Batman Begins Things Batman Begins got Right/Wrong

You could take out the Joker or even the great Ra's with a taser. I know that they could have pitted the scarecrow against batman and have him escape or something, but the movie already had a bigger villain there to be handled. Besides.... Guess who's back in TDK and who's crashing his party.....

I'm convinced they're using a far better writing for Joker and Ra's than they did with the lousy Scarecrow exit they gave. The fact he wasn't the main villiain doesn't justify a pathetic semi-comedic way to take him out of the action. I ignore what Scarecrow's intervention in TDK is going to be (I haven't seen any pic of him yet), but what they did with him in BB was poor either compared to the comics or just by itself.
 
one big gripe I have with BB is the moment he is to become an official member of the league of shadows....Bruce flips a hot brander up some balcony and everything ignites, explodes and goes up in flames...and within seconds...members of the LOS start running around like chickens with their heads cut off...I guess they never prepared for a fire drill. If theres one thing they got wrong...it was definitely this entire sequence...horrible editing (sound and film) and way too quick and confusing. Ken Watanabee(?spelling) was crushed by what looked like ply wood...and was pretty lame. An exciting scene when you first see the movie...but after repeat views I've always been rubbed the wrong way by it.
 
I'm convinced they're using a far better writing for Joker and Ra's than they did with the lousy Scarecrow exit they gave. The fact he wasn't the main villiain doesn't justify a pathetic semi-comedic way to take him out of the action. I ignore what Scarecrow's intervention in TDK is going to be (I haven't seen any pic of him yet), but what they did with him in BB was poor either compared to the comics or just by itself.

I thought that was pretty funny and in keeping with this version of the character, one of the few ways the film broke with convention
 
I honestly can't think of any cons. I think it's one f the best superhero movies made.
 
I thought that was pretty funny and in keeping with this version of the character, one of the few ways the film broke with convention
I didn't mind the concept of getting rid of a villain with a secondary character, using a taser. In a way it makes sense, and I don't feel that every villain who shows up in a superhero movie has to necessarily be taken down by the superhero himself, that doesn't even always happen in the comics. Though, again, if Goyer wasn't writing this script, maybe that scene would've been better, but again it's plagued by Goyer's awful screenwriting abilities. "No, Scarecrow" "I'm here to Helpppp-puh". Ugh, awful.
 
I thought that was pretty funny and in keeping with this version of the character, one of the few ways the film broke with convention

The version of the character was the opposite of comedy, so being funny is not "keeping with this versdion of the character." The movie also broke his serious realistic conventions with many of the one liners, which were as shameful as this Scarecrow scene.
 
The fact that he got taken down is what's in keeping, reduced to a wimp. Though as Shadowboxing says, it's more the concept I like rather than the slightly random execution
 
The fact that he got taken down is what's in keeping, reduced to a wimp. Though as Shadowboxing says, it's more the concept I like rather than the slightly random execution

That's the point. Execution is what BB got wrong about it. The movie had an awful sense for humour.
 
The version of the character was the opposite of comedy, so being funny is not "keeping with this versdion of the character." The movie also broke his serious realistic conventions with many of the one liners, which were as shameful as this Scarecrow scene.

The fact that he got taken down is what's in keeping, reduced to a wimp. Though as Shadowboxing says, it's more the concept I like rather than the slightly random execution
That's what this movie always looked like to me: a diamond in the rough. The problem with the movie is the actors, directors and other contributors are all forced to basically polish this turd of a script Goyer pens for the movie.
 
Yeah i know what you mean. Ra's was just crushed with half kilo worth of ply wood. Really lame!
one big gripe I have with BB is the moment he is to become an official member of the league of shadows....Bruce flips a hot brander up some balcony and everything ignites, explodes and goes up in flames...and within seconds...members of the LOS start running around like chickens with their heads cut off...I guess they never prepared for a fire drill. If theres one thing they got wrong...it was definitely this entire sequence...horrible editing (sound and film) and way too quick and confusing. Ken Watanabee(?spelling) was crushed by what looked like ply wood...and was pretty lame. An exciting scene when you first see the movie...but after repeat views I've always been rubbed the wrong way by it.
 
some high points, for me, anyways:

-Great character build up in the creation of Batman
-Explains how/why Batman designed his costume, and explains how he obtained his fighting skills!
-Great relationship build up within Bruce and Ra's
-Cillian was excellent as Dr. Crane (I know I'll get a lot of **** for that)
-Gordon was absolutely perfect.
-They explained the reason for the cape, and then actually utilized it in the movie!
-One of the coolest endings in a superhero flick I have seen



Some low points:

-Bale's voice was a little weird at times (as the infamous "it's what I DOOO" comes back into play)
-The way Rachel "defeated" Scarecrow later in the movie


that's really all I can think of for right now...


as for some other stuff that was addressed earlier in the thread..

-Scarecrow's "potato sack" costume
Well, as this is a BEGINS movie, and sticking with trying to be realistic, yes I figure Crane would probably just be a sick doctor WITHOUT a costume at this point. The "mask" is simply a tool used to further induce fear into a victim after gassing them...like, duh, and some stuff.
He was later in the movie donning a straight jacket and riding a horse. Tell me he didn't seem completely psychotic at that point. After all, he was given a taste of his own medicine and presumably, has probably gone a little more insane. Now, that being said, Scarecrow IS in the TDK, and I'm sure he will have some sort of actual costume this time around, so everyone should get their panties out of a bunch.


-The Penguin being scary
While I'm not going to argue that the Penguin probably wasn't supposed to be the downright monster he was in Returns, I do believe that a man with his features would sort of be scary, either way. In Returns, he was simply given more animalistic characteristics, and yes, I suppose he was pretty scary haha. Hell, I think even seeing Danny Devito in a dark alley might give me the willies.
Yeah, that's just strange.
 
I don't understand how any TRUE Batman fan couldn't enjoy Begins...

1.) We get a very good actor in Christian Bale picked for the lead role, who not only looks the part, but could also act out the part as well. His duality performance as Bruce Wayne and Batman was outstanding.

2.) We finally get an explaination of Batman's origin on-screen. Granted, it was a re-telling, but it was sensical. In the original film, we only got a 5 minute flashback of the Joker killing Batman's parents (a change back then that I ALWAYS hated, I'm so glad Nolan was able to fix that crap with Joe Chill instead). I mean hell, even the original Superman film dedicated the first hour to explain how Superman came to be.

3.) We also get a phenominal supporting cast of Morgan Freeman, Michael Caine, Liam Neeson, Gary Oldman, and Ken Watanabe. All superb actors.

4.) They went back to the dark vision Tim Burton had instead of sticking with the Adam West days Schumacher was trying to relive.

5.) There was more focus on the Bruce Wayne character.

6.) There was emphasis on Batman having been trained in the MARTIAL ARTS and he being able to showcase that. Not just the punch / kick combo like a Rock 'Em 'Sock 'Em toy from the previous films.

7.) It was a good choice to use new villains in Ras Al Ghul and The Scarecrow instead of a previous villain being re-used or brought back.

8.) The Batman suit was cool.

Granted, BB isn't a perfect film. It has its flaws. Mainly, being the Bat SUV Tank and Katie Holmes, but that's just me being nitpicky, but it truly is the Best Batman film since Batman Returns.

For me, a down-to-Earth realistic film is so much better than an over the top campfest version. See: James Bond.
 
I had forgotten how scattershot the third act was. It was really all over the place.

...It didn't make sense in the world that Nolan spent the first hour building up. I mean, after Bruce's parents are killed and he learns the extent of mob corruption in Gotham, Bruce secludes himself in Asia learning ninja skills, then he goes back to Gotham to take down said mob. And oh, for the finale, it turns out that the group he learned ninja skills from is now in Gotham and they have an evil plan to make everyone in the city crazy and destroy each other.

Its kind of strange to notice many fans of this film saying the third act was somehow illogical. I agree with Lobster Charlie's response to this complaint. Yes it was a plot to destroy the city, but with the sociological underpinnings, I definitely felt they took an old idea and remixed it into a smart usage of it.

For those who dont feel the ending makes sense, I'll just share how I see it. It IS kind of mind bending and morally questionable, so imo thats the reason many just dismissed it:

The Leagues principals are based on biblical values that the only way to root out rampant criminality and corruption is to flatten the effected area. Cities like Sodom and Gomorrah come into mind. What makes these guys so morally ambiguous is that they take it upon themselves to exact this type of lofty supreme form of justice. This is what correlates them to Osama or such.

When Ras explains the first time they attacked Gotham, he says they used economics. What he also says is he UNDERESTIMATED some citizens goodness and this is why their plan failed. This means he expected the greedy white collar criminal element to just play into this plan, suggesting they studied the economic climate long before they targeted the city. This is a big reason the city was targeted in the first place it would seem, so The league didnt just turn on the city out of the blue.

Now when Thomas Wayne ends up reversing what shouldve been a swift knockout to the entire cities economic system thus destroying it, the city became a sort of mutated version of itself that shouldve never existed in the Leagues eyes. Thus they use the backup plan decades later to finish the job (the gas).

The entire issue with a human exacting this kind of justice is that they have to use the same means that a criminal does: tap into the infrastructure. Still similar is Bruces approach, still having to break the law in order to accomplish his goals. They are more similar than many realize, their ultimate approaches to justice however put them at staunch opposition, as Bruces legacy is one of restoration of whats already there, while the League believes in tossing out the old water altogether.

"You have to become more than just a man in the mind of your opponent, you have to become an idea, a wraith".

This quote ties directly with the lofty apocalyptic ideology at the end, so I found it very narratively consistent. Not to mention Watanabe mentioned it already in the middle of the film.

Especially with Jokers anarchy tearing down progress, whats going to be interesting is to see if the League was correct ultimately in TDK: can anyone save Gotham?
 
Its kind of strange to notice many fans of this film saying the third act was somehow illogical.
I didn't mean "illogical" as in "I didn't get it" but illogical in the world that they presented us.

The first half of Batman Begins, it's quite an intimate sort of thing. Bruce fighting in the jail, Bruce being trained in the mountains, Bruce becoming Batman - those scenes took place in a very defined setting with a very defined group of people. Even the dock scene and the Arkham breakout takes place in a very defined setting with a defined group of people (Falcone's goons, SWAT team, GPD).

Once it gets back to the Narrows with the Fear Toxin Attack, it suddenly involves EVERYBODY. If we had some sort of inkling earlier in the movie that the League of Shadows worked in this manner, the change in tone wouldn't be so abrupt. From Bruce's training, it would seem like this group would be secretive, initiating their plan with stealth. Not like, taking a train down the middle of the city and having every manhole cover blow up. It's a bit of an overkill, LOL.

It doesn't take away my overall enjoyment of the movie, but it is an abrupt change in tone that makes me raise my eyebrows a little bit. Many good movies that I've seen have this problem - everyone's been raving about Wall-E, for instance, but I was underwhelmed by the third act where every human on the spaceship was involved. It was such an drastic shift from what we were given before, and I didn't completely buy it. I buy it a little more in BB, but it's still something that the first half doesn't prepare me for.
 
Once it gets back to the Narrows with the Fear Toxin Attack, it suddenly involves EVERYBODY. If we had some sort of inkling earlier in the movie that the League of Shadows worked in this manner, the change in tone wouldn't be so abrupt. From Bruce's training, it would seem like this group would be secretive, initiating their plan with stealth. Not like, taking a train down the middle of the city and having every manhole cover blow up. It's a bit of an overkill, LOL.

Well they did stealth it at first, it just didnt work entirely lol.

But yes... an overkill was needed at that point it would seem. If at first you dont succeed...

I dunno, I had good enough warning when fake Ras told us the cities that they took down and how "Gotham must be destroyed" in that sinister tone, right before Bruce escaped the mountain mansion. It might be how familiar a person is with these type of "end of the world" views I suppose. IMO there wasnt any real leap. Afterall, god supposedly used fire and a flood in 2 instances to clean up.
 
Well they did stealth it at first, it just didnt work entirely lol.

But yes... an overkill was needed at that point it would seem. If at first you dont succeed...

I dunno, I had good enough warning when fake Ras told us the cities that they took down and how "Gotham must be destroyed" in that sinister tone, right before Bruce escaped the mountain mansion. It might be how familiar a person is with these type of "end of the world" views I suppose. IMO there wasnt any real leap. Afterall, god supposedly used fire and a flood in 2 instances to clean up.

It not that they did take down the city, but how. We are given the impression that the League of Shadows is a secertive organisation; no one knows about it and even it's name lend weight to that theory. Yet in a modern, realistic world they're going ride a train around Gotham openly knowing that any news or police hilicopter could spot them? Suddenly they go from obsecurity to the most famous terrorist organisation in the world.
 
Didnt crane take the fall for all of that bs? LOL They set him up so perfectly. Poor preppy.

I recall this from a Gotham Tonight episode.
 
It not that they did take down the city, but how. We are given the impression that the League of Shadows is a secertive organisation; no one knows about it and even it's name lend weight to that theory. Yet in a modern, realistic world they're going ride a train around Gotham openly knowing that any news or police hilicopter could spot them? Suddenly they go from obsecurity to the most famous terrorist organisation in the world.

That would only be true if they publicised their name. Otherwise they're just people dressed as ninjas if spotted. Nobody would necessarily know who they are. Also the plan was for the whole city to go nuts so there'd be nobody that could be coherent enough to say anything about them. Except Bruce so he needed to go first and that's why they needed to get to him.

By the way I didn't know there were internet connections to hell (aimed to a someone above that claims to be there ;)). Is it crap at staying connected?

Angeloz
 
Gotham City was being hit hard by the toxin. The new media wouldn't have reacted quickly enough, because by the time they'd had gotten word that the train was the main compodent...it would have been hours later. They certainly had to be either at the bridge or at Arkham where the breakout happened.

The news would never have a shot. Plus...who's to say the League of Shadows doesn't have control of one of Gotham's news organizations?
 
I loved Batman Begins, but the worst bit of it for me was near the beginning when Henri Ducard/Ra's Al Ghul is sitting around the campfire with Bruce Wayne, and he says something like the following in a really matter-of-fact tone -

'I haven't always lived in the mountains you know...'

No #@&$ sherlock!! :woot:

It's only a line, I know, but it made me laugh so much!!
 
The things I loved about Begins is how it was Batman's movie and how the Scarecrow and Ras Al Ghul were back characters to Batman. The relationships between Gordon and Alfred were well done. With Alfred you could tell he cared about Bruce Wayne and the interaction between him and Bruce was really good. Gordon felt like the Gordon from the comics. I hated how in the Burton/Schumacher films that Gordon wasn't treated like an actual character. and the whole movie felt like it could actually happen in our world. I loved that aspect that Chris Nolan brought to Batman.
 
I think the only thing I really have a problem with is the microwave emitter. If they released a compound that has to be absorbed in the lungs, then it just seems like if its in the water, its getting in your body either way. Other than that I think it shines above every other comic book based film.
 
I liked Begins cause it was primarily focused on Bruce/Batman. The two villains were pretty well done. And Alfred was far more developed than before. And it was just simply better than anything before. It had some flaws but the good far outweighs the bad for me.
 

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