Homecoming The Zendaya is Mary Jane thread - Part 1

[marijuanawatson]

IMO, the reason Marvel is backing themselves into a corner and are deciding on these drastic changes for MJ is mostly because they might be putting MJ in high school.

They need the character MJ, to fit the Jon Hughes 80's vibe. Unfortunately, Jon Watts/Marvel has decided to pigeon hole the supporting cast into outdated cliche 80's teen movie archetypes. They may be trying to avoid having a 15-year-old girl be a bombshell to a half adult audience, also. And to differentiate themselves from previous installments. That's where the character changes are coming from. This all could have been avoided if they wait until college to introduce her.

I know it's been almost a decade since we've last seen MJ, but I'd rather wait a few more years and have an accurate portrayal than this weird Michelle hybrid version.

I love that she's black tho. Just not down for these personality and backstory changes.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

I'd like to point out all this arguing and debating and hand wringing is based on ASSUMPTIONS and SPECULATION. None of us have seen the script. None of us has seen any footage (unless you were at Comic Con). Sure, some things concern me, but I don't have all the information. I just have to wait like all of you for the film to come out. And based on what Marvel has done in the past, I can't wait! t:

 

[X Knight]

MJ's arc here is like one's vision is clear as we start off seeing her as she really is, but by the end of the film when she gets the makeover our vision of her is blurry because now we're only seeing a facade, and we've got to endure another reverse arc so our vision becomes clear again and we see her as she really is and learn to look beyond the makeover.

and that just further muddies the water. because that calls into question who is the "real" MJ?

is it the dorky, awkward, super dry, buttoned up, bookish MJ pre transformation?

is it the fun loving, outgoing, bombshell gorgeous party girl MJ? But that's supposed to be the facade, the mask.

So....which one is the real MJ??

if the real MJ is actually the awkward bookish pre transformation MJ, then that raises the question.......why transform in the 1st place? To please guys, to please others? That doesn't send a very positive message, especially to young girls.

and if the awkward bookish MJ is the facade, and the party girl MJ is the "real" MJ, then that's a** backwards, isn't it?

 

[Stringer]

I still find it hard to believe, that out of all the young Caucasian actresses out there today, they couldn't find one who's a good actress and who could nail the look of comic book MJ.

heck, in the Casting thread here, there were dozens and dozens of actresses put forth here who could have nailed the character lookwise ( their acting talents were up for debate, though.....lol ).

but no. out of all the actresses available today, they chose.........Zendaya?

They made sure to get a grand slam, near perfect casting choice for Peter by choosing Tom. and a near universally praised casting choice, too, I might add.

and then they went and did something which they KNOW would cause controversy and division amongst the fans ( hence why the coyness and mystery around the character ) and they cast Zendaya as MJ.

really, Marvel and creative team?? really??

I have a hard time believing it. which is why, the more I look at what they did to the rest of the cast, I think they decided to race change MJ from the very start and they looked at actresses with that specific ethnic makeup. Hence why purportedly Zendaya and that Amandla girl auditioned for the part.

I wouldn't be surprised if we learn they never even bothered to look at Caucasian actresses for the part.

Strange you would undermine your own faith in Marvel's casting in the same post.

 

[X Knight]

Strange you would undermine your own faith in Marvel's casting in the same post.

no. I'm perplexed by Marvel's casting.

they made a solid casting choice with Tom.

but questionable casting choices with Zendaya and pretty much the rest of the HS cast.

 

[Stringer]

Why are you questioning when you're so happy with Holland for the role? Obviously they know what they're doing. Or is it simply because you agreed with the choice that they're now validated?

 

[X Knight]

Couldn't agree more with you, man.

I feel in some ways too and I've said it before, Disney might've pushed Zendaya to be cast because she's done a lot of TV shows for them and is popular/recognizable with kids and teens and because of that, she's a safe bet for them. Many of us had really great picks for MJ but alas... they'll just be fantasy MJs in our minds.

The other part of it, too, is that she might've solely got cast because of the Sony leaks made Sony looked bad so these race-switches and changes are playing damage control. Look at the Oscars and how Hollywood was doing everything in its power--- especially the Academy--- to make themselves look good and bring back good PR with minority groups.

Sure, Queens is culturally diverse so they wanted to reflect that landscape and that's fine, but could've still done it without changing some characters who are known throughout the Spider-Man universe ala having a mixture of original characters and Spiderverse characters. I mean it can't be that hard to make up classroom or gymnasium scenes with traditionalized versions of Liz, Sally, Ned, MJ, Harry, Gwen, etc. but also in the background are different ethnicities who have lines and play a part in Peter's life. I mean it's not like the Daily Bugle isn't culturally diverse. It's not like Peter's life in the comics wasn't culturally diverse or has gotten culturally diverse in the Ultimate books and modern comics.

But alas....

yep. it's a headscratcher and a shame.

 

[BAMFsnikt]

Sure, Queens is culturally diverse so they wanted to reflect that landscape and that's fine, but could've still done it without changing some characters who are known throughout the Spider-Man universe ala having a mixture of original characters and Spiderverse characters. I mean it can't be that hard to make up classroom or gymnasium scenes with traditionalized versions of Liz, Sally, Ned, MJ, Harry, Gwen, etc. but also in the background are different ethnicities who have lines and play a part in Peter's life. I mean it's not like the Daily Bugle isn't culturally diverse. It's not like Peter's life in the comics wasn't culturally diverse or has gotten culturally diverse in the Ultimate books and modern comics.

This is the issue. Black people aren't props. This isn't throwing a pillow on a couch to add ambiance. It's insane that people are on here, thinking sprinkling a few Black people in the background -- with "lines" (how kind to allow them to speak) -- is the best way to include diversity in these films. It boggles the mind.

Absolutely, it wouldn't surprise me if they deliberately went after a Black actress for this role -- and there's nothing wrong with that. Clearly, the producers of this film realized that they should try harder than including throw pillows in this movie.

 

[X Knight]

Why are you questioning when you're so happy with Holland for the role? Obviously they know what they're doing. Or is it simply because you agreed with the choice that they're now validated?

so, because I was happy with one casting choice, I have to automatically like, accept, and approve every subsequent casting choice??

I don't have blind faith in Marvel or any other studio or director or whatever.

I evaluate each casting choice independently. I evaluate each movie independently.

After Tom's casting, I certainly had high hopes for the future castings, especially with MJ ( which I said from the very beginning would probably be the next most critical casting choice after Tom ).

and I've been let down, disappointed, and bewildered ever since with their casting choices. the only exception being Keaton as the villain.

 

[marijuanawatson]

no. I'm perplexed by Marvel's casting.

they made a solid casting choice with Tom.

but questionable casting choices with Zendaya and pretty much the rest of the HS cast.

Because the issues that fans had with Tobey's and Andrew's versions were....very loud and clear and Marvel wanted to fix that.

Also, apparently you cannot alter the white straight cis men who are the titular characters like Peter, Bruce, Clark, Tony, etc. Because god forbid you change the lead white male characters.... god forbid white straight lead males become anything other than white straight lead males. Those are the untouchables according to fans and executives.

What I find interesting is that when the third spidey reboot was announced the biggest concern and loudest voice was of those who didn't want a third white heterosexual spider-man. People were so disappointed when the casting shortlist came out because for the most part a lot of people wanted a Spider-Man of color. Marvel didn't change that...

Basically Marvel always get's the lead protagonist right down to the tea but ****s up the supporting cast. I have no problem with MJ being black but this geeky version has smoke coming from my nostrils. And this is only the second iteration, why change her so drastically?

 

[X Knight]

This is the issue. Black people aren't props. This isn't throwing a pillow on a couch to add ambiance. It's insane that people are on here, thinking sprinkling a few Black people in the background -- with "lines" (how kind to allow them to speak) -- is the best way to include diversity in these films. It boggles the mind.

Absolutely, it wouldn't surprise me if they deliberately went after a Black actress for this role -- and there's nothing wrong with that. Clearly, the producers of this film realized that they should try harder than including throw pillows in this movie.

as I've said before, Peter actually has a large enough supporting cast that can offer a diverse mix of characters, without having to change any of the main characters ( Peter, MJ, Gwen, Harry ).

SSM was proof of that. You had Blacks, Hispanics, Asians and Whites in Peter's inner circle of friends. add in the Daily Bugle crowd, and you can have an even more diverse group of characters.

what you do is make those supporting cast characters actual characters who are part of Peter's daily life. you make them interesting. you make them more than props. and you do that while still retaining the core elements of the characters.

in Homecoming, it seems they are taking the diversity "agenda" to the extreme.

they are wholesale changing characters, mixing them around, slapping names on them that don't really fit, and otherwise making these characters different and quite unrecognizable from their traditional comic counterparts.

if you want to make Flash Black or Indian or Pacific Islander, do it. but at least make him a jock bully who's more physically intimidating than Peter, because that's his core character type.

if you want to make MJ Black, fine, do it. but don't make her an awkward, bookish, frumpy, plain looking girl because that is the complete opposite of her character type.

 

[marijuanawatson]

so, because I was happy with one casting choice, I have to automatically like, accept, and approve every subsequent casting choice??

I don't have blind faith in Marvel or any other studio or director or whatever.

I evaluate each casting choice independently. I evaluate each movie independently.

After Tom's casting, I certainly had high hopes for the future castings, especially with MJ ( which I said from the very beginning would probably be the next most critical casting choice after Tom ).

and I've been let down, disappointed, and bewildered ever since with their casting choices. the only exception being Keaton as the villain.

Exactly. When I saw an almost perfect comic book Peter Parker in Civil War I got so excited for Homecoming because I thought it was going to be the most comic book accurate Spidey film to date, because it was Marvel! I thought because the character was at home....

I should of known after the young, sexy totally not struggling financially Aunt May though!

 

[X Knight]

IMO, the reason Marvel is backing themselves into a corner and are deciding on these drastic changes for MJ is mostly because they might be putting MJ in high school.

They need the character MJ, to fit the Jon Hughes 80's vibe. Unfortunately, Jon Watts/Marvel has decided to pigeon hole the supporting cast into outdated cliche 80's teen movie archetypes. They may be trying to avoid having a 15-year-old girl be a bombshell to a half adult audience, also. And to differentiate themselves from previous installments. That's where the character changes are coming from. This all could have been avoided if they wait until college to introduce her.

I know it's been almost a decade since we've last seen MJ, but I'd rather wait a few more years and have an accurate portrayal than this weird Michelle hybrid version.

I love that she's black tho. Just not down for these personality and backstory changes.

well, "bombshell" may not be the right word or appropriate for HS MJ.

but look at Ultimate MJ or SSM MJ. both of those are versions of HS MJ. and in both, MJ is very pretty. she's beautiful. she's not plain and frumpy and awkward, not even nerdy Ultimate MJ. She's the girl who turns the heads when she walks into the prom or a party.

the words dorky, bookish, super dry, awkward, plain, buttoned up, frumpy should never be associated with MJ. that's just not her character - they are the antithesis of her character.

just like dishonorable, sneaky, cowardly, frail, sickly should never be associated with Clark Kent - they are the opposite of what the character is and should be.

 

[NinjaTurtleFan]

This is the issue. Black people aren't props. This isn't throwing a pillow on a couch to add ambiance. It's insane that people are on here, thinking sprinkling a few Black people in the background -- with "lines" (how kind to allow them to speak) -- is the best way to include diversity in these films. It boggles the mind.

Absolutely, it wouldn't surprise me if they deliberately went after a Black actress for this role -- and there's nothing wrong with that. Clearly, the producers of this film realized that they should try harder than including throw pillows in this movie.

Lmao! Where did I ever insinuate that black people should be "props" or any minorities? You're the one that went there; not I. All I was saying is that you can have/usemany different characters (original and comics) and give them some functionality to do whether in classroom scenes, bus scenes, gymnasium scenes, on the street, etc.

Throw pillows? Really?

I... just... wow. Speechless.

 

[X Knight]

Exactly. When I saw an almost perfect comic book Peter Parker in Civil War I got so excited for Homecoming because I thought it was going to be the most comic book accurate Spidey film to date, because it was Marvel! I thought because the character was at home....

I should of known after the young, sexy totally not struggling financially Aunt May though!

but....but.......Tony Stark will so totally hook up with sexy Aunt May.

and then they'll get married, and Peter Parker will become Peter Stark!!

 

[NinjaTurtleFan]

as I've said before, Peter actually has a large enough supporting cast that can offer a diverse mix of characters, without having to change any of the main characters ( Peter, MJ, Gwen, Harry ).

SSM was proof of that. You had Blacks, Hispanics, Asians and Whites in Peter's inner circle of friends. add in the Daily Bugle crowd, and you can have an even more diverse group of characters.

what you do is make those supporting cast characters actual characters who are part of Peter's daily life. you make them interesting. you make them more than props. and you do that while still retaining the core elements of the characters.

in Homecoming, it seems they are taking the diversity "agenda" to the extreme.

they are wholesale changing characters, mixing them around, slapping names on them that don't really fit, and otherwise making these characters different and quite unrecognizable from their traditional comic counterparts.

THIS! All of this! t:

 

[marijuanawatson]

as I've said before, Peter actually has a large enough supporting cast that can offer a diverse mix of characters, without having to change any of the main characters ( Peter, MJ, Gwen, Harry ).

SSM was proof of that. You had Blacks, Hispanics, Asians and Whites in Peter's inner circle of friends. add in the Daily Bugle crowd, and you can have an even more diverse group of characters.

what you do is make those supporting cast characters actual characters who are part of Peter's daily life. you make them interesting. you make them more than props. and you do that while still retaining the core elements of the characters.

in Homecoming, it seems they are taking the diversity "agenda" to the extreme.

they are wholesale changing characters, mixing them around, slapping names on them that don't really fit, and otherwise making these characters different and quite unrecognizable from their traditional comic counterparts.

if you want to make Flash Black or Indian or Pacific Islander, do it. but at least make him a jock bully who's more physically intimidating than Peter, because that's his core character type.

if you want to make MJ Black, fine, do it. but don't make her an awkward, bookish, frumpy, plain looking girl because that is the complete opposite of her character type.

Agreed. Regarding the whole diversity thing, I think it should have gone down like this.

Have Ganke, Sally, Liz, (Latino ver), Flash, Cindy, Debra Whitman (black ver), etc in Peter's time in high school and save Gwen, MJ, Harry for college while introducing the diverse Bugle staff and the college ones while maybe keeping a few characters from high school that stick with audiences. Yay! You have a diverse cast throughout all films without putting characters into blenders!

 

[marijuanawatson]

but....but.......Tony Stark will so totally hook up with sexy Aunt May.

and then they'll get married, and Peter Parker will become Peter Stark!!

LOL! t:

 

[BAMFsnikt]

Lmao! Where did I ever insinuate that black people should be "props" or any minorities? You're the one that went there; not I. All I was saying is that you can have/usemany different characters (original and comics) and give them some functionality to do whether in classroom scenes, bus scenes, gymnasium scenes, on the street, etc.

Throw pillows? Really?

I... just... wow. Speechless.

"Sure, Queens is culturally diverse so they wanted to reflect that landscape and that's fine, but could've still done it without changing some characters who are known throughout the Spider-Man universe ala having a mixture of original characters and Spiderverse characters. I mean it can't be that hard to make up classroom or gymnasium scenes with traditionalized versions of Liz, Sally, Ned, MJ, Harry, Gwen, etc. but also in the background are different ethnicities who have lines and play a part in Peter's life. I mean it's not like the Daily Bugle isn't culturally diverse. It's not like Peter's life in the comics wasn't culturally diverse or has gotten culturally diverse in the Ultimate books and modern comics."

 

[NinjaTurtleFan]

Agreed. Regarding the whole diversity thing, I think it should have gone down like this.

Have Ganke, Sally, Liz, (Latino ver), Flash, Cindy, Debra Whitman (black ver), etc in Peter's time in high school and save Gwen, MJ, Harry for college while introducing the diverse Bugle staff and the college ones while maybe keeping a few characters from high school that stick with audiences. Yay! You have a diverse cast throughout all films without putting characters into blenders!

 

[NinjaTurtleFan]

"Sure, Queens is culturally diverse so they wanted to reflect that landscape and that's fine, but could've still done it without changing some characters who are known throughout the Spider-Man universe ala having a mixture of original characters and Spiderverse characters. I mean it can't be that hard to make up classroom or gymnasium scenes with traditionalized versions of Liz, Sally, Ned, MJ, Harry, Gwen, etc. but also in the background are different ethnicities who have lines and play a part in Peter's life. I mean it's not like the Daily Bugle isn't culturally diverse. It's not like Peter's life in the comics wasn't culturally diverse or has gotten culturally diverse in the Ultimate books and modern comics."

And that says I want them as "props" how? Your racist, bigoted mind went there. Not mine, pal.

Smh.

 

[PeterBenParker]

Now that the supposed "twist" is out, I could almost see Marvel cutting the scene that reveals Zendaya is MJ.

Me too, which would suck.

Kinda like how the new TMNT cut Eric Sachs being Shredder due to outrage (though it would've worked much better for the film's narrative) and rushed in classic Shredder.

I fear we'd get something similar here.

 

[BAMFsnikt]

And that says I want them as "props" how? Your racist, bigoted mind went there. Not mine, pal.

Smh.

Riiiiiggghhht.

 

[X Knight]

Agreed. Regarding the whole diversity thing, I think it should have gone down like this.

Have Ganke, Sally, Liz, (Latino ver), Flash, Cindy, Debra Whitman (black ver), etc in Peter's time in high school and save Gwen, MJ, Harry for college while introducing the diverse Bugle staff and the college ones while maybe keeping a few characters from high school that stick with audiences. Yay! You have a diverse cast throughout all films without putting characters into blenders!

agreed.

I'd still include MJ in HS. but by not focusing on her in the first film, using Liz as the main LI for example, you could then save MJ for the big Tiger/Jackpot reveal at the end.

Have MJ be this "mystery" character that Peter always hears about from Aunt May but always seems to "just miss" in real life. He walks into the store, and he just catches a glimpse of red hair walking by. Do that several times throughout the film where they just miss each other.

then do the reveal at the end.

better than whatever plans they have now for "Michelle."

 

[marijuanawatson]

Was Keaton ever confirmed as The Vulture by Marvel or any credible source?

Because I have a feeling he's JJJ... The deep loud scratchy voice that he has...Perfect for JJJ.

I don't get Vulture vibes from him.