Batman Begins Things Batman Begins got Right/Wrong

[Batphil]

.....moustaches...

 

[StylishHokie21]

Pros:

Bale as Bruce Wayne/Batman
Gary Oldman as James Gordon
Murphy as Scarecrow
Caine as Alfred Pennyworth
The Tumbler
The action was pretty intense

Cons:

Holmes as Rachael Dawes: definitely the weakest part of the movie,IMO.
Some of the fight sequences were poorly edited.
Some of the dialogue was cheesy.
Repetitive dialogue
Microwave emitter plot was kind of stupid.

 

[MacLeod]

Pros:

Bale as Bruce Wayne/Batman
Gary Oldman as James Gordon
Murphy as Scarecrow
Caine as Alfred Pennyworth
The Tumbler
The action was pretty intense

Cons:

Holmes as Rachael Dawes: definitely the weakest part of the movie,IMO.
Some of the fight sequences were poorly edited.
Some of the dialogue was cheesy.
Repetitive dialogue
Microwave emitter plot was kind of stupid.

I'll agree with you on the actors, those four that you listed were good. I have to take the Tumbler and action and put it in the con area though. The Tumbler, although a great vehicle, is not a Batman vehicle in my opinion and the action was too edited to see anything, fighting or otherwise. I agree with your cons and would/could add a ton more but I'll leave that for another time.

 

[Anita18]

Going on a YouTube blitz, and came across some BB scene vids.

I had forgotten how scattershot the third act was. It was really all over the place. World domination = meh. But as part of the rest of the movie, it's pretty forgiveable, and it doesn't take away from the truly kickass parts (dock scene FTW! And ending convo between Bats and Gordon whee!).

Even though BB was really good, there's still plenty of room for improvement. And I think Chris Nolan is better when he's collaborating with his brother. They make a fantastic team.

 

[Doctor Baywatch]

I had forgotten how scattershot the third act was. It was really all over the place. World domination = meh. But as part of the rest of the movie, it's pretty forgiveable, and it doesn't take away from the truly kickass parts (dock scene FTW! And ending convo between Bats and Gordon whee!).

that was really strange. Everything was so down-to-earth and realistic and then they were actually blowing the whole city up with microwaves.

Talk about a "breach of style"

 

[MacLeod]

that was really strange. Everything was so down-to-earth and realistic and then they were actually blowing the whole city up with microwaves.

Talk about a "breach of style"

What about the breach of changing the origin of the character? This was supposed to be Batman's origin story but yet they changed it. Bruce didn't think of fighting crime until his mid twenties, there was no study from childhood, no various martial art training, and his entire crusade to save Gotham started at age 29/30 compared to when he was about 12. That's just not fair or right.

 

[sasquatchs]

If they thought making the decision at such a young age was laughable they could have had Bruce attempt legitimate paths towards justice inside the system, say study law at Princeton. Then he realizes for himself that the system doesn't work and begins his campaign of mental and physical perfection etc. The independence and motivation just wasn't there until too late in the day, made for a boring origin regardless of comic accuracy/inaccuracy

 

[Lobster Charlie]

Going on a YouTube blitz, and came across some BB scene vids.

I had forgotten how scattershot the third act was. It was really all over the place. World domination = meh. But as part of the rest of the movie, it's pretty forgiveable, and it doesn't take away from the truly kickass parts (dock scene FTW! And ending convo between Bats and Gordon whee!).

Even though BB was really good, there's still plenty of room for improvement. And I think Chris Nolan is better when he's collaborating with his brother. They make a fantastic team.

All over the place? There's nothing about World Domination in the plot, they're talking about restoring harmony---and this was mentioned by Ra's and his decoy in the first act. They'd already set the plot up way ahead of time.

 

[Doctor Baywatch]

What about the breach of changing the origin of the character? This was supposed to be Batman's origin story but yet they changed it. Bruce didn't think of fighting crime until his mid twenties, there was no study from childhood, no various martial art training, and his entire crusade to save Gotham started at age 29/30 compared to when he was about 12. That's just not fair or right.

To make Bruce Wayne a directionless soul compared to the comic guy who swore to fight crime at the grave of his parents when he was just a few years old and focused on crime fighting is quite a big change, yes.

 

[Doctor Baywatch]

If they thought making the decision at such a young age was laughable they could have had Bruce attempt legitimate paths towards justice inside the system, say study law at Princeton. Then he realizes for himself that the system doesn't work and begins his campaign of mental and physical perfection etc. The independence and motivation just wasn't there until too late in the day, made for a boring origin regardless of comic accuracy/inaccuracy

that is basically how It was in the comics.

 

[lonzoe]

If it piss you off, why you continue to watch it? You're in denial, aren't you?

I said when I try to rewatch BB, to see if I've been looking too much into it and not enjoying it for what it is,it p--ses me off , not to mention I'm ready to flip the channel because the movie doesn't grab my attention long enough. And when I finish sitting through BB I feel nothing from the movie like I came in expecting something more and walked out with nothing to think about but the flaws. I don't look at BB for flaws they just happen to stick out a lot to me especially if the people working on BB saying "this is the way Batman should be." LIke this is the right and real Batman. I came in the theatre, like an IDIOT, expecting that and that's an impossible job to do IMO. They seemed so confident that I believe everything they said eventhough the rubber suit and scarecrow look should've been a hint.I guess I got caught up in the hype and reviews.

Those who like BB aren't Batman fans?
I never said that and it seems to be vice versa.

And you been waiting for 2 yrs. & a half? More like 10 months, since you didn't join the forum at the time BB came out.

I've been around superherohype for about four or five years and I always used to read the threads and never post but since the last 10 months or whenever I've joined. I thought enough is enough it's time speak out.

 

[lonzoe]

If it piss you off, why you continue to watch it? You're in denial, aren't you?

I said when I try to rewatch BB, to see if I've been looking too much into it and not enjoying it for what it is,it p--ses me off , not to mention I'm ready to flip the channel because the movie doesn't grab my attention long enough. And when I finish sitting through BB I feel nothing from the movie like I came in expecting something more and walked out with nothing to think about but the flaws. I don't look at BB for flaws they just happen to stick out a lot to me especially if the people working on BB saying "this is the way Batman should be." LIke this is the right and real Batman. I came in the theatre, like an IDIOT, expecting that and that's an impossible job to do IMO. They seemed so confident that I believe everything they said eventhough the rubber suit and scarecrow look should've been a hint.I guess I got caught up in the hype and reviews.

Those who like BB aren't Batman fans?
I never said that and it seems to be vice versa.

And you been waiting for 2 yrs. & a half? More like 10 months, since you didn't join the forum at the time BB came out.

I've been around superherohype for about four or five years and I always used to read the threads and never post but since the last 10 months or whenever I've joined. I thought enough is enough it's time speak out.Sorry I never quoted someone before. But the BOLD is me speaking.

 

[matthooper]

Right: A cure for insomnia.

Wrong: The third act.

 

[MacLeod]

that is basically how It was in the comics.

That is how it should have been in the movie too, especially if it was the origin story that everyone has been waiting for. Batman in Begins is no different than anyone else who trained in the martial arts for a small amount of time. The only thing he has going for him is the money which in my opinion is not Batman, it just helps Batman. Basically, if you break a few laws and train for under seven years you can be Batman. This is not why I like the character and read the comics and collect the collectibles. Batman is more, much more. Training in one way or another, be it martial arts, exercising, science, criminology, detective work, etc., since childhood is what makes Batman the best at what he does. The Begins Batman only has seven years of training, that's less than most people in a martial arts dojo, less than me in fact, does that mean I can be Batman? And, he's afraid of bats, Batman afraid of Bats, that idea throws me, that's like Superman being afraid of primary colors. The point is there was no reason for this to be called Batman Begins, it could have just as easily been called Vigilante Begins, especially since he decided at age 29/30 to save Gotham, instead of age 12. The Batman aspect was lost right in the begining of the movie for me. The fact that he was wearing a Batman like costume only made me want a better, more accurate movie, more.

 

[Anita18]

All over the place? There's nothing about World Domination in the plot, they're talking about restoring harmony---and this was mentioned by Ra's and his decoy in the first act. They'd already set the plot up way ahead of time.

Sacking Rome? Burning London to the ground? Ra's does a walk-through of all the corrupted cities in history and having them start over. Sounds kinda like world domination to me. (Okay, maybe not exactly, but definitely a global sort of movement here.)

What about the breach of changing the origin of the character? This was supposed to be Batman's origin story but yet they changed it. Bruce didn't think of fighting crime until his mid twenties, there was no study from childhood, no various martial art training, and his entire crusade to save Gotham started at age 29/30 compared to when he was about 12. That's just not fair or right.

I think it makes his decision that more moving. I mean, when I think of a kid who's had one obsession through his life since the age of 10, I'd think that kid was crazy. People don't relate to it. But I'm sure Bruce has always had a strong sense of justice - he doesn't know how to channel it and Ra's gives him that chance. I believe that people find it more relatable when someone is hopelessly lost and then finds their way.

I wouldn't have minded seeing Bruce go through FBI training and decide it wasn't for him though. They just went with another avenue, and I don't think it necessarily takes away from the character's devotion to his mission as it currently is. He's still a one-man mission to right the wrongs of a corrupted city.

 

[MacLeod]

Sacking Rome? Burning London to the ground? Ra's does a walk-through of all the corrupted cities in history and having them start over. Sounds kinda like world domination to me. (Okay, maybe not exactly, but definitely a global sort of movement here.)


I think it makes his decision that more moving. I mean, when I think of a kid who's had one obsession through his life since the age of 10, I'd think that kid was crazy. People don't relate to it. But I'm sure Bruce has always had a strong sense of justice - he doesn't know how to channel it and Ra's gives him that chance. I believe that people find it more relatable when someone is hopelessly lost and then finds their way.

I wouldn't have minded seeing Bruce go through FBI training and decide it wasn't for him though. They just went with another avenue, and I don't think it necessarily takes away from the character's devotion to his mission as it currently is. He's still a one-man mission to right the wrongs of a corrupted city.

You may have a point about people not relating to it but the truth of it is the origin of Batman is that he indeed did choose from an early age to fight for justice. Does that make him crazy, sure, but to change that, even in an attempt to make a better story, is drastically changing what makes Batman so special. It would be like Spiderman not getting bit by a spider because people would know when a spider is on them and they would flick it away before it bites them. Instead, he gets injected with a spider needle from some scientists and then becomes Spiderman. The result is the same but the storyline is drastically different. I often wanted to train in the martial arts but one day found the style I wanted, does that make me a hopeless soul that now can fight crime because in reality I've studied the martial arts longer than Bruce has. The point is, the origin is the key to Batman, 89 overlooked it but you still got the sense of what it was. Begins completely changed it making this less of a Batman story and more of a common every day vigilante story, a vigilante with a lot of money, but a vigilante nevertheless.

 

[RobC]

I quite liked the moustache as well...

 

[christpunchers]

I'm just glad that people realize that Begins was not the most perfect superhero movie ever.

It's half good, sometimes great, but at other times, very inconsistent (fear gas, alright, believable, Bruce reappearing in Gotham yet not being questioned more as to where he's gone, COULD happen; but microwave emitter? Batman pulling outrageous stunt of hanging onto a tram that's going at 300mph? None of the Batmans had the ability to use bionic cyborg arms before BB), a lot of weird stuff made it into the final script, they tried too hard to be faithful to the comics yet at the same time they were too dead-set on making it "realistic", the movie ended up suffering from a style and/or lack of style (not asking for Nolan to pull a Burton here but the 3rd act's action sequences were very meh).

Gotham cannot be too realistic otherwise it'll end up looking like Chicago (which it did at times in the movie). I did not particularly enjoy how often Batman showed up in plain view bulldozing everything (driving over a cop car with two cops inside??), he didn't feel sleek enough in some parts of the movie (blowing up a prison door), not like the version that he is in the comics where he tries to be a ninja and be hidden in the shadows.

I hope TDK will really make him more dark, questioning his own motives, and try to reflect some of his detective skills and some products of his training (climbing a mountain and a few sword fights weren't enough to convince me that this is the smartest man on Earth).

In short, the mix of style and substance was not properly balanced. Far too many corny lines (Everything Ras said the second he met Bruce was too "Heroic" too quick. Fear! Fear! Fear! Symbolism! Symbolism! "Nice Coat"? WTF?) made Begins a hard film to sit through from beginning to end after I've already seen it a few times over the years.

Not to hit any nerves here but just trying to express my honest opinion.

 

[christpunchers]

And whoever said Keaton played a better Batman/Bruce Wayne, too true. Christian, as much as I love the guy in the movies he's been in, was just.. too wooden, and unnatural at times (too much wide-eye stares and heroic pep talk with Alfred), I never got the feeling that he was Bruce Wayne or Batman, I just felt like he's an actor going through the list of the stuff he needs to show on screen, Keaton felt like a much more troubled person to me, comfortable as Batman, yet as Bruce Wayne he felt "caged in", not allowing his true motives to show, and Keaton did all this without having to appear like a Partyboy or a half drunk while talking to people, he was just... a mysterious person. Some may argue that Nolan was going for something different but for me, Bale just ended being wooden, flat, almost as if he is trying to do a softer version of American Psycho whenever he has to "throw" people off he could possibly be the Bat.

And yeah, I also agree that it is as if the script demands you to already know some background of Batman before you watch it. For me this already marks the movie down a notch. If the script is written with concisely, it would have showed that Bruce as a man who wants revenge, yet slowly learns that revenge and killing were not in his nature, his nature is only protect the innocent from the criminals. But I never got that feeling, all I felt was that he just suddenly wanted to be this Batman, out of convenience rather than determination: no job, no real responsibilities, billionaire playboy, he can do anything, he just happens to choose to fight crime... not too convincing enough.. Toss out the useless talk from Wilkinson with their tag-word "Fear" and do more valuable scene with Bruce vowing for revenge as a young man crying at his parent's grave (perhaps even pounding) on a rainy day while having Alfred with an umbrella, disagreeing with him about revenge and telling him the difference between right (to punish) and wrong (to kill, to go for revenge out of anger). I want to see some tears, and sadness, like the Christian Bale that cried at the steps after he head shotted his friend in Equilibrium. They did not use Christian Bale's acting abilities correctly, rather they just force onto his a raspy voice that was also inconsistent.

 

[MacLeod]

And whoever said Keaton played a better Batman/Bruce Wayne, too true. Christian, as much as I love the guy in the movies he's been in, was just.. too wooden, and unnatural at times (too much wide-eye stares and heroic pep talk with Alfred), I never got the feeling that he was Bruce Wayne or Batman, I just felt like he's an actor going through the list of the stuff he needs to show on screen, Keaton felt like a much more troubled person to me, comfortable as Batman, yet as Bruce Wayne he felt "caged in", not allowing his true motives to show, and Keaton did all this without having to appear like a Partyboy or a half drunk while talking to people, he was just... a mysterious person. Some may argue that Nolan was going for something different but for me, Bale just ended being wooden, flat, almost as if he is trying to do a softer version of American Psycho whenever he has to "throw" people off he could possibly be the Bat.

And yeah, I also agree that it is as if the script demands you to already know some background of Batman before you watch it. For me this already marks the movie down a notch. If the script is written with concisely, it would have showed that Bruce as a man who wants revenge, yet slowly learns that revenge and killing were not in his nature, his nature is only protect the innocent from the criminals. But I never got that feeling, all I felt was that he just suddenly wanted to be this Batman, out of convenience rather than determination: no job, no real responsibilities, billionaire playboy, he can do anything, he just happens to choose to fight crime... not too convincing enough.. Toss out the useless talk from Wilkinson with their tag-word "Fear" and do more valuable scene with Bruce vowing for revenge as a young man crying at his parent's grave (perhaps even pounding) on a rainy day while having Alfred with an umbrella, disagreeing with him about revenge and telling him the difference between right (to punish) and wrong (to kill, to go for revenge out of anger). I want to see some tears, and sadness, like the Christian Bale that cried at the steps after he head shotted his friend in Equilibrium. They did not use Christian Bale's acting abilities correctly, rather they just force onto his a raspy voice that was also inconsistent.

Good points, I thought the same thing. It bothered me greatly that for an origin story they didn't have Bruce decide from an early age to fight criminals. Deciding to find a reason to live at around age 23 is horrible for a Batman storyline. Also, having Bruce be completely useless and a lost soul for those 23 years was just as horrible in my opinion. Bale is a good actor, he could have done more if the script and/or Nolan wanted him to. Begins missed the origin point of the origin story.

 

[BubbaGump]

I'm just glad that people realize that Begins was not the most perfect superhero movie ever.

It's half good, sometimes great, but at other times, very inconsistent (fear gas, alright, believable, Bruce reappearing in Gotham yet not being questioned more as to where he's gone, COULD happen; but microwave emitter? Batman pulling outrageous stunt of hanging onto a tram that's going at 300mph? None of the Batmans had the ability to use bionic cyborg arms before BB), a lot of weird stuff made it into the final script, they tried too hard to be faithful to the comics yet at the same time they were too dead-set on making it "realistic", the movie ended up suffering from a style and/or lack of style (not asking for Nolan to pull a Burton here but the 3rd act's action sequences were very meh).

Gotham cannot be too realistic otherwise it'll end up looking like Chicago (which it did at times in the movie). I did not particularly enjoy how often Batman showed up in plain view bulldozing everything (driving over a cop car with two cops inside??), he didn't feel sleek enough in some parts of the movie (blowing up a prison door), not like the version that he is in the comics where he tries to be a ninja and be hidden in the shadows.

I hope TDK will really make him more dark, questioning his own motives, and try to reflect some of his detective skills and some products of his training (climbing a mountain and a few sword fights weren't enough to convince me that this is the smartest man on Earth).

In short, the mix of style and substance was not properly balanced. Far too many corny lines (Everything Ras said the second he met Bruce was too "Heroic" too quick. Fear! Fear! Fear! Symbolism! Symbolism! "Nice Coat"? WTF?) made Begins a hard film to sit through from beginning to end after I've already seen it a few times over the years.

Not to hit any nerves here but just trying to express my honest opinion.

And whoever said Keaton played a better Batman/Bruce Wayne, too true. Christian, as much as I love the guy in the movies he's been in, was just.. too wooden, and unnatural at times (too much wide-eye stares and heroic pep talk with Alfred), I never got the feeling that he was Bruce Wayne or Batman, I just felt like he's an actor going through the list of the stuff he needs to show on screen, Keaton felt like a much more troubled person to me, comfortable as Batman, yet as Bruce Wayne he felt "caged in", not allowing his true motives to show, and Keaton did all this without having to appear like a Partyboy or a half drunk while talking to people, he was just... a mysterious person. Some may argue that Nolan was going for something different but for me, Bale just ended being wooden, flat, almost as if he is trying to do a softer version of American Psycho whenever he has to "throw" people off he could possibly be the Bat.

And yeah, I also agree that it is as if the script demands you to already know some background of Batman before you watch it. For me this already marks the movie down a notch. If the script is written with concisely, it would have showed that Bruce as a man who wants revenge, yet slowly learns that revenge and killing were not in his nature, his nature is only protect the innocent from the criminals. But I never got that feeling, all I felt was that he just suddenly wanted to be this Batman, out of convenience rather than determination: no job, no real responsibilities, billionaire playboy, he can do anything, he just happens to choose to fight crime... not too convincing enough.. Toss out the useless talk from Wilkinson with their tag-word "Fear" and do more valuable scene with Bruce vowing for revenge as a young man crying at his parent's grave (perhaps even pounding) on a rainy day while having Alfred with an umbrella, disagreeing with him about revenge and telling him the difference between right (to punish) and wrong (to kill, to go for revenge out of anger). I want to see some tears, and sadness, like the Christian Bale that cried at the steps after he head shotted his friend in Equilibrium. They did not use Christian Bale's acting abilities correctly, rather they just force onto his a raspy voice that was also inconsistent.

I disagree with some your points, but these are some of the most well-thought out posts I've read in a while.

 

[Anita18]

I think that if BB wasn't pigeonholed into being a "summer blockbuster," the third act would have been a lot more cohesive and would have made a lot more sense.

And now that I've taken several steps back from it (BB being a 2-y-o movie now), yeah, it isn't the best movie ever. But it is my favorite? Good luck wiping the idiotic, geeky, gleeful grin off my face after that last scene with Gordon and Bats. t:

 

[El Payaso]

I think that if BB wasn't pigeonholed into being a "summer blockbuster," the third act would have been a lot more cohesive and would have made a lot more sense.

I too feel that's big part of the problem.

 

[Lobster Charlie]

What doesn't make sense about the 3rd act?

 

[CaptainBeaver91]

I've watched Begins about 15 times as of now and it's still hard for me to nitpick certain things that I find wrong with it. I agree with a lot of what some people have mentioned above, but when you are watching it...these complaints seem to remain hidden and then you are left to witness a great film.


Granted, one thing that truly bothered me was the constant use of the word 'fear'. Watch it again, and you'll see what I mean.