Batman Begins Things Batman Begins got Right/Wrong

[Nightwing1977]

I agree than on Nolan's AND on Burton's side, there are extremists who think that this version is perfect...but that's why it,s boring, nothing is perfect, I mean I'm myself a huge Burton and Nolan fan, I like their visions on the Batman mytho, but I can't just say nothing went wrong, because in both cases it's false. Nothing is perfect, people has to be aware of that. You have to analyze the world with nuance, not just pure saturated statement : this is perfect, this is non-perfect, thus has to die, kinda speech. Don't know if you see my point, but anyway, both Nolan and Burton had excellent points and things to improve. And I don't want to start a Nolan VS Burton disagreement again.

Same here. If some say B89 or BR pro is everything & cons is nothing, I'm not going to yawn about it. It their feeling on the films. I mean I may prefer Nolan's vision more, but I ain't going to put down on Burton despite not being fan on some of his visions. I think you need to accept there half of those who like Nolan & other half who like Burton, Damiean. Otherwise, I think you're being too extremist.

 

[Damiean Dark]

Why he deserve to get a yawn from you for that? I could do the same if you mention the same way to B89 & BR with thinking those 2 pros are everything & nothing on cons.

Because no film is flawless i love b89 and br yes but i will be the first person to admit it has flaws it looks very dated by todays standards, im not a fan of joker killing the waynes, jack is packing a few too many pounds in the movie ect ect if some people here accept BB has its flaws too this thread would be a better place imo.

 

[COMPO]

to be honest i liked most of the stuff in BB and yes, it did have its flaws like Falcone didnt seem all taht threatening as he did in the comics or Batman allowing Ra's to die. But, it gets on my nerves when people moan about the fact that Bruce didnt train to be Batman since he was a kid. I mean, he did have some training cos he took on 7 men or 6 depending who you are.

But, i liked that Bruce was sort of a lost sole, cos it gave the origin a fresh new feel to it and gave some very character depth.

 

[Asteroid-Man]

I loved the movie but I hated that Duccard and Ghul were the same

 

[lonzoe]

Respect his opinion or die.

What you want some shrimp or a box of chocolates.

Anyways this a great thread a lot of you guys that state the flaws on BB are on the same page as me. Personally I think BB is an okay movie. I remember walking out VERY disappointed and ripped off. I expected Nolan and and co. to raise the bar high for movies, comic book movies and of course the Batman movies. I was expecting them to make Batman the way we never seen him before in any medium. All I got was a flawed, dumb, generic, popcorn, comic book, batman movie. They were saying "this is the way Batman should be." I shudder to think of that qoute now.

Looking at TDK trailer the so called "DARK" Joker is now similar to Romero's joker with a little of TLJ's two face. I'm still going to wait to see what Ledger does because I'm not one of those haters. I wait to see the movie and peformance before I judge it. It's just that it's BB all over again where the actors and especially Nolan are saying s--t that isn't there in the footage. And the tumbler is still doing destruction. I never liked the idea of the tumbler since the first pick and after BB I'm sticking with it because there is no point for it to be there but to DESTROY. These movies are taking too much notes off the Spidey trilogy. Dawes is too much like MJ, Alfred giving a speech the way Aunt May did, Dawes could be dating Dent like Harry and MJ, etc. Begins did the same BS. At the end Rachel talks toWayne at what's left of his house( another con) about there relationship just like spidey 1 and 2, Dawes is the girl next door just like MJ. I never liked the Rachel character she was there for the GENERIC love interest in a comic book/ batman movie. She was written poorly and Nolan wrote that for Holmes ( who also gave a weak performance as all of you know). He should've known that she wouldn't be able to pull that off (I mean HELLO Dawson's Creek thats all she's mainly known for other than being Mrs. Cruise) The character was poorly written anyway so both the character and actress didn't benefit form eachother. And now Rachel is back with a facelift she looks like Kirsten Dunst looking like a brunette but is named Maggie Gyllanhaal. Same mistakes the other films made with the different Batmen. Personally I wouldn't of brought Dawes back. I know he didn't want a new love interest in each film like the others. The character is lame, IMO, and Holmes didn't make it better. I guess I'll have to wait and see what Gyllanhaal does because she didn't impress me from that decent looking trailer of TDK.
I'll stop ranting and just conclude by saying that I like this thread a lot and have been waiting for this thread for 2 1/2 years. Keep it up.

 

[Doctor Baywatch]

Batman destroying random buildings and cars was bad, too. Yes.

 

[christpunchers]

Tumbler going over cars and through buildings = Mr Freeze's Icetank going through brick walls in B&R.

 

[christpunchers]

What didnt work for me was that wayne was too sane. For a guy to dedicate his life to fighting crime as a superhero it takes a bit of insanity. Bale was too ok with things. In B89 and BR Michael Keaton portrayed a BW who never got over his parents death.

Yes Yes Yes, Keaton played a very good Bruce Wayne (minus some flaws physically but nothing you could do about that), he was almost uncomfortable as Bruce, always disturbed and puzzled, hell, at least for those 2 movies, he WAS Bruce Wayne. Bale on the other hand, felt like an actor, not Bruce Wayne. If a rich pretty boy is gonna dress up like a bat, he would need to show some insanity, some craziness. To have Christian read his already dried and boring lines with his eyes bulging out and wide-awake isn't enough. You gotta show him to be a little bit crazy, delusional (Bale could pull it off but the script never gave him a chance). I don't even like burton's bat films that much but 5 seconds of screentime with Keaton as Bruce Wayne saying NOTHING had more impact than 5 cheesy dialog coming out Bale's mouth (not that Bale is no good but he just doesn't have that tortured soul look to him).

 

[Damiean Dark]

Yes Yes Yes, Keaton played a very good Bruce Wayne (minus some flaws physically but nothing you could do about that), he was almost uncomfortable as Bruce, always disturbed and puzzled, hell, at least for those 2 movies, he WAS Bruce Wayne. Bale on the other hand, felt like an actor, not Bruce Wayne. If a rich pretty boy is gonna dress up like a bat, he would need to show some insanity, some craziness. To have Christian read his already dried and boring lines with his eyes bulging out and wide-awake isn't enough. You gotta show him to be a little bit crazy, delusional (Bale could pull it off but the script never gave him a chance). I don't even like burton's bat films that much but 5 seconds of screentime with Keaton as Bruce Wayne saying NOTHING had more impact than 5 cheesy dialog coming out Bale's mouth (not that Bale is no good but he just doesn't have that tortured soul look to him).

Someone here has a lot of common sense at last! Keaton was better as wayne (and for me as batman) even though unlike you i loved burtons movies its good to see someone look beyond Bales good looks and see a imo autopilot and cliched performance from him. If bale was a crap actor i could understand a bad performance but bale was made for this modern interpretation of the character he is broody and intense in american psycho a toned down version of that would have been perfect for BB i just think it was bad direction, dialouge and lack of a truely freash take beyond the first 30 minutes that killed the movie for me.

 

[roach]

I agree with this. keaton was a better Bruce while Bale had the potential to be a better Batman. Keaton's Bruce regularly reviews his parents files and relives the moments.The first Bruce scene from BR showed how nutty he was without any dialogue

 

[That'ssuper!]

There was too little exploration into how Rachel Dawes and Bruce grew up as children. They were friends, that's all we know, not enought in-sight if you ask me. There is also the fact she was a DA's assistant and drove the crappiest car in the city.

 

[LexCorp]

I think the film got most parts right. In fact as I am typing this I find it hard to think of something it got wrong. I mean really wrong.

I think the origin story was given plenty of attention and really nailed the idea of who Bruce is and how he becomes Batman.

I like the idea that he does pushups first thing in the morning, is shown with bruses on his body, tries hard to be a Bruce Wayne that poeple need to see and all the little things that you would want to be filled in were there.

 

[Damiean Dark]

It did get a lot right its just something is missing from the final product it has no soul imo.

 

[lonzoe]

I think the film got most parts right. In fact as I am typing this I find it hard to think of something it got wrong. I mean really wrong.

I think the origin story was given plenty of attention and really nailed the idea of who Bruce is and how he becomes Batman.

I like the idea that he does pushups first thing in the morning, is shown with bruses on his body, tries hard to be a Bruce Wayne that poeple need to see and all the little things that you would want to be filled in were there.

That bruise looked fresh. That bruise was from the night he talked to Gordon for the first time with his unfinished costume. Basically I'm saying thats a goof. That wasn't from the night he caught Falcone and his operation. I don't believe he got hit once by any of the thugs.

Another problem with BB was the scene where his house was on fire. And he and Alfred escaped in the cave. As bale was talking to him about how he failed ( man that is so spiderman) Alfred lift his jacket and you see a wound by the ribs. I think his ribs were broken. The movie didn't even get into that for the rest of the climax. That would've been good to see Batman struggling with broken ribs to save Gotham through the rest of the night or climax. They should've went along with that to show that yes Batman's a superhero but he's still human and he's not Superman, Spiderman, Wolverine, Hulk and all the rest. By ignoring that he became no different than the rest. All that made me think was that this Batman has a healing factor. That IMO is just as bad as Daredevil's miraculous recovery from his BAD shoulder on the same night. Nolan said he wanted to make a Batman movie because he was human and not like your average superhero. He just missed his point. Well he's got another shot in TDK hopefully the Joker wounds him in the movie. I want to care for Bats when I look at my favorite hero on the big screen. To see him risk his life while saving his city at the same time he's sporting a wound is brave, heroic, and everything a character like Batman needs. Thats why I wasn't worried about Batman being unable to save the city. He had no disadvantages. He had Alfred save his a-- from being barbecue after he made Alfred take Rachel home in order for her to give the antidote, which Lucius made himself, to Gordon in order for him to be able to drive the tumbler,assuming that he can drive a stick, so he can destroy the tracks, the train is using, thats carrying the fear toxin .Because Batman thinks in order stop the train he has to destroy it.
All that work his father did to build it for people who had no transportation is all ruined. Batman in this movie did more damage than good in this movie. He used the tumbler to destroy everything in his way because Rachel was in danger ( which I think is BS). Theres no reason for a guy who dresses up as Bat whose trying to keep a low profile to drive a tank in the middle of Chicago City. You read right. That's like if a guy drives a tank in the middle of New York without calling attention to himself. Come on Nolan I thought you were trying to be realistic. Then Bruce's home gets destroyed while he just stands there that's the only thing left of his family and he just stands there and then gets his a-- whip by Raz al Ducard. Then the damage that he made in the Narrows and the Wayne Monorail.
Then most of the inmates escaped from Arkham. In this movie Batman was anyone but a hero. So I don't know why the f--k he gets his own signal. When he sure as hell didn't earn. He's still a vigilante and the evidence above is proof. Gordon got promoted to Lt. for aiding and abedding a vigilante. The last shot after Batman and Gordon destroyed the day. After Batman flew away Gordon waved at him while standing in tumbler. Thats hollywood and comic book/Batman movies for you. Man this movie is a missed opputunity. That's my rant for today folks. Keep this thread going. I hope this keeps going till TDK.

 

[lonzoe]

Double post

 

[SuperHotSexyGuy]

Someone here has a lot of common sense at last! Keaton was better as wayne (and for me as batman) even though unlike you i loved burtons movies its good to see someone look beyond Bales good looks and see a imo autopilot and cliched performance from him. If bale was a crap actor i could understand a bad performance but bale was made for this modern interpretation of the character he is broody and intense in american psycho a toned down version of that would have been perfect for BB i just think it was bad direction, dialouge and lack of a truely freash take beyond the first 30 minutes that killed the movie for me.

I responded to one of your posts in TDK spoiler forum and basically what I said is that your interpretation of Batman is totally incorrect. He is not deranged or neurotic. He certainly is NOT like the psychopath Patrick Bateman. You seem to think that Bruce Wayne should have some sort of psychosis but in none of the comics or episodes of BtAS does he show that he acts with some sort of deranged neurotic personality. He's not happy and he's disturbed but he's always in control. Bale's Bruce Wayne captures this notion perfectly.

Also, I hate that you keep throwing around this notion of Begins have no "soul." What the heck does that mean anyways? You can't quantify that and it seems like it's just some vague term you throw out to make your displeasure of Begins seem more articulate.

 

[Joe Von Zombie]

It did get a lot right its just something is missing from the final product it has no soul imo.

What does that even mean? Burton's Batman was just Edward Scissorhands with a cape and cowl. The one common complaint I have is some of the duologue is a little cheesy, but thats a gripe I have with EVERY comic book movie to date. The complaint I hear about Bruce's mental state is completely asinine this early in this series now if this was say Miller's The Dark Knight Returns and Bale gave us the same performance I'd see where there would be a problem.

 

[Damiean Dark]

I responded to one of your posts in TDK spoiler forum and basically what I said is that your interpretation of Batman is totally incorrect. He is not deranged or neurotic. He certainly is NOT like the psychopath Patrick Bateman. You seem to think that Bruce Wayne should have some sort of psychosis but in none of the comics or episodes of BtAS does he show that he acts with some sort of deranged neurotic personality. He's not happy and he's disturbed but he's always in control. Bale's Bruce Wayne captures this notion perfectly.

Also, I hate that you keep throwing around this notion of Begins have no "soul." What the heck does that mean anyways? You can't quantify that and it seems like it's just some vague term you throw out to make your displeasure of Begins seem more articulate.

<sigh>

soul

/so&#650;l/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sohl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation,
–noun 1.the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; the spiritual part of humans as distinct from the physical part. 2.the spiritual part of humans regarded in its moral aspect, or as believed to survive death and be subject to happiness or misery in a life to come: arguing the immortality of the soul. 3.the disembodied spirit of a deceased person: He feared the soul of the deceased would haunt him. 4.the emotional part of human nature; the seat of the feelings or sentiments. 5.a human being; person. 6.high-mindedness; noble warmth of feeling, spirit or courage, etc. 7.the animating principle; the essential element or part of something. 8.the inspirer or moving spirit of some action, movement, etc. 9.the embodiment of some quality: He was the very soul of tact. 10.(initial capital letter

) Christian Science. God; the divine source of all identity and individuality. 11.shared ethnic awareness and pride among black people, esp. black Americans. 12.deeply felt emotion, as conveyed or expressed by a performer or artist.

 

[roach]

The you dont know a thing about Batman. Batman's mental state have nothing to do with how long he's been at the hero game. Certainly he's not a psychopath but there is something not right with Bruce.

 

[Damiean Dark]

batman

 

[Nightwing1977]

<sigh>

soul

/so&#650;l/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sohl]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation,
–noun 1.the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; the spiritual part of humans as distinct from the physical part. 2.the spiritual part of humans regarded in its moral aspect, or as believed to survive death and be subject to happiness or misery in a life to come: arguing the immortality of the soul. 3.the disembodied spirit of a deceased person: He feared the soul of the deceased would haunt him. 4.the emotional part of human nature; the seat of the feelings or sentiments. 5.a human being; person. 6.high-mindedness; noble warmth of feeling, spirit or courage, etc. 7.the animating principle; the essential element or part of something. 8.the inspirer or moving spirit of some action, movement, etc. 9.the embodiment of some quality: He was the very soul of tact. 10.(initial capital letter

) Christian Science. God; the divine source of all identity and individuality. 11.shared ethnic awareness and pride among black people, esp. black Americans. 12.deeply felt emotion, as conveyed or expressed by a performer or artist.

Sound like it was in BB. Just because BB is nothing like Burton's films don't mean it has no soul. I guess any Batman films not done by Burton doesn't have a soul then. Even thought BB does have one.

 

[LexCorp]

That bruise looked fresh. That bruise was from the night he talked to Gordon for the first time with his unfinished costume. Basically I'm saying thats a goof. That wasn't from the night he caught Falcone and his operation. I don't believe he got hit once by any of the thugs.

Another problem with BB was the scene where his house was on fire. And he and Alfred escaped in the cave. As bale was talking to him about how he failed ( man that is so spiderman) Alfred lift his jacket and you see a wound by the ribs. I think his ribs were broken. The movie didn't even get into that for the rest of the climax. That would've been good to see Batman struggling with broken ribs to save Gotham through the rest of the night or climax. They should've went along with that to show that yes Batman's a superhero but he's still human and he's not Superman, Spiderman, Wolverine, Hulk and all the rest. By ignoring that he became no different than the rest. All that made me think was that this Batman has a healing factor. That IMO is just as bad as Daredevil's miraculous recovery from his BAD shoulder on the same night. Nolan said he wanted to make a Batman movie because he was human and not like your average superhero. He just missed his point. Well he's got another shot in TDK hopefully the Joker wounds him in the movie. I want to care for Bats when I look at my favorite hero on the big screen. To see him risk his life while saving his city at the same time he's sporting a wound is brave, heroic, and everything a character like Batman needs. Thats why I wasn't worried about Batman being unable to save the city. He had no disadvantages. He had Alfred save his a-- from being barbecue after he made Alfred take Rachel home in order for her to give the antidote, which Lucius made himself, to Gordon in order for him to be able to drive the tumbler,assuming that he can drive a stick, so he can destroy the tracks, the train is using, thats carrying the fear toxin .Because Batman thinks in order stop the train he has to destroy it.
All that work his father did to build it for people who had no transportation is all ruined. Batman in this movie did more damage than good in this movie. He used the tumbler to destroy everything in his way because Rachel was in danger ( which I think is BS). Theres no reason for a guy who dresses up as Bat whose trying to keep a low profile to drive a tank in the middle of Chicago City. You read right. That's like if a guy drives a tank in the middle of New York without calling attention to himself. Come on Nolan I thought you were trying to be realistic. Then Bruce's home gets destroyed while he just stands there that's the only thing left of his family and he just stands there and then gets his a-- whip by Raz al Ducard. Then the damage that he made in the Narrows and the Wayne Monorail.
Then most of the inmates escaped from Arkham. In this movie Batman was anyone but a hero. So I don't know why the f--k he gets his own signal. When he sure as hell didn't earn. He's still a vigilante and the evidence above is proof. Gordon got promoted to Lt. for aiding and abedding a vigilante. The last shot after Batman and Gordon destroyed the day. After Batman flew away Gordon waved at him while standing in tumbler. Thats hollywood and comic book/Batman movies for you. Man this movie is a missed opputunity. That's my rant for today folks. Keep this thread going. I hope this keeps going till TDK.

Oh yeah I know that bruise was a rookie mistake. But that is part of the charm and learning curve of BB.

The fact that you are seeing broken ribs where there was none makes your posts a little hard to take seriously.

More damage than good? How? So he damaged one part of one transport system in Gotham, roof tops with the tumbler. But he saved everyones lives by stopping the fear gas from spreading. If he did not act everyone would die. Yes Gordon got a promotion for helping Batman. Gotham is not a nice place. He was aiding and abedding Batman for good reasons for crying out load.

Your whole post is off base!

 

[Damiean Dark]

Hey if you or others see it thats cool, me? i just dont i see a parady of soul a dialouge/script that tells us people are feeling all these emotions (WHY DO WE FALL" ECT) but it doesnt translate to screen through speech or acting its good but they can do so much better honestly can you rate Bales (for example) BB performance against American psycho or the machinest? is it more nuanced, heartfelt and acted as good as then in those movies? in comparison imo it really does look like he is on autopilot he is far better then that.

 

[LexCorp]

Hey if you or others see it thats cool, me? i just dont i see a parady of soul a dialouge/script that tells us people are feeling all these emotions (WHY DO WE FALL" ECT) but it doesnt translate to screen through speech or acting its good but they can do so much better honestly can you rate Bales (for example) BB performance against American psycho or the machinest? is it more nuanced, heartfelt and acted as good as then in those movies? in comparison imo it really does look like he is on autopilot he is far better then that.

The scene where he buys the hotel in BB is just like a dinner scene from American Psycho IMO.

If it doesn't grab you by the heart strings then fine it was not that kind of film. Stop talking about the sould emotion of the film when it clearly is not about that.

 

[lonzoe]

Oh yeah I know that bruise was a rookie mistake. But that is part of the charm and learning curve of BB.

The fact that you are seeing broken ribs where there was none makes your posts a little hard to take seriously.

Oh so I dreamed it up now. Ribs broken or not he was still bleeding by the ribs in that scene I described. He should've been wounded for the rest of the climax. But instead Nolan pulled a Daredevil and somehow he was able to fight like nothing happened.

More damage than good? How? So he damaged one part of one transport system in Gotham, roof tops with the tumbler. But he saved everyones lives by stopping the fear gas from spreading. If he did not act everyone would die. Yes Gordon got a promotion for helping Batman. Gotham is not a nice place. He was aiding and abedding Batman for good reasons for crying out load.
Uh, Wayne Manor was also destroyed because of his carelessness. He should've known that the LOS would've track him down I mean he's Bruce Wayne and he practically gave the address of the city he was going to protect. Back on topic, he destroyed a s---tload of police cars as well as other vehicles (when he parked between two vehicles so he can fly over and drive on rooftops, which shouldn't even be able to hold the tumbler let alone a tank). He was wreckless and that excuse he made that Rachel was dying is BS. There could've been another way for him to handle that situation without bringing attention to himself,IMO. You already brought up the monorail stuff. "Gotham is not a nice place" WTF is that suppose to mean.That is a PATHETIC excuse to defend why Gordon got promoted. In reality, I'm speaking in Nolan language, why would someone promote a Sgt. to Lt. for helping a destructive, wreckless , sorry excuse for a hero who dresses up as a bat for destroying the most expensive monorail of Wayne Enterprises and Chicago City for? Batman did do more damage than good. He did more damage than the Hulk did in his own movie. Superman and Spiderman never caused as much property damage in their recent movies as Batman did in this .Case f--KIN Closed!

Your whole post is off base!

And you're off base BTW. Just another f--kin fanboy who refuses to see the flaws.