There will be no peace in the Wrestling Thread until there is justice! - Part 88

[Hunter Rider]

Punk just talked about how he and Cena were cool, and that Cena was a fan of Colt's Mat Classic gimmick and how Cena was standoffish during Punk's early days in the company and some other stuff..

I see, was this a recent podcast?

 

[The Apocalypse]

Here's my WrestleMania Card!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


WWE Championship

Rock vs Cena II

World Heavyweight Championship

Alberto Del Rio vs Jack Swagger vs Dolph Ziggler (Triple Threat Match)

Divas Championship

Divas Gauntlet Match

Sheamus, Randy Orton & Big Show vs The Shield

Tag Team Championship

Tag Team Gauntlet

I paid 230 for a WM ticket. If that was just the card I wouldn't go. I'd go do something else. Even if I didn't sell the ticket.

 

[Wheels]

I see, was this a recent podcast?

No but I can look for it if you like.

 

[bullets]

Looking at the match again, I think along with building Cena up that it did the job rebuilding Punk for is bout with Taker. Kicking out of the AA, the powerbomb, and the legdrop. Even using the piledriver could be seen as foreshadowing since Taker's finish is the Tombstone.

I agree. Although people don't expect Punk to end the streak the version of him we saw Monday will offer a very compelling match.

Is anyone else tired of Lawler's fanboyish manner sometimes as a commentator?

I respect Lawler and used to really enjoy his commentary with Jim Ross. Unfortunately those days are long gone and he's become Vince's puppet. There was always a level of that before , but never this bad. Also I wish they never had Cole turn heel. I can't stand either of them anymore.

The thing is, the idea does have potential, but everyone involved bar Zeb (that includes creative) are fluffing it.

I really thought it was horrible watching Zeb walk all over Del Rio last night. I mean whoever's idea it was to let Zeb say all that relatively without response from Del Rio must have got a hook up from Swagger.

I think Zeb is doing really good promo work , but it just makes me feel that he deserves better.

Its probably one of McMahon's infamously stupid, petty little "tests."
Tear him down then suddenly build him up then tear him down again to see how he responds. Break his spirit and make him easly controllable and if need be disposable. Its an almost cultish atmosphere in WWE mentally speaking. Its no surprise so many people seem to be relieved when they leave or get released.

Younger talents and rising stars SHOULD be tested but not in the stupid bizarro world mind game way WWE and Vince McMahon like to do it. Their way can damage a wrestlers image and credibility with the audience before they even get a chance to show what they have.

A few people have had enough and jumped to TNA. Some went back to WWE but some stayed. I can't really blame either side. The money in the E is far better but the opportunities in TNA seem to be more fairly put out there to be earned.

For example Aries didn't get jerked around nearly as badly as Bryan has been.

What Vince is doing with Ziggler is insane. He should be rewarded for his efforts , not punished. I could understand having him lose a couple matches , but jobbing him out consistently is a waste. I still have hope since he was randomly added to the Elimination Chamber PPV , but they better not drop the ball with this guy.

TNA might not be the most financially successful company , but they don't run stars into the ground like WWE. I think that's a big thing to consider and why Jeff Hardy and Kurt Angle seem happy. Also Dixie doesn't have that vindictive side if you try to do an outside venture. I understand it even though I had hopes of seeing Jeff Hardy back in WWE.

I agree. As far as WM30...maybe Taker has tried to hang on as long as he can to make it there? Its going to be a big WWE milestone. Going out on a special show like that would make his retirement even more special.

I think Vince will go all out for WM 30 since WM 20 is basically tarnished. Undertaker's last match would be a great way to end it. He's one of the last stars associated with Mania history left. I'd like Austin to have one last match , but that still seems unlikely.

Like others have said anybody could be in Swaggers role. He's a body. Mantel/Colter brings the interesting part of in this gimmick.

If WWE keeps on giving Beck attention they are fools. Its just Vince being petty. I enjoy seeing Becks stupidity being made fun of but he needs WWE and the attention HE gets from all this more than WWE needs Beck. WWE is still very sucessful and popular. Becks sucess has peaked and he may never be as popular as he once was again.

By giving him, his name, and his opinions airtime WWE is just giving Beck press I'm sure he enjoys and can twist around to get people to watch/listen to his shows.

This is all now a waste of time. WWE's looking desperate for any mainstream attention they can get.

I wish they never responded to Beck because he tried to make WWE look beneath him when it's the other way around.

 

[the_ultimate_evil]

I wonder if the main problem with Ziggler is simply us. The iwc

Now it's no surprise that the IWC love everything ziggler does and again it's no surprise hhh and Vincent hate the IWC so with the constant praise we heap on Ziggler are with the ones at fault for his stalled push

 

[The Sage]

If you call the match off the cuff in the ring you cannot avoid spot calling, it's the producers fault that they zoom in on it. The match was a 5 star match IMO.

Angle used to be known getting caught spot calling, don't know if it still happens. In his Mania match with his Shawn, the audio picked up him saying "belly to belly", and Shawn did his corner flip and walked right into the belly-to-belly suplex.

 

[The Sage]

Thinking about it, Rock may want to give DDP Yoga a try. Chris Jericho's 42 now and he's able to retain his in-ring shape in between his appearances. He said in an interview two weeks ago that outside from core work with a personal trainer, he doesn't go to the gym anymore. He does DDP Yoga while he's on the road, when he gets free time.

DDP Yoga plus more in-ring time could benefit Rock. As Punk said to him in a tweet, "Heavy barbell curls do not help you breathe."

 

[Hunter Rider]

Angle used to be known getting caught spot calling, don't know if it still happens. In his Mania match with his Shawn, the audio picked up him saying "belly to belly", and Shawn did his corner flip and walked right into the belly-to-belly suplex.

Haha! I think it happened a couple of times in his matches with Joe as well. Sid used to be the worst, I remember him working Shawn and Hall in matches where he would openly tap his arm and grunt "Clothesline" while they were standing on opposite sides of the ring.

 

[Hunter Rider]

I hate that this match is happening but now that it is I wonder what the stipulation will be. I'm hoping for something like submission or some sort of match in a structure, basically anything that allows The shield's match to be a street fight.

A First Blood match would be the best option, it would play off the Raw brawl and protects Brock from a pointless pinfall loss, of course the issue would be the finish as the only PG era match of this type was a disaster.

Another possible option could be 3 Stages of Hell with the final fall being held in a steel cage with HHH winning via escape.

 

[Metallo]

If they don't do a triple threat for WM, it's going to be a repeat of last year's lackluster match. In fact, both of Rock's matches with Punk have been terrible, and that's with Punk carrying him the whole way. He's not in ring shape at all, and he gassed way too early in both.

Agreed. Again. Cena is not the issue in these matches. Punks not either. It Rock. He's the common factor in the weaker matches. He's carrying too much bulk and his cardio isn't what it should be.

Punk and Cena showed monday the main event of WM29 could use Punk. He adds an extra spark.

Originally Posted by the dmg
I'm no Cena fan, but the guy can work great matches when he's allowed to showcase them or when he's not being Super Cena.

Yeah. Thats why I love when he works matches like the one he did with Punk on Raw. He becomes the John Cena more fans want to see.

I disagree about that. If they do that it wastes the actual payoff, which is still something I'm not looking forward to.

Plus, it's not the chemistry that's the issue, it's that Rock isn't in the condition he needs to be to even put on a fifteen minute match. He needs to work house shows and a few Raws to at least get some sort of conditioning.

Yep. Tag matches aren't going to help if he's not doing them regularly. Rock HAD a tag match with Cena at Survivor Series and it didn't do sh** to help his match against Cena at WM a few months later.

If it was only about chemistry that would be one thing but its not. Rocks had subpar matches with Cena AND Punk. Nobody can say Punk can't work or needs to be carried. Every match Rock has had has been at best passable.

And kinks my a**. Its way more than that. Rock needs MORE ring time. Singles matches would be the best for that beause even singles matches have a different pacing than tag matches. Even at house shows. But Mr Hollywood is too busy to work house shows as champion. Thats why a lot of people here were down on him getting the title as a part timer. He's not going to be able to have a run that lives up to what it should be.

Originally Posted by Hunter Rider
Shawn is my favourite ever wrestler but I thought that was just him being a dick and wanting Earl out of his spotlight.

Exactly. Shawns said he didn't mean anything by what happened when the match was over. He just wanted the moment to himself because it was so special to him. He'd worked a long time to realize his dream.

If you call the match off the cuff in the ring you cannot avoid spot calling, it's the producers fault that they zoom in on it. The match was a 5 star match IMO.

Right. I've seen a ton of guys call the matches over the years. That has nothing to do with how good someone is. Its only getting more obvious because the mics are catching more noise and the producers are using more and closer camera shots and different angles. WWE has gotten really bad about putting the camera in the wrong places at the wrong times sometimes.

Originally Posted by Scar Predator
Cena's best matches, which are few and far between, have usually been when he's been carried. When you are the #1 guy, you should be the one who can carry anyone to a great match.

I believe that both chemistry and muscle memory are the issues with the ME at 'Mania. Rock is older, slower, and not sharp right now. Cena's rarely sharp. They need to develop some interesting, well-honed sequences or they might well come off as merely decent like last year

Even most great workers can't carry EVERYONE. Cena knows how to work. He's had great matches with people that weren't traditional workers. Big men, monsters, small guys, high flyers, etc. When you can work with that variety of talent you can work. Cenas no the problem its th Rock. It ain't muscle memory. He's just getting GASSED too fast and turning in mediocre work because he not willing to try harder.

Jericho's taken years off at a time but every time he comes back its like he hasn't missed a beat. Thats because Jericho's kept his cardio up and doesn't carry extra size that slows him down or makes his movements robotic and limited.

Originally Posted by bullets
I agree. Although people don't expect Punk to end the streak the version of him we saw Monday will offer a very compelling match.

Yeah despite the obvious outcome someone like Punk will be able to help Taker put on at the very least a solid match. Its much better than Taker being stuck with someone like Ryback.

What Vince is doing with Ziggler is insane. He should be rewarded for his efforts , not punished. I could understand having him lose a couple matches , but jobbing him out consistently is a waste. I still have hope since he was randomly added to the Elimination Chamber PPV , but they better not drop the ball with this guy.

TNA might not be the most financially successful company , but they don't run stars into the ground like WWE. I think that's a big thing to consider and why Jeff Hardy and Kurt Angle seem happy. Also Dixie doesn't have that vindictive side if you try to do an outside venture. I understand it even though I had hopes of seeing Jeff Hardy back in WWE.

Like I said before Vince is probably doing this for a few reasons. Because he's not concerned with anyone but the top guys. Because he has no interest in strong heels and usually just sees them as there to lose to the good guys. To hell with intriguing stories being told in the ring. He also wants to keep guys like Ziggler in line by breaking them down mentally. I've always said Vince wants the WWE brand to draw now. Not so much the stars. By showing Ziggler that he controls the course of his career he keeps more power to make sure something like past stars gaining too much power of their own won't happen.

No more Kliqs, or Austins, or Hogans, or Warriors holding him over a barrel with their star power to get what they want. Thats why the brand is the draw now not the stars. With no real stars except for a handful everybody is easily replacable. Even that handful has less power and fewer choices than their predacessors. Everyone else is just a cog. When one of the midcarders causes problems just swap out an old unwanted cog in the WWE machine for a new one. With Vince's ego he still thinks he can snap his fingers and "make" someone. Its all ego driven on Vince's part and yeah its stupid.

Originally Posted by the_ultimate_evil
I wonder if the main problem with Ziggler is simply us. The iwc

Now it's no surprise that the IWC love everything ziggler does and again it's no surprise hhh and Vincent hate the IWC so with the constant praise we heap on Ziggler are with the ones at fault for his stalled push

It wouldn't shock me. Vince is so petty I could see him stalling Zigglers progress just to stick it to the smart fans and prove he's "right" and others are wrong. Normally that would sound silly like a conspiracy theory but Vince isn't your usual rational person. Everyone who has watched his actions over the years knows that.

The stuff with Glenn Beck is a prime example. Kevin Kelly posted an interesting article recently that revealed that McMahons beef with Beck goes back almost fifteen years! Thats why he's staying on this issue.

I think the most obvious answer is Vince doesn't see much in Ziggler besides the athleticism. He doesn't see him as a "star" or what a top guy "should be." Its the same problem he's had with Christian for years so it wouldnt surprise me if thats also why he's holding Dolph back. McMahon's stubbornly stuck in his ways and on his vision. He only changes complex opinions or ways of doing things unless he's forced to.

Originally Posted by The Sage
Thinking about it, Rock may want to give DDP Yoga a try. Chris Jericho's 42 now and he's able to retain his in-ring shape in between his appearances. He said in an interview two weeks ago that outside from core work with a personal trainer, he doesn't go to the gym anymore. He does DDP Yoga while he's on the road, when he gets free time.

DDP Yoga plus more in-ring time could benefit Rock. As Punk said to him in a tweet, "Heavy barbell curls do not help you breathe."

*ahem*... anyway... I agree. Maybe DDP's work could help him. He needs to do something to improve his agility, his speed, his flexability, and his cardio. Jericho is older than The Rock and also a part timer (who does more wrestling than Rock) yet he smokes him in the ring despite also having some long layoffs. Thats why I respect Jericho's in ring work ethic far more. He doesn't come back only to half ass it. He makes sure the people get their moneys worth instead of letting himself blow up after ten minutes.

Originally Posted by Hunter Rider
Haha! I think it happened a couple of times in his matches with Joe as well. Sid used to be the worst, I remember him working Shawn and Hall in matches where he would openly tap his arm and grunt "Clothesline" while they were standing on opposite sides of the ring.

I've seen Triple H do something similar by tapping his leg to call a spot with a hand signal. It happens. I even knew exactly what he was going to do before he did it and I was right.

 

[Wheels]

WWE put the entire Punk/Cena match on their YouTube channel.

 

[Pink Ranger]

WWE put the entire Punk/Cena match on their YouTube channel.

So I guess even the WWE management knows they had lightning in a bottle that night.

And yet the main event at WM will go on as planned.

 

[Kaleb]

As noted earlier, The Undertaker's television return is imminent and could take place as soon as Monday's "Old School" RAW.

The long-rumored Undertaker vs. CM Punk match at WrestleMania will in fact be taking place. The match was confirmed about a week ago, when the Undertaker told WWE he'll be physically ready to compete on April 7th.

Now, WWE's creative team is rushing to fast-track the feud with just over 5 weeks until the pay-per-view. One big issue with Punk's match against The Undertaker is that he's now lost 3 high profile matches - against The Rock at the Royal Rumble & Elimination Chamber and against John Cena on Monday's RAW. Punk remains one of WWE's top draws, but there is concern that another big loss could affect his perception with fans.

source:lordsofpain

 

[Van Petrol]

Who remembers this?...

 

[Dr. Evil]

 

[the dmg]

Agreed. Again. Cena is not the issue in these matches. Punks not either. It Rock. He's the common factor in the weaker matches. He's carrying too much bulk and his cardio isn't what it should be.

It's not necessarily the bulk, it mostly the cardio. I don't know what the hell he was thinking without conditioning his body. I also think that Rock probably thought that he was in great condition, which he is, but he's not in wrestling condition.

Punk and Cena showed monday the main event of WM29 could use Punk. He adds an extra spark.

Definitely. It shouldn't even be an option. Punk should be in this match.

Yeah. Thats why I love when he works matches like the one he did with Punk on Raw. He becomes the John Cena more fans want to see.

Exactly. A lot of it has to do with his gimmick as well, so if that ever changes, I can see Cena changing up from his style.

Yep. Tag matches aren't going to help if he's not doing them regularly. Rock HAD a tag match with Cena at Survivor Series and it didn't do sh** to help his match against Cena at WM a few months later.

He needs to be more active. I'm actually glad when they revealed that Taker appeared at a house show, which means that he wants to put on a great match, so he's shaking off that ring rust from being away.

If it was only about chemistry that would be one thing but its not. Rocks had subpar matches with Cena AND Punk. Nobody can say Punk can't work or needs to be carried. Every match Rock has had has been at best passable.

And kinks my a**. Its way more than that. Rock needs MORE ring time. Singles matches would be the best for that beause even singles matches have a different pacing than tag matches. Even at house shows. But Mr Hollywood is too busy to work house shows as champion. Thats why a lot of people here were down on him getting the title as a part timer. He's not going to be able to have a run that lives up to what it should be.

His schedule probably doesn't give him time to do house shows, but I think he would if he could, IMO. I think it comes down to Vince and Rock's agent not wanting him to get hurt because it affects WM for Vince and it affects the films that Rock is working on. It's a lose-lose, and one of the reasons I don't think it was a good idea to put the title on him in the first place.

But like I said before, at least since his return it actually seems like he cares when you compare it with the last time. So hopefully this will translate into him at least wrestling matches on Raw instead making appearances. Give him someone like AmDrag, who could make Rock look like a million bucks, or people that are solid workers, so he'll least likely get injured.

Jericho's taken years off at a time but every time he comes back its like he hasn't missed a beat. Thats because Jericho's kept his cardio up and doesn't carry extra size that slows him down or makes his movements robotic and limited.

I didn't want to bring up the Jericho comparison because he's an actual part-timer, and comes back for months at a time unlike the Rock, who is not. But yeah, Jericho always comes back like he never left, I respect that a great deal about him.

*ahem*... anyway... I agree. Maybe DDP's work could help him. He needs to do something to improve his agility, his speed, his flexability, and his cardio. Jericho is older than The Rock and also a part timer (who does more wrestling than Rock) yet he smokes him in the ring despite also having some long layoffs. Thats why I respect Jericho's in ring work ethic far more. He doesn't come back only to half ass it. He makes sure the people get their moneys worth instead of letting himself blow up after ten minutes.

I'm actually considering getting the advanced DDP Yoga, as a lot of body building forums recommend it a lot, so I figure that when I'm not at the gym I can try it out and see how his strength conditioning Yoga actually works.

 

[Mr.?]

there is concern that another big loss could affect his perception with fans.

source:lordsofpain

Punk should win the match than. Taker is on his way out anyway.

 

[TheFuture]

As noted earlier, The Undertaker's television return is imminent and could take place as soon as Monday's "Old School" RAW.

The long-rumored Undertaker vs. CM Punk match at WrestleMania will in fact be taking place. The match was confirmed about a week ago, when the Undertaker told WWE he'll be physically ready to compete on April 7th.

Now, WWE's creative team is rushing to fast-track the feud with just over 5 weeks until the pay-per-view. One big issue with Punk's match against The Undertaker is that he's now lost 3 high profile matches - against The Rock at the Royal Rumble & Elimination Chamber and against John Cena on Monday's RAW. Punk remains one of WWE's top draws, but there is concern that another big loss could affect his perception with fans.

source:lordsofpain

Sometimes I think some of these guys are just making educated guesses. After not returning this week, it's basically a banker that he'll be at Raw next week to set up the match. If they leave it any longer than that then that will be absolutely ludicrous.

 

[Pink Ranger]

I'm actually considering getting the advanced DDP Yoga, as a lot of body building forums recommend it a lot, so I figure that when I'm not at the gym I can try it out and see how his strength conditioning Yoga actually works.

DDP and Trish Stratus would make a fortune if they worked together to make a men's yoga program for guys who train in MMA, American football and other sports that destroy your body.

 

[the dmg]

DDP and Trish Stratus would make a fortune if they worked together to make a men's yoga program for guys who train in MMA, American football and other sports that destroy your body.

Agreed. They could do big things with a program together.

 

[venom892]

I hate that this match is happening but now that it is I wonder what the stipulation will be. I'm hoping for something like submission or some sort of match in a structure, basically anything that allows The shield's match to be a street fight.

A First Blood match would be the best option, it would play off the Raw brawl and protects Brock from a pointless pinfall loss, of course the issue would be the finish as the only PG era match of this type was a disaster.

Another possible option could be 3 Stages of Hell with the final fall being held in a steel cage with HHH winning via escape.

I think 3 stages of hell would be ideal.It would match the spectacle of the Taker/HHH HIAC. I'd do it like this.

Fall 1-No holds Barred
Fall 2-Submission
Fall 3-Cage

Then we can get The Shield vs. Ryback/Orton/??? in a street fight.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Right. I've seen a ton of guys call the matches over the years. That has nothing to do with how good someone is. Its only getting more obvious because the mics are catching more noise and the producers are using more and closer camera shots and different angles. WWE has gotten really bad about putting the camera in the wrong places at the wrong times sometimes.

Exactly, modern production advancements are not a wrestlers friend when it comes to that aspect, if you look at matches these days I bet they switch camera shots at least 5 times as much as they did just 5 years ago, so it's no wonder the guys get caught out..

I've seen Triple H do something similar by tapping his leg to call a spot with a hand signal. It happens. I even knew exactly what he was going to do before he did it and I was right.

I don't think there is a guy in the businnes that works the oldschool way in the ring that doesn't have some signature tells that you start to notice as they wrestle on TV so often now.

 

[Pink Ranger]

Exactly, modern production advancements are not a wrestlers friend when it comes to that aspect, if you look at matches these days I bet they switch camera shots at least 5 times as much as they did just 5 years ago, so it's no wonder the guys get caught out..

I don't really have an issue when I see or hear calls being made; I kind of enjoy it actually, as it gives me additional insight into the sport.

Move-calling is one of those things that you only notice if you know what to look for. For kids watching, or even adult fans that aren't aware of how moves are called in the ring (and there are a lot of them) they likely won't notice.

 

[Lobo]

I wonder if the main problem with Ziggler is simply us. The iwc

Now it's no surprise that the IWC love everything ziggler does and again it's no surprise hhh and Vincent hate the IWC so with the constant praise we heap on Ziggler are with the ones at fault for his stalled push

You're probably right. I still want to see Ziggy get a 100% clean win over some top guy. Del Rio, Sheamus even Ryback.

WWE put the entire Punk/Cena match on their YouTube channel.

I'd show this match to people and say "This is why I love professional wrestling"

Agreed. They could do big things with a program together.

I think I'm going to try the DDP yoga.

 

[Hunter Rider]

As noted earlier, The Undertaker's television return is imminent and could take place as soon as Monday's "Old School" RAW.

The long-rumored Undertaker vs. CM Punk match at WrestleMania will in fact be taking place. The match was confirmed about a week ago, when the Undertaker told WWE he'll be physically ready to compete on April 7th.

Now, WWE's creative team is rushing to fast-track the feud with just over 5 weeks until the pay-per-view. One big issue with Punk's match against The Undertaker is that he's now lost 3 high profile matches - against The Rock at the Royal Rumble & Elimination Chamber and against John Cena on Monday's RAW. Punk remains one of WWE's top draws, but there is concern that another big loss could affect his perception with fans.

source:lordsofpain

However do they solve this conundrum?........................

Boyz II Men lost a member?

I think 3 stages of hell would be ideal.It would match the spectacle of the Taker/HHH HIAC. I'd do it like this.

Fall 1-No holds Barred
Fall 2-Submission
Fall 3-Cage

Then we can get The Shield vs. Ryback/Orton/??? in a street fight.

The only problem is that no holds barred could look very similar to a street fight. Maybe they could go submission-sledgehammer ladder match-cage.