There will be no peace in the Wrestling Thread until there is justice! - Part 88

[Metallo]

Originally Posted by Antman
A wrestling legend is measured by the respect he gets from wrestling fans and peers as well as big moments and accomplishments. You look at Punks body of work and he definitely has a case. Curt Hennig, Rick Rude, Jake Roberst and countless others are considered legends despite being midcard/upper midcard Jericho is a main event jobber of sorts yet he's still a legend. He's been booked just as badly as Punk during his career.

As far as Punks peers and elders he has the respect of many of them. Some of them true legends and icons in their own right. Thats a huge sign of how talented Punk is. He will be looked at as a great star down the road. I think the point that he could be seen as even better if he had the right support is a fair one though.

He'd be creating far more epic moments if he had guys like Roberts, Piper, Hennig, Savage, Michaels, Flair, Hogan, Austin, Bret Hart, Steamboat, Terry Funk, etc. in their primes to work with.

WWE isn't really trying to bring in or properly cultivate talent like that. Even Punk only made it because he forced their hand. Not because they gave him a fair chance. Thats pretty pathetic. It didn't used to be like that in the WWF/WWE. Not that badly anyway.

Originally Posted by the_ultimate_evil
i know its the whole crux of armchair booking but the fact that the majority of people can see that wwe is misisng a superb product by just a few simple mistakes is astounding.

just simple heel/face turns, pair people together to build the tag titles and work on building a certain level of midcarders.

You're right. I don't think any of us are saying we could be great bookers. But everyone here has seen enough GOOD pro wrestling material and bad material to recognize it when we see it. We've all had history as a great teacher so if you watch long enough you begin to pick up a few things and can recognize the trends. Anyone can.

I think sometimes you have to step out and away from something to be objective. When you are in it for too long its hard to be critical of yourself or your work. You might also need an outsiders fresh set of eyes to step back and get a full look at things. McMahon has been in the middle of it all for so long thast he's lost his objectivity and has creative tunnel vision. And most of his yes men are too afraid of losing their jobs or being punished to tell him when there might be a problem. There is no fine tuned creative quality guage at the top in WWE anymore.

 

[Pink Ranger]

I'm watching last night's main event again right now, and I keep thinking I would have loved to be a fly on the wall when Cena and Punk were planning their match backstage. I bet they were agreeing that they were each going to do something that would make jaws drop that night.

Not sure if they are friends in real life, but there has to be a lot of mutual professional respect there for that to have happened.

 

[Wheels]

I'm watching last night's main event again right now, and I keep thinking I would have loved to be a fly on the wall when Cena and Punk were planning their match backstage. I bet they were agreeing that they were each going to do something that would make jaws drop that night.

Not sure if they are friends in real life, but there has to be a lot of mutual professional respect there for that to have happened.

Well judging by Punk's comments on Colt Cabana's podcast I'd say that there's a friendship there.

 

[The Sage]

Looking at the match again, I think along with building Cena up that it did the job rebuilding Punk for is bout with Taker. Kicking out of the AA, the powerbomb, and the legdrop. Even using the piledriver could be seen as foreshadowing since Taker's finish is the Tombstone.

 

[ImWithTeamConan]

I've come to terms with Punk vs. Taker at Wrestlemania, it doesn't interest me but it at least puts Punk in rare company. If this is Taker's last or second to last Wrestlemania (as I think he'll retire after XXX), then the opponents leading up to this look incredible: HBK, HHH, CM Punk (and I think John Cena next year).

But there's no way Punk beats Undertaker, and I would actually make the argument that in this case he doesn't need to. It's all about what happens after the match.

Punk can take the loss, as long as Taker puts him over in any number of ways.

But they gotta mix this all up somehow. That match last night felt like the END of this era. After Rock/Cena 2 at WM, I feel like that story (three years running) will have run it's course, we're going to need something new.

 

[LOBO3315a]

- Vince McMahon reportedly "blew a gasket" backstage at RAW last night during the CM Punk vs. John Cena main event. Word is that Vince got upset when Punk hit Cena with a piledriver, which is a banned move when done the way Punk did it. Vince was upset with Cena and Punk but because it was them, there will likely be no serious punishment.

Source. F4WOnline

He blew a gasket because it was a great move that made the match, and he didn't think of it.

 

[Wheels]

No he blew a gasket because Punk landed on his ass. If Punk and Cena hadn't executed the piledriver as wel asl they did, Vince's golden boy might not have made it to Rematchamania.

 

[Pink Ranger]

No he blew a gasket because Punk landed on his ass. If Punk and Cena hadn't executed the piledriver as well they did, Vince's golden boy might not have made it to Rematchamania.

Yeah, it was the same type of piledriver that broke Austin's neck. He was never the same after that.

 

[Van Petrol]

Don't know if this has been posted...


Zeb Colter and Jack Swagger address Glenn Beck - uncut -

 

[Dr. Evil]

Vince blowing a gasket = not news.

Vince calm and collected = huge news.

 

[NDX]

- Vince McMahon reportedly "blew a gasket" backstage at RAW last night during the CM Punk vs. John Cena main event. Word is that Vince got upset when Punk hit Cena with a piledriver, which is a banned move when done the way Punk did it. Vince was upset with Cena and Punk but because it was them, there will likely be no serious punishment.

Source. F4WOnline

Screw that ****, Vince. Do you know how much we popped for that move because we haven't seen it in such a long time? It was perfect for the match.

 

[The Sage]

Yeah, it was the same type of piledriver that broke Austin's neck. He was never the same after that.

Not totally the same. Owen used a sitdown tombstone variation on Austin.

 

[NDX]

I've seen more accidents from German suplexes (including a man getting crippled) than from piledrivers. Most people know how to hit them and take them, and Cena and Punk executed that one perfectly.

 

[the dmg]

I just finished Raw, and Cena/Punk just feed off of each other so well. Such a great match they had, I was legit surprised when Punk held him in the piledriver position. I thought Cena was going to reverse it into a back body drop. I wonder if Punk lead that charge and Cena just rolled with it.

I was engaged the whole way through, damn.

 

[Metallo]

I'm watching last night's main event again right now, and I keep thinking I would have loved to be a fly on the wall when Cena and Punk were planning their match backstage. I bet they were agreeing that they were each going to do something that would make jaws drop that night.

Not sure if they are friends in real life, but there has to be a lot of mutual professional respect there for that to have happened.

At the VERY least theres a lot of professional respect. These guys are on the road most of the time in the trenches together trying to lead the company. They've done a lot for each other professionally for the last couple of years. It wouldn't be a shock if they've developed some kind fo respect or even friendship. Cena did for Punk exactly what needed to be done and at this point I doubt Punk minded returning the favor. Thats how the business should work so things keep going smoothly. These guys need a trust in the ring and out if they are going to keep working well together.

Cena also showed he's not stupid. He has a good mind for long term business. He knew that by elevating Punk he planted the seeds for a long term rivalry that would make money for everybody involved for years. Thats a smart investment. And he had a good eye for seeing the right talent to want to work with. A lot of top guys in the past have let their ego and protecting their spot get in the way of that kind of smart thinking.

Originally Posted by AntMan
No he blew a gasket because Punk landed on his ass. If Punk and Cena hadn't executed the piledriver as wel asl they did, Vince's golden boy might not have made it to Rematchamania.

I had a similar thought. A lot of moves are risky but that move is a litle more risky. Vince was probably pissed in general because the move wasn't authorized but he was even more pissed because of who was on the receving end of it.

Originally Posted by NDX
Screw that ****, Vince. Do you know how much we popped for that move because we haven't seen it in such a long time? It was perfect for the match.

Yeah it was just the right time to use it. Its just like what we were saying about blood earlier. After having NOT seeing it very often in recent years it was far more shocking to see Punk use such a rarely used and extreme move to put Cena away. It made it look like he was doing everything he could to win. Very cool usage and psychology.

Originally Posted by The Sage
Not totally the same. Owen used a sitdown tombstone variation on Austin.

Its been a while since I've seen the match but from what I remember Owens variation of the piledriver was one of the more dangerous looking ones I've seen. Mostly because it was executed so quickly that even if something was wrong Owen and Austin didn't have time to properly protect Austin.

The version Punk used is a lot like Lawlers. The person executing it sits/falls back a little more slowly. Owen kind of jumped up a little bit and landed on his a**. He was off his feet off the ground faster. I'd be terrified to take that because the impact looks harder.

Its a move that requires a LOT of trust since you are almost literally putting your life in someone else's hands.

Originally Posted by the dmg
I just finished Raw, and Cena/Punk just feed off of each other so well. Such a great match they had, I was legit surprised when Punk held him in the piledriver position. I thought Cena was going to reverse it into a back body drop. I wonder if Punk lead that charge and Cena just rolled with it.

I was engaged the whole way through, damn.

Agreed. Totally agreed. Very easy to stay glued to the screen and enjoy it. Its the way those kind of matches should go. They worked together very well and had a lot of fluid cooperation. A lot of trust. Especially by Cena ont he piledriver.

 

[the dmg]

Agreed. Totally agreed. Very easy to stay glued to the screen and enjoy it. Its the way those kind of matches should go. They worked together very well and had a lot of fluid cooperation. A lot of trust. Especially by Cena ont he piledriver.

If they don't do a triple threat for WM, it's going to be a repeat of last year's lackluster match. In fact, both of Rock's matches with Punk have been terrible, and that's with Punk carrying him the whole way. He's not in ring shape at all, and he gassed way too early in both.

 

[JabarR]

Spoiler

WWE taped this week’s episode of SmackDown on Tuesday night from Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Here are the results:

- This week’s Social Media SmackDown opens with World Heavyweight champion Alberto Del Rio vs. Damien Sandow. They had a verbal exchange before the match. Del Rio got the win with his cross armbreaker submission hold.

- Backstage, Daniel Bryan and Kane are shown arguing. Later tonight, they will get a rematch against the Prime Time Players, except this time – Kane will be the one that’s blindfolded and Bryan will have his arm tied behind his back.

- Antonio Cesaro defeated The Miz in a Best of 3 Falls Match to retain the United States championship, 2 falls to 1.

- A video aired hyping Fandango’s debut for later in the show.

- Randy Orton and Sheamus are shown talking backstage. Orton will face the Big Show later in the show.

- Jim Ross interviewed Zeb Colter and Jack Swagger in the ring. JR played up his history with Swagger, a fellow Oklahoma native, but Swagger played the heel and trash talked the Oklahoma Sooners. Zeb Colter started ranting about anti-immigration issues and said at WrestleMania, an English speaking American will finally be World Heavyweight Champion again. JR and Colter got into an argument, which led to Swagger knocking off JR’s cowboy hat and getting in his face. Alberto Del Rio ran out to make the save and cut a promo on Swagger.

- The Prime Time Players defeated Team Hell No in a non-title match. Kane was blindfolded and Bryan had his arm behind his back. The finish came when Kane and Bryan started arguing during the match, which allowed Titus to roll up Bryan up for the win. After the match, Kane and Bryan hugged, but Bryan then slapped Kane in the face.

- Backstage, the Big Show was interviewed and said he’s going to make an impact later tonight against Randy Orton.

- Sin Cara defeated Heath Slater (with 3MB).

- Backstage, Fandango is interviewed by Matt Striker. Striker mispronounced his name several times – which lead Fandango to call off his debut. He says he will debut when Striker can get his name right.

- Randy Orton vs. Big Show is the main event. The Shield came out and surrounded the ring. Sheamus came out to even the odds. The Shield beat down Orton and Sheamus. Big Show knocked out Roman Reigns and Ambrose and Rollins ran away. Big Show choke slammed Orton, but Sheamus then hit Big Show with a Brogue Kick and knocked him out of the ring. The match ended in a no contest.

 

[Lantern Venom]

It lacked multiple falls because neither of them wanted to do a job for the other, the last 30 minutes was a constant stream of high spots. Cena and Punk weren't using the headlock to grab wind, you do that later in a match if one of you is gassed. They used the headlock as a way to try and gain control over each other; "Control the body and you control the match" as the saying goes, that is how the first 5-10 minutes are with almost all big matches from HBK, Flair, Bret, Savage etc.....

Therein lies the heart of the issue. Bret and Shawn already had heat and it showed. Bret intentionally slowed the pace whenever he got the chance. He kept HBK grounded to limit the number of lucha-style moves Shawn would try since Bret, at the time at least, wasn't a fan of that style.

When you see HBK shove the ref at the end, I believe he was expressing frustration over a match that didn't become all that it should have been.

After rewatching the Punk-Cena match, I noticed Punk doing a lot of extended spot-calling in Cena's ear. There was definitely a "feeling-out" period at the beginning that stopped the match from exceeding the 4+ star range. But at least they tried to be different from their previous matches and I'll give Cena credit for at least trying a hurricanrana. I'll take a botch over laziness. You would never have seen Hogan, Warrior, Slaughter, JBL try something like that.

If they don't do a triple threat for WM, it's going to be a repeat of last year's lackluster match. In fact, both of Rock's matches with Punk have been terrible, and that's with Punk carrying him the whole way. He's not in ring shape at all, and he gassed way too early in both.

I'm as excited as anyone for Rock to be back, but he's missing opportunities now. I'm getting more and more worried about the WM main event. Cena's never been a great worker and Rock is middle-aged. They should both be working tag matches against one another (or something similar) to work out of the kinks before WM. There is a harsh glare thrown by the biggest match of the biggest show of the year.

 

[the dmg]

I'm as excited as anyone for Rock to be back, but he's missing opportunities now. I'm getting more and more worried about the WM main event. Cena's never been a great worker and Rock is middle-aged.

I'm no Cena fan, but the guy can work great matches when he's allowed to showcase them or when he's not being Super Cena.

They should both be working tag matches against one another (or something similar) to work out of the kinks before WM. There is a harsh glare thrown by the biggest match of the biggest show of the year.

I disagree about that. If they do that it wastes the actual payoff, which is still something I'm not looking forward to.

Plus, it's not the chemistry that's the issue, it's that Rock isn't in the condition he needs to be to even put on a fifteen minute match. He needs to work house shows and a few Raws to at least get some sort of conditioning.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Well judging by Punk's comments on Colt Cabana's podcast I'd say that there's a friendship there.

What did he say?

Therein lies the heart of the issue. Bret and Shawn already had heat and it showed. Bret intentionally slowed the pace whenever he got the chance. He kept HBK grounded to limit the number of lucha-style moves Shawn would try since Bret, at the time at least, wasn't a fan of that style.

Shawn had never gone 60 minutes before and I think Bret felt they needed to be careful not to get to get gassed because as fit as they were 60 minutes is not to be trifled with, especially given the type of spots Shawn loved doing, plus if you do too many you dilute their impact.

When you see HBK shove the ref at the end, I believe he was expressing frustration over a match that didn't become all that it should have been.

Shawn is my favourite ever wrestler but I thought that was just him being a dick and wanting Earl out of his spotlight.

After rewatching the Punk-Cena match, I noticed Punk doing a lot of extended spot-calling in Cena's ear. There was definitely a "feeling-out" period at the beginning that stopped the match from exceeding the 4+ star range. But at least they tried to be different from their previous matches and I'll give Cena credit for at least trying a hurricanrana. I'll take a botch over laziness. You would never have seen Hogan, Warrior, Slaughter, JBL try something like that.

If you call the match off the cuff in the ring you cannot avoid spot calling, it's the producers fault that they zoom in on it. The match was a 5 star match IMO.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Spoiler

WWE taped this week’s episode of SmackDown on Tuesday night from Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Here are the results:

- This week’s Social Media SmackDown opens with World Heavyweight champion Alberto Del Rio vs. Damien Sandow. They had a verbal exchange before the match. Del Rio got the win with his cross armbreaker submission hold.

- Backstage, Daniel Bryan and Kane are shown arguing. Later tonight, they will get a rematch against the Prime Time Players, except this time – Kane will be the one that’s blindfolded and Bryan will have his arm tied behind his back.

- Antonio Cesaro defeated The Miz in a Best of 3 Falls Match to retain the United States championship, 2 falls to 1.

- A video aired hyping Fandango’s debut for later in the show.

- Randy Orton and Sheamus are shown talking backstage. Orton will face the Big Show later in the show.

- Jim Ross interviewed Zeb Colter and Jack Swagger in the ring. JR played up his history with Swagger, a fellow Oklahoma native, but Swagger played the heel and trash talked the Oklahoma Sooners. Zeb Colter started ranting about anti-immigration issues and said at WrestleMania, an English speaking American will finally be World Heavyweight Champion again. JR and Colter got into an argument, which led to Swagger knocking off JR’s cowboy hat and getting in his face. Alberto Del Rio ran out to make the save and cut a promo on Swagger.

- The Prime Time Players defeated Team Hell No in a non-title match. Kane was blindfolded and Bryan had his arm behind his back. The finish came when Kane and Bryan started arguing during the match, which allowed Titus to roll up Bryan up for the win. After the match, Kane and Bryan hugged, but Bryan then slapped Kane in the face.

- Backstage, the Big Show was interviewed and said he’s going to make an impact later tonight against Randy Orton.

- Sin Cara defeated Heath Slater (with 3MB).

- Backstage, Fandango is interviewed by Matt Striker. Striker mispronounced his name several times – which lead Fandango to call off his debut. He says he will debut when Striker can get his name right.

- Randy Orton vs. Big Show is the main event. The Shield came out and surrounded the ring. Sheamus came out to even the odds. The Shield beat down Orton and Sheamus. Big Show knocked out Roman Reigns and Ambrose and Rollins ran away. Big Show choke slammed Orton, but Sheamus then hit Big Show with a Brogue Kick and knocked him out of the ring. The match ended in a no contest.

That ending.

Cesaro vs Miz, 2 out of 3 falls will hopefully be decent.

 

[JabarR]

Here's my WrestleMania Card!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


WWE Championship

Rock vs Cena II

World Heavyweight Championship

Alberto Del Rio vs Jack Swagger vs Dolph Ziggler (Triple Threat Match)

Divas Championship

Divas Gauntlet Match

Sheamus, Randy Orton & Big Show vs The Shield

Tag Team Championship

Tag Team Gauntlet

 

[Lantern Venom]

I'm no Cena fan, but the guy can work great matches when he's allowed to showcase them or when he's not being Super Cena.

I disagree about that. If they do that it wastes the actual payoff, which is still something I'm not looking forward to.

Plus, it's not the chemistry that's the issue, it's that Rock isn't in the condition he needs to be to even put on a fifteen minute match. He needs to work house shows and a few Raws to at least get some sort of conditioning.

Cena's best matches, which are few and far between, have usually been when he's been carried. When you are the #1 guy, you should be the one who can carry anyone to a great match.

I believe that both chemistry and muscle memory are the issues with the ME at 'Mania. Rock is older, slower, and not sharp right now. Cena's rarely sharp. They need to develop some interesting, well-honed sequences or they might well come off as merely decent like last year

 

[Wheels]

Punk just talked about how he and Cena were cool, and that Cena was a fan of Colt's Mat Classic gimmick and how Cena was standoffish during Punk's early days in the company and some other stuff..

 

[the dmg]

Cena's best matches, which are few and far between, have usually been when he's been carried. When you are the #1 guy, you should be the one who can carry anyone to a great match.

Cena may not be the best wrestler, but he can carry a match. Some of his best matches were against solid and consistent workers which doesn't translate to those people carrying him.

I believe that both chemistry and muscle memory are the issues with the ME at 'Mania. Rock is older, slower, and not sharp right now. Cena's rarely sharp. They need to develop some interesting, well-honed sequences or they might well come off as merely decent like last year

It could be chemistry, but from what I've seen, especially with his matches against Punk was that he's not conditioned enough. Rock also didn't seem liked he cared enough last time, while this time, he actually acts like he gives a damn.