to be.

Actually that's not much different or ridiculous than the multitude of changes made in Spider-Man Homecoming. His point, though slightly exaggerated, still applies. Because of the acceptance and defense of these changes already present in Homecoming, if Marvel was able to secure the rights back for X-men and that was the list of changes, based on the reception from most to Spider-Man Homecoming's deviations from source material, it would be met with a chorus of "they're Marvel they know what they are doing and I trust them". I want a definitive take on Spider-Man that has the same characters as the comic book mythos. Why is that suddenly wrong or out of date? Changing aspects of certain characters in order to service the story or to work for your adaptation is one thing, but wholesale changes on the level of Spider-Man Homecoming is unnecessary and disappointing.

yeah. I was being sarcastic and exaggerating a bit with my X-Men example.

but, as you said, how is it really different?

MJ has been traditionally ( and up until this point ALWAYS ) been a white, red head. Now, she's black/bi-racial and may not even have red hair. How is that any different from making Cyclops Puerto Rican and bald?

MJ has traditionally been portrayed as a hot, beautiful girl who's fun loving and out going, whether she's more the 616 party girl or the Ultimate nerd. Now, she's apparently starting out as a very plain looking, buttoned up, wallflower who's super dry and awkward and bookish.

How is that any different from making Cyclops overweight to start with ( and maybe immature and lazy, too )?

Sure, by the end of the film, he'll get himself into shape and become the mature, responsible fearless leader of the X-Men that we know and love. How is that any different from Z's MJ going from where she is now to the classic MJ we know and love?

Or, Half Asian badass assassin Cassandra Cain is now blonde and white and an airhead. Sure, by the end of the film, she gets trained by Batman and becomes the badass assassin the character is supposed to be.

You can't say it's ok to do what they are doing to MJ in Homecoming and say it's not ok to make those changes to Cyclops or Cassandra.

after all, as long the character "becomes" the character he/she is supposed to be by the end of the arc, it should be ok, right?

 

[PeterBenParker]

I hate how we have to go through an arc to see Superman become Superman.

Sorry to go off topic

Not going off topic, it's relevant to the point I made. Some just don't wanna have to watch things be dragged out just to see their hero be a hero or whatever.

 

[Supa]

I have no problem with changing Mary Jane's race. But what worries me is the rumors that she's a glasses-wearing geek girl or something similar, and we're not getting a proper adaptation of what made MJ so interesting. Honestly, I can't think of any adapation that really did her justice outside of maybe Spectacular Spider-Man. Not even the first movie.

MJ, to me, was interesting because of how she foiled Peter. After the abuse she suffers as a child, she wears a metaphorical mask, becoming a cheery, ditsy party girl to hide her trauma. In contrast to Peter, who wears a literal mask to confront his responsibilities, MJ wore hers to escape from it. And a couple of adaptations have touched upon her upbringing, but none of them went into the parallels between her and Peter, how she coped through her sadness by putting on a happy face and putting herself in the spotlight. What makes her romance with Peter so great is that it isn't just him sharing his secret with her, she does the same, and unmasks herself to him.

And the other problem is the one Marvel has seemed to have with MJ for years, and that is because she's a pretty supermodel and a party girl, she's not good enough for Peter. Several writers have even actually stated that Peter marrying a supermodel makes his life "easier" as if she wasn't an actual character, and just a prop to make Peter's life easier, and that's much more problematic than this whole reverse racism argument. The idea that Peter needs a geek girl, someone interested in science, or the like all seem to be based on the idea that because MJ is conventionally attractive, she's a stuck-up *****, she's too shallow, she's not right for Peter and only loves him because he's Spider-Man.
And really, that's part of the whole reason why MJ became such a breakout character. She wasn't designed to be Peter's love interest. She wasn't a reporter assigned to Spider-Man or his nurse or science partner. She was a girl with her own life and her own interests, and her romance with Peter wasn't destiny or being perfect for each other, it was an awkward accident of two people learning to open up to each other. That's the biggest reason why MJ became so popular. She wasn't a love interest. She was her own character, who fell in love.

And there's no reason the above can't apply to a black MJ, or an Asian MJ, or a hispanic MJ. But Marvel seems to have had a stick up their ass for years about her, and that Peter can't be with a pretty popular girl because that's too easy for him. And that's what worries me about Homecoming, and I'd be worried even if she was a white girl, because MJ isn't a geek girl, that's completely changing her character.

But that's just a rumor. If they're not real, and she can finally do MJ's backstory justice on the big screen, then I'll happily accept Zendaya as Mary Jane. If the rumors are true, then it's just one more time Marvel shoved MJ into a corner.

 

[PeterBenParker]

that's it. some characters have a story arc where they undergo a transformation into the character we know.

For example, Bruce Wayne training his mind, body, and spirit to become Batman. James Howlett going through that traumatic childhood where he transforms from sickly, frail James into badass, rugged Logan/Wolverine.

Those transformation arcs are established parts of the character's history.

Other characters are already just "there." Peter is already a science nerd. We don't really need to know or see how he transforms into that science nerd. Just like we don't really need to know or see how MJ transforms from buttoned up, plain, awkward wallflower into fun loving, beautiful party girl. especially when said transformation has never really been part of her backstory.

Not every character needs to have a transformation arc, especially one where they go from complete opposite to where they are supposed to be.

I agree that not every character has to go through an arc, but since they're going out of their way to make Peter his own man over time, might as well do something with all of the characters, I guess.

I'm not a fan as I said and I really don't like the idea of having to wait to see Peter be Stark-free, but that seems to be where they're headed.

As I said, if they made MJ be who she is within her debut (as in when we first see her) but made Peter go through his stuff, then I'd feel just as bad about it because while the MJ fans are satisfied, some Peter fans would not be.

Majority on here are fine with watching Peter become his own person over time but I'm just not, really and I dislike the idea of having to wait to see what was already done quite well in both series..which is maybe why they're doing it because the past series did it? I don't know..

 

[X Knight]

I hate how we have to go through an arc to see Superman become Superman.

Sorry to go off topic

heh. I agree, too. which is why I'm not too enthused by the DCEU, either.

you shouldn't have to go through 4 or 5 films to finally get the Superman we know and love.

and what good is Superman finally becoming the "real" Superman by the end of the multi film arc when the journey, the experience we had getting there wasn't so great because it never really did the character justice.

 

[Frodo]

At this point, if you're a purist and it really upsets you that much they change the races of comicbook characters, minor or large, in DC or Marvel films and tv shows, then don't watch it. You don't have to see it if you think its such a great betrayal to the comics or source material

There are plenty of other versions in media from cartoons, earlier films, and comics, in which these characters are represented as they were originally created.

 

[X Knight]

I agree that not every character has to go through an arc, but since they're going out of their way to make Peter his own man over time, might as well do something with all of the characters, I guess.

I'm not a fan as I said and I really don't like the idea of having to wait to see Peter be Stark-free, but that seems to be where they're headed.

As I said, if they made MJ be who she is within her debut (as in when we first see her) but made Peter go through his stuff, then I'd feel just as bad about it because while the MJ fans are satisfied, some Peter fans would not be.

Majority on here are fine with watching Peter become his own person over time but I'm just not, really and I dislike the idea of having to wait to see what was already done quite well in both series..which is maybe why they're doing it because the past series did it? I don't know..

I wouldn't be happy if they basically made Stark Peter's benefactor and "sugar daddy."

because that does take away a key aspect of the Peter's character - the "everyman" who has to deal with life issues ( girls, bills, etc. ) while saving the world.

so I'm not exactly giddy about Stark's inclusion, either. but it just depends on how much involvement Stark has in Peter's life.

 

[X Knight]

At this point, if you're a purist and it really upsets you that much they change the races of comicbook characters, minor or large, in DC or Marvel films and tv shows, then don't watch it. You don't have to see it if you think its such a great betrayal to the comics or source material

There are plenty of other versions in media from cartoons, earlier films, and comics, in which these characters are represented as they were originally created.

you are correct - minus the race part. It's not just changing MJ's race that has me upset. It's seemingly changing her entire character - possibly even changing her name for whatever reason. And the character change is more important than just the race change.

And it's not just the changes to MJ that have me upset, it's the changes to pretty much the entire HS school, to the point where none of the characters look or feel recognizable to me. They're not just changing races around, but seemingly changing the type and personalities of the characters. Flash is not a jock but an "intellectual bully" now who doesn't even look that physically intimidating. Betty is now HS age, but she apparently looks and acts like SSM Sally Avril. etc.

and right now, I feel like I'm almost at that point of not wanting to see the new MCU Spidey series because of the direction they seem to be going with. They have perfect casting with Tom, interesting casting with Keaton as the villain, but the rest......questionable and sometimes downright headscratching.

and it's unfortunate cuz I was so happy when Marvel finally got to get their chance with Spidey.

 

[NotNickFury]

What's next? A black J. Jonah Jameson?

Spoiler

YES PLEASE!

Well, there was buzz, April Fool's or not, that people wanted Ice Cube to be J Jonah Jameson, and I'd see that if he was anything like his character from the Jump Street films.

 

[X Knight]

I have no problem with changing Mary Jane's race. But what worries me is the rumors that she's a glasses-wearing geek girl or something similar, and we're not getting a proper adaptation of what made MJ so interesting. Honestly, I can't think of any adapation that really did her justice outside of maybe Spectacular Spider-Man. Not even the first movie.

MJ, to me, was interesting because of how she foiled Peter. After the abuse she suffers as a child, she wears a metaphorical mask, becoming a cheery, ditsy party girl to hide her trauma. In contrast to Peter, who wears a literal mask to confront his responsibilities, MJ wore hers to escape from it. And a couple of adaptations have touched upon her upbringing, but none of them went into the parallels between her and Peter, how she coped through her sadness by putting on a happy face and putting herself in the spotlight. What makes her romance with Peter so great is that it isn't just him sharing his secret with her, she does the same, and unmasks herself to him.

And the other problem is the one Marvel has seemed to have with MJ for years, and that is because she's a pretty supermodel and a party girl, she's not good enough for Peter. Several writers have even actually stated that Peter marrying a supermodel makes his life "easier" as if she wasn't an actual character, and just a prop to make Peter's life easier, and that's much more problematic than this whole reverse racism argument. The idea that Peter needs a geek girl, someone interested in science, or the like all seem to be based on the idea that because MJ is conventionally attractive, she's a stuck-up *****, she's too shallow, she's not right for Peter and only loves him because he's Spider-Man.
And really, that's part of the whole reason why MJ became such a breakout character. She wasn't designed to be Peter's love interest. She wasn't a reporter assigned to Spider-Man or his nurse or science partner. She was a girl with her own life and her own interests, and her romance with Peter wasn't destiny or being perfect for each other, it was an awkward accident of two people learning to open up to each other. That's the biggest reason why MJ became so popular. She wasn't a love interest. She was her own character, who fell in love.

And there's no reason the above can't apply to a black MJ, or an Asian MJ, or a hispanic MJ. But Marvel seems to have had a stick up their ass for years about her, and that Peter can't be with a pretty popular girl because that's too easy for him. And that's what worries me about Homecoming, and I'd be worried even if she was a white girl, because MJ isn't a geek girl, that's completely changing her character.

But that's just a rumor. If they're not real, and she can finally do MJ's backstory justice on the big screen, then I'll happily accept Zendaya as Mary Jane. If the rumors are true, then it's just one more time Marvel shoved MJ into a corner.

well said.

 

[auditor]

MJ is iconic. She is THE lead female in the Spider-man franchise. You didnt see much of a stink when Liz was changed to black but she's less iconic and rather minor in comparison. MJ though? Shes a pretty big deal. Besides they've already changed Liz's race. Why did they have to go and do it to the other female love interest?

And there is nothing to correct. To correct something implies that something was wrong and there was nothing wrong with MJ being a white woman. By and large, most people fall for and settle down with someone like them. Its normal and not out of the ordinary whether its a Peter and MJ in the 60s or in 2016

There was nothing wrong with MJ being white. Of course not. There was a problem with every single person of importance being white. And that does need correcting.

Mj is iconic, but less so compared to Spider-Man, Batman, Superman ect. And we need some of those iconic characters to not be white. Not just for poltical correctness either. The movies are more entertaining this way.

 

[auditor]

I hope to god we dont have to go through an arc to see MJ become MJ.