The Dark Knight Rises Theme of the Third movie

[Man Who Laughed]

I would freaking cry tears of joy if Riddler showed up. But, if they only made one more and used all the villains I want to see, we'd have Spider-Man 3 all over again. 6 hours of story, 2 hours of movie. So if no Riddler, I'm cool with that.

Someone needs to make Bats realize he's putting himself out of a job, and that one day he will no longer be able to save the city from itself. That he should quit while he's ahead. Leave Gotham to fend for itself.

 

[GenesisBeyond]

Time for Bruce to stop looking at BATMAN as being a Hobby or just a temporary chapter in his life until he sorts the criminal element out in Gotham. No, Let a aspect of the next film show his realization, and eventual acceptance that he is going to be Batman Forever(aw crap!) but you know what I mean.

I always recall a scene from the comics where Bruce was young and was standing infront of his parents grave and vowed to fight crime. Is that too ridiculous of a scene for the next film?

 

[Malone]

Time for Bruce to stop looking at BATMAN as being a Hobby or just a temporary chapter in his life until he sorts the criminal element out in Gotham. No, Let a aspect of the next film show his realization, and eventual acceptance that he is going to be Batman Forever(aw crap!) but you know what I mean.

I always recall a scene from the comics where Bruce was young and was standing infront of his parents grave and vowed to fight crime. Is that too ridiculous of a scene for the next film?

I don't think it would be a ridiculous scene, I just think that the first movie would have been the best time for something like that.

Knowing what we know now, having seen TDK and assuming Two-Face is dead, what would be a good theme for a third movie? Moreover, what villains would be powerful enough to represent those themes?

 

[regwec]

Exhibitionism, and the lack or morality and scruples that go with self-promotion. This can apply to the villains (and also explains their sudden appearance in a reality TV, tabloid era), to Catwoman (who is an exhibitionist both in public life as Selina Kyle and in a slightly fetishistic sense whilst in the costume), to Batman (whose appearence is suppsed to be impressive, but is a public pariah), to the GDCP's media-savvy war on the most high-profile of criminals.

 

[flickchick85]

The 3rd film should center around Batman's continuing efforts to rid the city of crime (obviously), but also show that he has learned that he can't fight this war on his own.

Show the Batman fail at one point in the film and rise up from his mistakes to redeem himself and become the savior that he originally set out to become.

Without Rachel or Harvey Dent by his side anymore (his relationship with Gordon may even be tarnished with the events of TDK), Bruce Wayne is truly alone and realizes that he is on a downward spiral. This gives him the impetus to accept the unconventional help of the Catwoman and reinvigorate his friendship with Gordon.

So, to sum it all up, the theme: REDEMPTION and ACCEPTANCE.

I totally agree with this. As I said in the other thread that got closed, I'd really like the end of this movie to represent the "dawn" that Harvey predicted would come to pass in TDK. And redemption is what will lead to that: Batman will be redeemed in the eyes of Gotham, Gotham should be redeemed in the eyes of the audience, and if they have Catwoman, she can be redeemed in Bruce's eyes by the end (perhaps by going to prison and paying for her crimes even after she helps Batman fight the other baddie).

But I agree that before all of this happens, Batman should be in a real downward spiral when the movie first picks up. He no longer has Gordon as an ally (even if Gordon wants to be), so its him against the world. And the person that is Bruce Wayne may be getting completely lost in his Batman persona, obsessed with paying his penance for all those he feels he let down. Catwoman can help him come out of this, make him realize that this is not a punishment but something he chooses to do and should take pride (and in her case, joy) in it. And indeed, when the people of Gotham really need him after a monster THEY created gets out of hand (Riddler? Penguin?), he becomes the "hero they need" again.

 

[IronBat]

ok iv'e been tossing this idea around my head for a while so bear with me. i think it's pretty good. first is kinda idea for trailer than maybe just idea for plot.


maybe the trailer opens with darkness and you hear gordan say(to batman)

gordan:for all the people you inspired HE inspired just as many.
batman:We can stop them.
*cut to scene of maybe five different "costumed" people robbing bank, setting bombs etc.

Gather Round!! Gather Round!!
*cut to scene of a throng of "costumed" villians
circiling around a central circle. In the middle dressed in a sharp green suit, bowler, small mask and cane is the "riddler"

Riddler:MOST of you aren't very good. He would take you down without breaking a sweat. BUT luckily!!.....youv'e got me.

#cut's to scene of various robberys muggings by these people.

voice of riddler: Follow my expert plans and we will have the Bat eating out of our hands!!

*cut to scene show some extravagant cars crashing bomb's blowing up etc. when viewed from above it's a riddle.


*cut to scenes of batman fighting various *villians* eventually he has riddler by the jacket and is hoisting him above the city streets

Batman: WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS!!!!
Riddler: (calmly with a smirk) Because he told me too........
#fade out



allright for overall plot i was thinking all of the city's WACKOS and such inspired by the joker band together under the riddler really the only one of them with any promise as a villian. most are just normal crimanals in "suits."
He leads them around expertly striking with them almost like a general leaving clues behind intended to realy just confuse batman more than anything. demonstrates always being one step ahead of batman. eventually batman relizes he needs to outoutthink the riddler. does so catches him. movie really ends with most of criminals behind bars no real leader. batman shows up in darkened cell out of shadows has a confritation with the JOKER!! who has really been pulling the strings most of the time of the riddler until the riddler got obbsesed with leaving riddles. most of the joker would be done with imitators and digital effects to get as close as possible to the one in Dark Knight. Batman says stay out of my city blah blah blah joker says something like i don't even have to be in your city anymore, youv'e got more wackos then you know what to do with ha ha ha


i don't know just something iv'e come up with think it would be cool. what do you guys think???

 

[zmystico]

I love the redemption idea, although he's actually only being redeemed in the eyes of Gotham City, since Bruce, Gordon & his son, the Joker and Two-face know that Batman is totally innocent. I think at the end of TDK he truly felt he was ready to endure and "be what Gotham needs him to be", so I don't want to see him doubting himself on whether he's doing good or making a difference, but I want to see it takes its toll on him. I want Batman to be tired...physically as well as mentally, I want to see him wanting to keep going on, but his body not being able to keep going. I don't mean any kind of serious injury or anything like that, but the fatigue and exhaustion. I've said I wouldn't want to see another love interest, but it could work if introducing another love interest wouldn't result in Bruce trying to choose between love and duty, but rather making both love and duty work. I'd like to see Bruce mentally strong enough to deal with being the outcast, although I truly feel all of Gotham will think of him as a killer.

 

[Nepenthes]

metalhead_dave were you here under a different account before?

 

[metalhead_dave]

metalhead_dave were you here under a different account before?

No, this has been my only account.

 

[Melkay]

I think you're all wrong and Nolan is wrong. He's severely limiting the scope of the trilogy and his options in the 3rdfilm by categorically denying the inclusion of Robin. Especially because TDK already deals with "Robin" in a very big way.

We know Batman has started something he cannot end; a legion of freaks will rise up to meet his challenge. Being a smart and determined man Bruce would naturally realise that his next phase in the mission should be RECRUITMENT. It's an ideological battle now. The 3rd film should be about moving beyond *one* man and creating a legacy that will serve gotham for decades to come. As the film opens Bruce has been activily scouting for allies...and in a stroke of cruel fate, a circus boy in the 'Wayne Special Scolarship Program" loses his parents at a tender age. This is the kind of tragedy that could turn a boy into another Two-Face or Joker. Furthermore, this orphan is violent, trained and naturally gifted; the fates have aligned! He'll be the first 'test' of Batmans next phase. The catch? He's also a friggin carny.

Another challenge is represented by Catwoman; will she be another dillemma for Batman or is she in fact a blessing in disguise? End the film with Dick Grayson in his shiney new costume standing beside Batman and joined by Catwoman and Jim Gordon, as they survey a city none of them would have recognised only a few years before.

The batman-vigilantes in TDK set the stage perfectly for this theme for in movie three. Basically, the theme is 'the future'.

While I think that you're right about Batman not being the only one who can do this, I strongly oppose the idea of bringing Robin into this franchise. Strongly. And I don't think Nolan's wrong here, but you. You seem to miss much of the points that he has established in his two-previous films.

It's a bit simplistic to think that to fight a multiplying population of freaks you need a multiplying population of vigilantes. That's wrong. In BB, Bruce didn't create Batman to be a guy that kicks criminal a**es. He wanted to became a symbol, a symbol of renewal for the people of his city. He tried to follow the steps of his parents, because the Waynes were philantropists who inspired people to help the city beyond their own personal interests... but Bruce thought that being a responsable, generous and unpstanding philantropist is not enough to keep crime on check. He didin't become the symbol his parents were... no, he was to bent on revenge to get that.

Now, in TDK, we got the reason of why Robin would destroy such a symbol... the batman copy-cats. They do not understand what his symbol means and they don't have his extensive physical and psychological training. They didn't have Ducard. Bruce may have trained for years. He won't have that time to adoctrinate Robin on that time ina movie, and Robin has no time to get to the point where Batman is... and the last thing Batman needs is to add another obstacle to hs crusade... to be responsible for Robin and his mistakes and his inssufficiencies.

To be a positive symbol, Batman can't be a catalyst for a legion of vigilantes under his command. Maybe in Miller's DKR, but not in Nolan's world. In Nolan's wolrd that would be fascism. He is there to inspire the people of Gotham to resist the temptations of corruption and to cooperate with each other... to be good. But Batman cannot be this... he is whatever Gotham needs him to be, but not a symbol of good and hope... at least, not a pure one. Not the one that HARVEY DENT was. ANd he need to complete himself as an inspiration. He needs to be more like Harvey. He nees to be trusted. And he may not be able to do that.

Enter the Redemption theme... enter a catalyst for Batman to comprehend this... enter Catwoman. My idea of Catwoman is of someone who is trying to be a symbol too... but where Batman sees the vast criminal network as the main problem, she sees POVERTY and MISERY as the main problem. She has seen her loved ones turn into criminals to escape misery, and she has seen very rich people treated like they deserved it. So, Catwoman steals from rich people... and Selina Kyle donates part of the money in the numerous charities she's involved in.

That's the symbol that neither Batman nor Bruce has become. The symbol of a philantropist... the symbol of a giver, an inspiration of good, and not of "fighting against evil". Selina sees this, but she's doing the wrong things for the right reasons. She's still a thief, a criminal... she's a complex character. And another poster came with this idea: when she goes to prison, she's afraid that her charities will dissapear... but then, someone she directly inspired, takes her place... Bruce Wayne.

The headlines would be: "The New Bruce Wayne? A philantropist?" and that the evolution as a character that Bruce is missing. He's a playboy, he's a cover-up, bu he's failing to be the example his parents were... and not because he lacks the means.
So I propose the next theme should be the exploration of three main topics:
1. What it takes to be an outcast and how to do the wrong things for the right reasons makes you a solitary, separated from society (Batman, Catwoman an maybe Freeze are all outcasts... they should know).
2. Economic contrasts... not good versus evil, but fortunate and unfortunate ones and how those who are on the top should be inspirations to HELP others, through philantropy and generosity... something quite similar to the theme of Wall·E (or the HOPE that Dent represented).
3. How redemption can be found by be willing to be an outcast and stil help others, not be straying away from your original principals but by respecting them nad honoring them... Bruce should find inspiration in the symbol that his parents were and in his public persona he should be a philantropist, like they were.

He should help Gotham by every means he has... to inspire All The People Of Gotham... not just a bunch of brave kids who are really good at fightin (but who will never be as precise and good as he is). He must fight temptation of growing resented against the society that despises him and yet he defends... like Catwoman, who saw so much misery that now DESPISES the SYSTEM, and never really believes in justice. He must be the symbol that his city needs. He must be bigger than just a vigilante trainer...


and Robin fits nowhere in that picture. Batman is a loner, and Robin was (and IS) a mistake in the comics. And I praise Nolan for not being 'wrong' on this subject.
See ya...

 

[elgato]

Omg I ****ing Love Your Ideas!!!

 

[regwec]

ok iv'e been tossing this idea around my head for a while so bear with me. i think it's pretty good. first is kinda idea for trailer than maybe just idea for plot.


maybe the trailer opens with darkness and you hear gordan say(to batman)

gordan:for all the people you inspired HE inspired just as many.
batman:We can stop them.
*cut to scene of maybe five different "costumed" people robbing bank, setting bombs etc.

Gather Round!! Gather Round!!
*cut to scene of a throng of "costumed" villians
circiling around a central circle. In the middle dressed in a sharp green suit, bowler, small mask and cane is the "riddler"

Riddler:MOST of you aren't very good. He would take you down without breaking a sweat. BUT luckily!!.....youv'e got me.

#cut's to scene of various robberys muggings by these people.

voice of riddler: Follow my expert plans and we will have the Bat eating out of our hands!!

*cut to scene show some extravagant cars crashing bomb's blowing up etc. when viewed from above it's a riddle.


*cut to scenes of batman fighting various *villians* eventually he has riddler by the jacket and is hoisting him above the city streets

Batman: WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS!!!!
Riddler: (calmly with a smirk) Because he told me too........
#fade out

I really like that, up to The Riddler's last line. I agree that it is a sound idea to have other fruit-cakes influenced by The Joker, but I don't think that it would really be in most of their natures to acknowledge their creative debt.

 

[Majjic Mouse]

Just found this (a bit old now but I've not come across it anywhere else)

http://www.slashfilm.com/2008/08/02/the-truth-about-those-dark-knight-sequel-casting-rumors/

Pleased to see Jonathan Nolan's working on T4 (another of my favourites!)

 

[Carmine Falcone]

I really like that, up to The Riddler's last line. I agree that it is a sound idea to have other fruit-cakes influenced by The Joker, but I don't think that it would really be in most of their natures to acknowledge their creative debt.

It would match with TDK really well. Batman inspires ''good'' or atleast vigilantism, and The Joker has been broadcast widely aswell. Ofcourse there are gonna be, not copycats, but.....inspired criminals.

(Cameo's galore!)

 

[metalhead_dave]

While I think that you're right about Batman not being the only one who can do this, I strongly oppose the idea of bringing Robin into this franchise. Strongly. And I don't think Nolan's wrong here, but you. You seem to miss much of the points that he has established in his two-previous films.

It's a bit simplistic to think that to fight a multiplying population of freaks you need a multiplying population of vigilantes. That's wrong. In BB, Bruce didn't create Batman to be a guy that kicks criminal a**es. He wanted to became a symbol, a symbol of renewal for the people of his city. He tried to follow the steps of his parents, because the Waynes were philantropists who inspired people to help the city beyond their own personal interests... but Bruce thought that being a responsable, generous and unpstanding philantropist is not enough to keep crime on check. He didin't become the symbol his parents were... no, he was to bent on revenge to get that.

Now, in TDK, we got the reason of why Robin would destroy such a symbol... the batman copy-cats. They do not understand what his symbol means and they don't have his extensive physical and psychological training. They didn't have Ducard. Bruce may have trained for years. He won't have that time to adoctrinate Robin on that time ina movie, and Robin has no time to get to the point where Batman is... and the last thing Batman needs is to add another obstacle to hs crusade... to be responsible for Robin and his mistakes and his inssufficiencies.

To be a positive symbol, Batman can't be a catalyst for a legion of vigilantes under his command. Maybe in Miller's DKR, but not in Nolan's world. In Nolan's wolrd that would be fascism. He is there to inspire the people of Gotham to resist the temptations of corruption and to cooperate with each other... to be good. But Batman cannot be this... he is whatever Gotham needs him to be, but not a symbol of good and hope... at least, not a pure one. Not the one that HARVEY DENT was. ANd he need to complete himself as an inspiration. He needs to be more like Harvey. He nees to be trusted. And he may not be able to do that.

Enter the Redemption theme... enter a catalyst for Batman to comprehend this... enter Catwoman. My idea of Catwoman is of someone who is trying to be a symbol too... but where Batman sees the vast criminal network as the main problem, she sees POVERTY and MISERY as the main problem. She has seen her loved ones turn into criminals to escape misery, and she has seen very rich people treated like they deserved it. So, Catwoman steals from rich people... and Selina Kyle donates part of the money in the numerous charities she's involved in.

That's the symbol that neither Batman nor Bruce has become. The symbol of a philantropist... the symbol of a giver, an inspiration of good, and not of "fighting against evil". Selina sees this, but she's doing the wrong things for the right reasons. She's still a thief, a criminal... she's a complex character. And another poster came with this idea: when she goes to prison, she's afraid that her charities will dissapear... but then, someone she directly inspired, takes her place... Bruce Wayne.

The headlines would be: "The New Bruce Wayne? A philantropist?" and that the evolution as a character that Bruce is missing. He's a playboy, he's a cover-up, bu he's failing to be the example his parents were... and not because he lacks the means.
So I propose the next theme should be the exploration of three main topics:
1. What it takes to be an outcast and how to do the wrong things for the right reasons makes you a solitary, separated from society (Batman, Catwoman an maybe Freeze are all outcasts... they should know).
2. Economic contrasts... not good versus evil, but fortunate and unfortunate ones and how those who are on the top should be inspirations to HELP others, through philantropy and generosity... something quite similar to the theme of Wall·E (or the HOPE that Dent represented).
3. How redemption can be found by be willing to be an outcast and stil help others, not be straying away from your original principals but by respecting them nad honoring them... Bruce should find inspiration in the symbol that his parents were and in his public persona he should be a philantropist, like they were.

He should help Gotham by every means he has... to inspire All The People Of Gotham... not just a bunch of brave kids who are really good at fightin (but who will never be as precise and good as he is). He must fight temptation of growing resented against the society that despises him and yet he defends... like Catwoman, who saw so much misery that now DESPISES the SYSTEM, and never really believes in justice. He must be the symbol that his city needs. He must be bigger than just a vigilante trainer...

My god, are you Chris Nolan in disguise? If so, can I have your autograph? And can I have a part in the next Batman film? Nothing big, just a small part. Maybe a gangmember who gets his ass handed to him by Batman?

Your ideas about where the franchise could go make great sense. Your idea about how the costume should be is AWESOME. All we need from you is some good scenes and a villain that we can root for Batman to kick the **** out of and there's the third Batman movie.

Oh yeah, and a title would be good too.

 

[the_batman4ever]

Here is how I see the third movie panning out:

With the ending of The Dark Knight, I think we will see that Gotham has turned against the caped crusader (with the public knowing that Batman was responsible for so many Death's in TDK, as well as Harvey's) Batman is now the Villain in the 3rd movie. Here I think we will see that many months have passed since TDK and Batman has been in hiding. We will see more of Bruce Wayne possibly a side of him we have not seen. With Wayne manner rebuilt, Bruce tries to focus more on his personal life and Wayne Enterprises but knowing that deep down inside there is always the will to do what he is meant to do... rid Gotham of crime. We will see Gotham in it's darkest hour...crime out of control and citizens have lost all hope. but more importantly I think Bruce will have lost hope in himself (hence the redemption theme). He will try to live a normal life and bury his alter ego deep inside himself. But with the emergence of a new villain, one bent on causing chaos through games and riddles. With batman still missing, the riddler has made things difficult for police trying to solve the bizarre crimes and the riddles left at the scenes. The riddler will call out Batman and force him to emerge once again with what most likely will be the kidnapping of someone important possibly the Mayor and or Gordon or quite possibly the city itself. Unlike the Joker the riddler isn't causing chaos for chaos' sake, but instead wants to solve the biggest riddle of all... who is Batman. This will lead to the caped crusader's return. Here we will finally see the police anxiously glad to see the Dark Knight returning and eagerly awaiting his assistance in solving these crimes. With Batman's detective skills on full-display this time, he will eventually uncover the riddler's plan. Unfortunately it will be a plan where Batman will have no choice but to reveal his identity to not only the Riddler himself but Gotham city as well. We will see batman defeat the riddler but ultimately he will sacrifice his identity to do it. This will lead to Gotham City's embrace of the caped crusader and understanding of what he is and what he stands for and how he has sacrificed himself for Gotham City. With all the criminals now locked up in Arkham... the city can now focus on rebuilding itself to the city it once was.

Again this is my synopsis, understanding that there could be some small cameo's or maybe even a partnership with Catwoman but would definitely focus on one villain and the duality within Batman/Bruce Wayne. Riddler is a good villain to focus on because the methods of catching him would fill a two hour time-slot being that he uses very difficult riddles that lead to other ones.

Possible titles:
Batman Redemption
The Dark Knight Returns
Rise of the Bat(man)

 

[Mercurius]

No redemption and no Robin.

Arkham Asylum and chaos.

Bats is a shadow and has to face the ultimate dilemma: does he belong together with his foes?

Title: Arkham Asylum.

 

[regwec]

That would have to be the climax of the movie, rather than its whole structure, however.

 

[TimidationGame]

I thought about this a very little bit and came up with a few things. I am not sold on the idea that Batmans redemption is the way to go as the main theme for part3. It serves his interest to not be redeemed so as to not inspire innocents into the fray.

I think trying to top escalation is trouble waiting to happen since it was done so well.

Since Bruce will be on the lamb a little, I thing replication may work well to bring in others on all sides of the story. Catwoman can replicate Batman and fill the void on her turf. Nightwing/Robin could find inspiration of Batmans deeds and start his path to joining Batman. Both of them could serve as great story telling pieces to show how Bruce is growing in his role and that he has to be gaurdian/protector or others will do it to their peril. The rogues gallery could find inspiration by any of the anti-heroes/villians and try to replicate. The main story for the them could also be someone has been pulling strings already in the last two parts.

I'm sure there is a more glamorous idea out there, but that is what I came up with. By the way, I do not mean that TDK should be replicated.

 

[Mercurius]

Man, I can even accept a new version of the kitty, but that silly boy in attendance I hope never to see again in a Batman flick. I mean it.

 

[Cunning Stunts]

I think a good theme for the next film should be armageddon/rebuilding... With the destruction caused by The Joker leaving a paved path for anyone else who cares to pick up where he left off, this would be a perfect time for Freeze to start looting to find a cure for his wife/go on a freezing rampage, and for Bane to release criminals from Arkham and try to take down Batman.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Melkay]

My god, are you Chris Nolan in disguise? If so, can I have your autograph? And can I have a part in the next Batman film? Nothing big, just a small part. Maybe a gangmember who gets his ass handed to him by Batman?

Your ideas about where the franchise could go make great sense. Your idea about how the costume should be is AWESOME. All we need from you is some good scenes and a villain that we can root for Batman to kick the **** out of and there's the third Batman movie.

Oh yeah, and a title would be good too.

Oh, it's great you loved it. Nope, I'm not Chris Nolan. Neither Jonah Nolan.

But I have called Chris to discuss some ideas. However, his answer machine says: "Hi, I'm Chris Nolan, and I swear... if I get another call asking me to do a third Bat-film, I WILL make the most faithful remake of Batman & Robin ever... bat-nipples included. Please leave your message after the signal... *bip*."

But I do think that'd be the direction they would take. And I'm glad you also checked out the comments at the new suit thread. I have no idea about the title though, and I find a little too speculative to think about the title whithout having some idea about the plot. Plus, I don't like any title suggestion I've seen so far. Maybe "The Dark Knight" is impossible to top. Maybe not. But once you start reading "Batman: Redemption" or "Batman: Interrogation" or just "Gotham".... well, I think I've seen enough.

Best title so far? Probably "The Batman". Or just "Batman". Burton didn't use that title well enought.

And about the villains and the plot, since everyone is reposting their ideas, I'm gonna re-post mine soon. Tell me what you think, but please, be gentle; they're just raw concepts and too far from being Nolan's ideas (I hope).

 

[Melkay]

This is my case for who should be the next movie villains. It's rather extense but I wanted to put together all the ideas I like. To those who will bother to read them, please, any comment will be warmly received. Thank you...



THE PREAMBLE:

It’s a known thing to every bat-fan out there that the villains are meant to reflect aspects of the hero’s condition. They’re catalysts to his full-development. As ace_o_knaves puts it, this next film could (must) retrace the feelings of guilt that Bruce feels for his parents’ death. In Batman Begins, Ra's al Ghul helped Bruce vanquish those feelings, but after what has happened in TDK they’re likely to creep back in. Maybe we will finally get that iconic image of Bruce making a visit to his parents’ grave for enlightenment or for some forgiveness. And if the movie is done right, he should be with so much pressure and in such a weakened state that he must visit his parents’ grave. The loss of Rachel and Harvey could bring all those fears and feelings flooding back. Not the same feelings of Begins, but new ones, because now Bruce has the Batman persona to channel them and it’s still not doing any good. Completely apart from society, without Rachel to give him the hop of a normal life, he starts to lose himself into ‘that monster of his’, like Alfred said.

Bruce should relapse into his feelings of guilt driven pure rage. Being the most wanted man in Gotham can't help.


Nolan hasn't worked with just one villain yet, and I don't think the next movie would be an exception. So, which is the best group of villains to fully develop these new aspects of Bruce/Batman? Now he is in his darkest place yet and needs someone to project his current conflicts on...

These are my suggestions:

 

[Melkay]

THE RIDDLER:

The first thing to do with the Riddler is avoiding the inevitable comparisons with the Joker, and not just in the performances. The Joker never showed his origins, but he stands in a far superior level than any other villain.... because in the comics he has no origin. It's not the same with the Riddler.
In BB, Crane had his origin as the Scarecrow, and he is Really Creepy.
Ra's Al Ghul was a very powerful villain, and even he had an origin (or at least a portion of it: "once I had a wife, my great love, she was taken from me").
Two-Face had an origin, obviously, because that's the most important part of that character.

The Riddler can't be just “Riddler”. He needs a well explained transition. If he lacks this, he's not a character... he's a stereotype. Characters need progression and a development arc. They need origins. The Nolans removed any origin from the Joker and they succeeded, but they cannot do it all the time and get away with it.

Especially for one reason... obsession needs time to take in. The Riddler needs to take progressive steps towards obsession, towards insanity. Making the Riddler a mastermind with a plan from the beginning of the movie doesn't make him a well portrayed character, but a generic super-villain. That's not right.

When I join all the origin ideas I’ve read and liked, this is what I get:

He's a FBI agent, brilliant with computer technology, maybe a former code-breaker, who arrives with the ·Batman Task-Force· (leaded by the famous Ellen Yindel, from the comics). Since Batman is a vigilante, he stages fake crimes to lure him out and catch him, but Batman keeps eluding his traps. Then, Nygma he gets obsessed about catching him. First, he tries to ruin his reputation in front of the public opinion by framing him in some crime and exposing his relationship to an infamous cat-burglar . Then, behind Commissioner Gordon’s back he creates a criminal alter-ego called “The Riddler”, who commits real crimes and leaves clues to lure Batman into deathly traps traps. They get out of hand, presenting real harm not just to Batman, but to police officers as well.

When Nygma is discovered, he's smart enough to avoid being caught (I'll leave the how to you) and then gets completely obsessed with outsmarting Batman and catching and unmasking him, inside or outside the Law.
He cracks Wayne Enterprises along with other companies to get an impressive sum of money, and then hires many mob goons to make the ultimate crime/trap to catch the Batman and find out who he is... a question that, of course, has been torturing him since day one .

The motivation of the Riddler is essential... is the moment of win or lose for the character. The stronger and better the motivation, the more believable the character. Angry cops pursuing an innocent man until the edge of the world isn't foreign to good story-telling. Inspector Javert, from Les Misérables, is possibly the best example out there.

Let’s put Harvey Bullock in this idea and actually make him sympathetic towards the cause of agent Nygma. Maybe he can even help Nygma behind Gordon's back. Bullock is not a bad character at all and can be crucial on giving Nygma some breach or leverage inside the Police Force, after Gordon opposes him and his methods.


Bullock is the cop that hates and distrusts the Batman and puts everything forward to chase him. That cop is there for a reason, to extrapolate to all the cops that also distrust Batman. Montoya, on the other hand, can be presented for the opposite reason. To show cops inside the GPD that actually want to help those meddling Feds that came along with Nygma (Ellen Yindel and his 'Batman Task Force') is telling a lot about the human beings that are under Gordon's command.

So there we flesh out both the Riddler and the Police Force.

All the Riddler ideas I like, into one.



Ideas that I don’t like:
- He can't be so much about crashing online systems. Crashing networks doesn't really work for a summer action movie, unless the result of those crashes are quite visible in the city... but that has already been done, recently... last year in Live Free Or Die Hard. The last Nolan Bat-movie can’t be a Die Hard rip-off.
- He can’t be a Zodiac pastiche. That is completely wrong. He doesn’t kill people and he doesn’t come out of the blue, like the Joker did. He is not a serial killer. And he must not be so similar to the Joker in TDK, because that type role won’t be topped ever by the Riddler. Like I said, he needs his origin.


Besides, it fits perfectly into the end of TDK. Nygma could be a federal agent pursuing Batman that would drive him away even more from society and his relationship with Gordon. That's why I find the agent idea so compelling and so true to the character. The Riddler is a guy obsessed with winning, and he's so narcissistic that he thinks he can go beyond the law because he represents Justice, and Justice always must catch the criminal, whatever it takes. Especially one as interesting as the Batman.

He wants to defeat Batman at all costs. That's him. Intellectual obsession... that's the Riddler. That's Edward Nygma. An example of how we can be dragged by vanity to achieve a victory (not unlike we fighting for a supposed victory in Iraq), and of how or obsessed desires to KNOW can make worse persons of us.

Nolan explored that theme excellently in The Prestige. He can do it even better this time.

Now that Batman is running away from the cops, the Riddler can put a lot of pressure on him. So far, Batman has experienced the consequences of his acts upon others... now he needs to suffer the consequences of his acts upon himself, and the Riddler can put the most pressure on him by trying to catch him with traps that really put Bruce's (and other people’s) life in jeopardy.


While I'm not a fan of seeing Edward Nashton walking around in a green suit and a bowler hat, I am perfectly confortable with seeing both things in a proper context. Nolan has been known for doing these kind of transitions very subtle. I have an idea for dealing with this...

There's a very famous painting by Magritte called The Son Of Man. It shows a man with a face hidden by a fruit. This is the painting:

Now, imagine that man with a green suit and green bowler hat, and a green question mark covering his face instead of the fruit.

Magritte said of this painting:

At least it hides the face partly. Well, so you have the apparent face, the apple, hiding the visible but hidden, the face of the person. It's something that happens constantly. Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see. There is an interest in that which is hidden and which the visible does not show us. This interest can take the form of a quite intense feeling, a sort of conflict, one might say, between the visible that is hidden and the visible that is present.

Now, imagine Edward Nashton being a fan of the painting, and eventually using it to send tell his riddles to Batman and the Police. A computer message, encripted in a way that makes it untraceable. And while the riddle and the clues are told, that painting is seen on a computer monitor.

As I said, the same painting, but with a green suit and a big green question mark covering his face.

That's cool for me. If from then on he gets obsessed with his new alter ego and likes to dress with a green suit and bowling hat, fine by me. But I want to see that transition.

Magritte's ideas about what is image and what is real, and about the questions raised by that duplicity must be something Nolan can really connect to. This is a quote from Wikipedia:

"My painting is visible images which conceal nothing; they evoke mystery and, indeed, when one sees one of my pictures, one asks oneself this simple question, "What does that mean?". It does not mean anything, because mystery means nothing either, it is unknowable."
- René Magritte

Suddenly, the Riddler can be much more interesting to me.

Plot-wise, The Riddler can be used in a multitude of ways. Maybe Nygma, in his desperation, tries to get inside the Batman's mind by going to the only psychiatrist that has been in contact with him... former doctor Jonhathan Crane, even making some kind of deal with him to make him cooperate, against all advices from Commissioner Gordon.
Maybe he finds help from policemen that, despite being loyal to Gordon, have a very deep distrust of the Batman. These cops are embodied in the comics in the figure of detective Harvey Bullock.

What about Bats almost always being a step ahead of Nygma, until Nygma becomes a criminal and then Bats needs to stop him but doesn’t know how?
A lil’ bit of both alternatives. A truly dynamic cat-and-mouse chase. I say this because The Riddlers biggest frustration is that Batman outsmarts him lots of times. This frustration is essential for the character and must be shown.


Who could play the Riddler? Well, basically anybody. And I mean anybody. Nygma’s physical qualities are so generic that there are dozens of great actor apt to play him. Actors that range from Johnny Depp to Christopher (check his small part in “Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas”. It’s good.) Take a random movie like Flight of the Phoenix and you have three perfectly good choices for the Riddler: Dennis Quaid, Hugh Laurie and Giovanni Ribsi. See The Green Mile and you get three more.
All of them are incredibly good actors who could pull off very different yet faithful Riddlers.

So no, I don’t have any idea for casting this guy.

The Riddler as a fed can be a great way to give screen time to Gordon and the police officers.

 

[Melkay]

CATWOMAN:

Like ace_o_knaves said: “being the most wanted man by the police can't help”. And there enters... Catwoman.
I for one would feel really lurrrred into the Dark Side.

I’ve heard of some alleged Nolan interview when he says he is not planning on using Catwoman, and maybe doesn’t even like her to be in the new franchise. If that was true then I'm very sorry to hear about it, since she is one of the best characters remaining among those that don't contradict Nolan's plausability norm.

Still, for many people, Catwoman is quite obvious inclusion for the next movie. With Rachel out of the picture there is a vacant spot for a love story, and Batman now is completely isolated from the police... to have him have a LOVE-hate relationship with a criminal (someone who doesn't kill, and just breaks the law without harming people) would create a very nice conflict.
She, like Batman, is a rogue character, and they're both pursued by the cops, even if they're not villains... she's a criminal, he's a vigilante, and that is ideal for a tense love-hate relationship.

Besides, a love relationship shouldn’t be a repetition of the dynamics between he and Rachel. Replaceable characters like Vicky Vale shouldn’t be used. Batman and Catwoman’s relationship is the perfect contrast to his ‘relationship’ with Rachel: Rachel was his anchor towards the Bruce persona… she was pulling him to a stable life, a life without a mask. Catwoman would be luring him to a life they both share, where nothing is stable, and there's always a mask. If he’s in loved with someone who has a life so similar to his, then he has no “hope for a normal life”. Catwoman is the catalyst for the perpetuation of the Batman persona.

Some people talk about the possibility of Catwoman being a vigilante, not unlike Batman. I say that Catwoman can't be vigilante. She's a criminal. She has always been. She embraces breaking the Law and that's what's attractive with her. And a mirror of a vigilante is not another vigilante. Batman fights for the Law and society outside society and outside the Law. Catwoman also works on her own, she doesn't belong to the mob or anything... but she breaks it. She has no respect for it and she finds it oppressive. Bruce and Selina come from very different backgrounds, and their points of view are very different. That's being a mirror.

Besides, you can't have Catwoman as a vigilante because that's a blow to Nolan's realism. Batman can do what he doesn’t because of his wealth and his strength. She's not as strong as he is, she hasn't learned so many fighting styles, she doesn't have all his gadgets... she's not prepared to be a vigilante. She's agile and elusive and being a woman allows her to go under the radar... she's prepared to be a cat-burglar.

Oh, and she should have a past training in gymnastics. For obvious reasons

People are wondering what fighting style she should have. I say we should figure out what ‘escaping style’ she should have. Fighting demands a great deal of physical strength. And yeah, she can fight, but mostly... she should run. Run, and get away, and be impossible to catch... that way she can be a challenge even for the Batman. And she must be a challenge for him, in every sense.

What I find interesting about her is that she has the possibility of talking with Batman and yet appealing to Bruce Wayne. She can crack the emotional barrier given by his mask, his voice, his whole alter ego. And those are the moments when whe wee a fallible human being under that mask (just like when he beated the hell out of the Joker as soon as he mentioned Rachel). The moments I enjoy Catwoman the most is when she makes Batman doubt about what he really wants. They both should have leading roles, but she should still be a criminal… an outcast like he is, only that she doesn’t respect the Law at all. She finds delight in breaking the Law, and actually believe that she does is the right thing. The movie can greatly benefit from an ambiguous characters like her. She steals from the rich to stress the economic and social differences. That's her code.

And the effects she provokes in Batman cannot be done by any other character. After adding the Joker, I think the only way to completely depict the basics of the Bat-world is to add Catwoman. Without the ambiguity of Catwoman, I don’t think the Bat-verse will be complete.

Or maybe agent Nygma tries to catch/frame Batman through his connection to a well-known criminal called “the Catwoman”.

But for me this is the real deal-breaker…

I find Nolan’s way of playing with the notions of Right&Wrong very appealing. So, I'm all the way for subverting things like Law And Order and Crime World. See, Edward Nygma would be a Federal Agent, a law enforcer, and yet he's driven by petty obsessions and his actions would raise no empathy at all from the audience. He's designed to push away Batman further from the Law.

Catwoman is the counter-proposition. She's a woman who’s interesting and attractive and, deep inside, holds an Ideal... Maybe she has a past related to poverty and misery and now she's still in touch with the less fortunate citizens of Gotham. Maybe through charity, maybe through friends she's trying to help with no so conventional means. She would be an empathetic character, BUT still a criminal. She would pull Batman further into the world of being a rogue character… of being an outcast. That's her function.

Plus, giving Selina an unfortunate background (poverty, or maybe some kind of personal tragedy, not as great as Bruce's, of course) could give her a very nice subtext. She's a thief, after all, so she doesn't deal with people's lives and their psychology (like the Joker, or the Scarecrow).
What she deals with is people's possessions. She steals stuff, for her and maybe for others. To give her some kind of connection with Gotham’s less fortunate (maybe old friends; maybe a younger sister who was adopted when they were both orphans; maybe she's involved in some kind of charity system) would provide her character some great contrast. And her intentions need to be rendered good, so the audience can empathize more with her.

I think the Economic issues would be a nice sub-theme for the next movie, just like Terrorism and Counter-terrorism worked as a great subtext in TDK. In the sequel, Batman is a complete outcast, and Selina, being a criminal who steals mostly from rich people and institutions, is obviously an outcast too. They both break the Law. They both see themselves as some kind of harmonizer for the city. And they will be both attracted to each other. Imagine the public's reaction when they see Batman having a soft hand with that infamous cat burglar. His image would further deteriorate (that's one of the reasons I believe that Bullock should be in the next movie, to portray better those feelings of distrust towards the Batman).

So, yeah, I’d like a Selina that has some kind of ties to the poor people of Gotham (they are outcasts, in their own way). As I said, she can show Bruce the holes of that Batman persona he has made for himself. How he isn’t helping all the people he can. And she can inspire him to handle his public persona in a more productive way. After meeting Selina and her charities, Bruce may want to follow his father steps and be more of a Philanthropist. A good headline: “The New Bruce Wayne: A Philanthropist?” Well, he should be. His parents were that for Gotham and he needs to reinvigorate that sense of pride. He needs to accept himself once again.


Plus, imagine the repercussions of such themes when economic concerns growing larger in America and the world. I would really want to see the Nolan's take in that.


I don’t like making casting suggestions, but with Catwoman that is almost obligatory. A lot of what one would expect from Catwoman comes from physical qualities and body language. That’s why her options are narrowed. In the NEW Catwoman Casting Thread are many fan-favorites. My favorite two are Michelle Monaghan (because of her looks, her sexiness and her lack of an identified ‘star’ identity, which can make her a great surprise) and Marion Cotillard (because of the looks and the impressive acting chops… Nolan deserves the best actor he can get).

The second one needs to improve her American accent, but seen what she has done, well, maybe she can do it.



Catwoman can be a great way to devote more screen time to Alfred. He surely must have some insight on his master’s new “relationship”.


EDIT:

10/03
Catwoman is a master thief, and there are many important things that can be can stolen...

What about stealing important technological creations from Lucius Fox?
What about acceding to Wayne Enterprises's secret and now destroyed bat-sonar?
What about deviating billions of dollars from Gotham's major companies? Did you see the viral marketing for TDK? In Gotham Tonight, they stressed once how W.E., if collapsed, would bring down Gotham's economical foundations. And in the light of today's events, we know that is not so wacko after all.

Information, weapons, technology, funds... I can see Catwoman stealing that. And if things like those go to the hands of the film's main threat, things can get ugly.