This show was just not well thought out

TheVelvetOnion

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Alot of people i know who have watched this show liked it but said its a little too "off" its like you know its x-men, there trying to relate to the modern stories of the x-men with the characters looking and acting more like how they are in the comics but, there all souless zombies with story that is going nowhere.

See the show was flawed.

The problem was they stuck Xavier the future, for the whole entire show Xavier would never awake in the past because he is communicating from the future and thus when the future is changed so is his current enviroment you saw it as days of the future past was gone a new future of age of apocaylpse occured.

So

the show was souless.
 
I wouldn't say it was soulless at all. It was nice to have a more sophisticated and mature superhero animated show on TV again. I think there were some flaws in the storytelling and execution, but generally the good outweighed the bad. I had more problems generally with JL, Avatar, and many other popular serialized shows.
 
The writing was very inconsistent, at times too ambitious for its own good, or feeling like the writers were drunk when they sat down at the computer, and the X-Men didn't have a very strong team dynamic. Filler episodes wasted on Wolverine having PG fights with the Hulk or rescuing the other X-Men from ninjas (WTF?) could have been used to flesh out other characters like Beast, Storm, Iceman, Kitty, etc. Nightcrawler was lucky to emerge unscatched, but Cyclops wasn't so lucky, not when just about every episode he appeared vilified him in some manner. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, given that Cyclops has often been a victim of poor writing. I doubt that Nolan North will miss playing the 'Frank Burns' of the series in juxtaposition to Wolverine's 'Hawkeye Pierce'.

Wolverine himself was actually pretty bland and adjusted to being the leader way too easily, giving the overall series an even more fan fictional feeling.

I guess season 2 may have improved things, but in the long run I think the show would have always suffered from the absurd premise of Wolverine being in charge. Time will tell what the next X-Men series has in store.
 
Panthro, I couldn't have said it better myself. I think you may have pointed out the main reasons why I didn't like this show.

I mean, when I heard years ago that the show would be called "Wolverine and the X-men" I knew it was going to be all about Logan. But the filler episodes annoyed me. It was like they were going out of their way not to develop other characters. It really did feel like Wolverine fanfiction at times.

It's a shame though. I really liked Gambit's characterization (when they weren't dumbing him down to make Wolverine look better).
 
It seems that I've given so many summaries about where I think this show went wrong, I may as well be paid by the mile for it. Let's see if I can do so again without cracking that 20k character limit for a post.

Panthro, as usual, summarizes the problems well. I feel that this show was written as a bit of a release after having to buckle and compromise with Kid's WB with "X-MEN EVOLUTION" about what couldn't be done. Apparently the creators had to haggle with the network for a lot of things, and many things they wanted to do had to be scrapped, or delayed, or so on. One major network caveat was a focus on the teenagers, which was why Wolverine was marginalized (although he still got more focus there than, say, Storm). So to me, when the chance to do "WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN" came aboard, many of the same writers and producers found themselves with the chance to do whatever they wanted on an X-Men show, with whoever they wanted, with likely the one corporate stipulation that Wolverine had to be the lead; which, frankly, I don't think bummed anyone at the office. There seemed to be a rush to do everything and anything, to cram in a million cameos, to do that deep, complicated and mature story, and have all the big explosions and gritty suspense that Kid's WB wouldn't let them do until about two seasons in. The problem, besides the execution, was that the characterization suffered. Even Wolverine, the star attraction, suffered a bit from the premise. He was often removed from where he was ideal, and sometimes came off like a standard gruff, hypocritical general. Storm was a non-entity, and Iceman not far removed from that status, too. Beast actually had a fun rapport as "co-leader" at the start, but that ended as soon as the roster hit about 7 members. I could probably write a full thesis on where Cyclops went wrong. Shadowcat and Forge could easily steal scenes or chew up scenery, but even they rarely escaped cliche. Nightcrawler was probably the best handled of the X-Men, and even he took a back seat by the time the endgame approached. Rogue also had a good subplot for the first half of the series, but after she rejoined the X-Men by the middle point, both that and her general character seemed to be lost to the void beyond showing up for a fight or one blurb at the finale.

Emma Frost was written as a tragic figure, and an anti-heroine. Most of her arc was intertwined with Cyclops, to the point that neither of them were quite as engaging alone (although Frost could still provide cute banter without Scott, while Scott just sulked if alone).

The villains probably fared better. Magneto I thought was handled pretty well; he had more of those anti-hero qualities that the 90's 'toon Magneto had, while still having the menace that the Evolution Magneto had. I liked his complicated relationship with his three children. Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver were handled well, or at least were interesting and usually consistent with who they were portrayed as. Even Lorna had her place. Senator Kelly was also handled well, and it was a treat seeing Mister Sinister again, and the Marauders.

As for the X-Men? To be blunt, after one episode, I probably liked Rover more than about half of them. And that's a problem once a fight comes in. By the finale I found myself just so disengaged with the fates of many of the characters.

The execution of the show was hit or miss, and I think that the show wasn't able to properly execute the ideas that the producers had, and while some areas went too far, others didn't go far enough. The producers intended for this show to have an X-Men who weren't in lock step because Wolverine wasn't supposed to be the best leader. The result was an X-Men that was still lock step, and beyond an occasional wisecrack from Kitty or Frost, none of the X-Men ever questioned Wolverine; no, not even Storm. If anything she was the quietest of all. Even when Wolverine was flat out wrong or led the X-Men into a trap or a misstep, or barked at Cyclops for doing a loner vengeance crusade before immediately doing the same thing himself ("because I'll survive" is his excuse; by that logic, Superman should yell at Batman every time he does something alone, yet smash through walls on personal vendettas in Justice League), none of the other X-Men seemed to care, and that harmed Logan too. On the other hand, the producers wanted a "flawed Cyclops", and with they they overdid it a bit much to produce a Cyclops who could hardly get out of bed or shave, or was never worthy of being a leader or even of Jean or Frost's devotion. The audience was told that this was out of character for him, for him to be a selfish, aggressive incompetent, but in his origin episode, it seems he was this way all along. The end result is Wolverine didn't replace a leader; he became the leader of a team that never seemed to have one. And even that was a sham, because Xavier was still the one giving orders and guidance.

Professor X was another flaw of the show. The producers stated they had a dilemma, because they didn't want to kill or permanently remove him, while they also didn't want him being present all the time. The compromise they devised didn't work. The result was Xavier was still the one calling the shots, and in theory any X-Man could have just carried them out; he was simply gung ho on Wolverine, to the extent that none of the other X-Men mattered. If Wolverine was having a conflict or personal doubt issue, Xavier would make sure to spend his rare time travel psychic time to soothe him. If Cyclops needed it, he was on his own. When it came down to offing Jean, Xavier suggested it without a moment's hesitation. It got to the point where it was hard to disagree entirely with Marrow in the future; that the X-Men were just Xavier's pawns, and he just wanted people to follow his orders and didn't actually care about the consequences. To be fair, Xavier had these moments in the comics (at some points resenting that Cyclops and Jean chose to actually have a private life when he abandoned it for the cause), but none of this is treated as a big deal. The X-Men were also quick to turn on anyone who was being brainwashed or possessed...except for Wolverine. Nightcrawler had to take GREAT care to not simply batter him into submission when Mojo was controlling him. Even when Wolverine's personal enemies came to the Mansion's doorstep and could have killed the entire X-Men if they chose, none of them complained. The only one who seemed to was Cyclops, who was always eager to blast Logan, but due to overdoing his flaws, he usually came off as a demoted spoiled brat.

Even the precious season long storyline that was almost the sole purpose of the show was a little fuzzy. It sought to intertwine the Sentinel plot with the Dark Phoenix plot, when none of them had anything to do with the other. They both simply came to a head around the same time. The Sentinel plot was what drove most of the series; Dark Phoenix seemed to come into focus just because the producers were nervous about their finale relying on robots, so they figured to go with a classic. As such you had Master Mold basically being dispatched with by 2/3rds in while the Phoenix plot came to the fore suddenly over about 4-5 episodes. True, the Future Team fought her, but they're in the future; it was the past that mattered. Magneto led the Sentinels at the end, but that was mostly to keep everyone busy with explosions. What, I wasn't supposed to notice?

WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN was a frustrating show. Like a lot of the Kyle/Yost/Johnson collaborations, it mixed moments of brilliance in with moments of mediocrity or sheer incompetence or wasted potential. There were moments when it captivated you, and moments when you wanted to throw up your hands and give up on it. If you were a fan of Wolverine and adult X-Men and care more about action and plot than characters, consistency or sense, it was a fine show. To use a sports cliche, it wasn't a complete game. It wasn't the sum of it's parts. It often distracted itself with mistaking the trees for the forest, and working on making pretty trees while missing the grander point. I suppose over-ambition is one way to put it. In retrospect some could say this show played out very much like a first season, and a second could have taken this experience to iron out the flaws better. But of course, now we'll never know, and it has to stand alone.

Although I will tear my hair out of a third show teases me with Colossus and then does absolutely nothing with him.
 
I agree the problem with this show is that its too ambitious especially with its story telling ,but I would rather have an over ambitious show than your average alien or villain of the week we got in the 90s show,also people saying that the show was all about Logan,yes it was but he only had four episodes
 
WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN was a frustrating show. Like a lot of the Kyle/Yost/Johnson collaborations, it mixed moments of brilliance in with moments of mediocrity or sheer incompetence or wasted potential. There were moments when it captivated you, and moments when you wanted to throw up your hands and give up on it.
Listening to some of the audio commentaries of this series as well as Hulk Vs., it's hard not to get the impression that these guys are like that group of best friends in school who, when confronted with a class project, will always get together because they're friends, yet they're so busy goofing around & having fun with each other that their work suffers. This series would have benefitted from a little more discipline on their part.

I guess now at least we don't have to watch the Spider-Man 3 style soap opera that probably would have occured once Emma Frost came back from the dead, and the next series will be free to just open with Scott already being with Emma.
 
Listening to some of the audio commentaries of this series as well as Hulk Vs., it's hard not to get the impression that these guys are like that group of best friends in school who, when confronted with a class project, will always get together because they're friends, yet they're so busy goofing around & having fun with each other that their work suffers. This series would have benefitted from a little more discipline on their part.

I guess now at least we don't have to watch the Spider-Man 3 style soap opera that probably would have occured once Emma Frost came back from the dead, and the next series will be free to just open with Scott already being with Emma.

I haven't listened to any commentaries for W&TXM. Usually, Kyle & Yost were entertaining in commentaries. They all get along at least. I do think sometimes they need to focus and prioritize better, or make sure the product reflects their intentions.

I wouldn't have minded some soap opera in Season 2 if it was handled well.

Kyle's working on films now, so Yost is more in charge of the story editing with Josh Fine on production.
 
There was nothing really wrong with how the show was written except that fans have their pet favorites and let their personal biases get in the way. The only problem was that the creators didn't get to finish the story they were telling.
 
Agreed, Vile. This show was great. And I'm saying this as a DIE HARD Jean Grey fan, and adamant hater of Wolverine as a character.

The fact that Jean was MIA and Logan was the leader didn't change the fact that is was a fantastic series. And my immense enjoyment of it was not hindered.
 
It was okay, but it did feel like they tried to squeeze in way too much. And the rumors about the second season trying to bring in both AoA and HoM pretty much proves that.
 
Rumors proving something that didn't happen. :up:
 
Okay, maybe not rumors, but the creators actually saying they were going to do that. My bad. Point still stands. Going to two alternate realities after putting so much focus on the future crap in the first season? Yeah thats terrible. Why not try and flesh out the current stuff a bit better.

Nice attempt though.
 
To be fair, the desire to adapt AGE OF APOCALYPSE and HOUSE OF M could also have been to be able to translate alternate universes that were "new" to comics or hadn't been covered in a previous X-Men cartoon. The 90's show in the two parter, "One Man's Worth" did a poor man's version of AOA, but it wasn't the same. Part of the objective of W&TXM, I believe, was to animate a lot of the newer characters who'd popped up within the last ten years and not seen animation yet.

Which, of course, could always lead us back to a main criticism of the show that myself and Panthro had, and that was being overly ambitious and a tad unfocused. It wanted to do everything and anything while also doing a set story arc and so on with a defined cast. To be honest, my heart was not beating with a desire for HOUSE OF M, although that did involve Wanda & Pietro heavily, and thus I can see the desire. The issue of the first season wasn't the focus on the future stuff, but the fact that despite all the hoopla about Wolverine being "in charge", he wasn't; Xavier still called the shots even though he was comatose in the present via time travel Zordon moments. Ideally, a second season would have gotten rid of Xavier or at least made him incapable of time-travel communications and thus Logan REALLY would have had to lead the team alone, or Cyclops or Storm could have stepped up to aid him, or so on.

Admittedly, the "fix the awful future by fixing the present" angle is fine for a first season, but repeating it would not have been ideal without some tweaks. But, mainly, I was looking forward to Colossus and seeing how or if the quality of the writing improved. That was the first season's main failing. The rest of the talent was there, but the writing team just seemed inconsistent to me. It is unfortunate that the first season will, for now, have to stand alone, but it is what it is. 26 episodes is the average for Marvel TV shows these days, at least before this year.
 
Again we don't really know the scope or length of that storyline since we didn't get to see it come to fruition.
 
Either way, I was disappointed that that was the direction they wanted to take it in.

I think there was enough potential in the present with the characters they have to produce enough development for them without resorting to a couple more alternate realities, especially after the possible future was one of the main points of the first season.

Which was my point. It just seemed like they were cramming in cameo after cameo to get as many characters animated as possible. And it didn't seem like it was going to change either.

I'd prefer if the next show, whenever that may be, dwindled the cast down a bit.
 
Well, technically the next X-Men show will be the X-MEN ANIME that is written by Warren Ellis and animated by Madhouse for G4. It will be 12 episodes long, so roughly one season's worth of episodes, at least during the Kid's WB/FoxKids era. I imagine it will feature the Astonishing X-Men that Ellis has written in the comics for a while, which is a stream lined cast: Cyclops, Emma Frost, Wolverine, Beast, Storm, and Armor (who has been confirmed in a blurb about the series). I would be very surprised if Ellis had any other X-Men on that roster. He took over ASTONISHING X-MEN after Joss Whedon's run and quickly dumped Colossus, Brand, and Lockheed from the line up; to be fair, the latter two and Beast would pop up immediately in SWORD, which was canceled after six issues. His AXM issues have come out slowly, and I do wonder if work on writing the anime is part of why (writing for animation is done before any recording or animation is done, often a year earlier at least). But, he's been consistent about that line-up.
 
Didn't Brand come back in the organic sentinels/Brood storyline?
 
Possibly. I didn't read the Ellis run. Brand was/is Beast's girlfriend so it wouldn't have been surprising for her to appear from time to time, or whenever Ellis wanted to involve SWORD. AXM was usually the title where the X-Men were more likely to fight aliens for much of it's run. I've never cared for Brand as a character, personally.
 
There was nothing really wrong with how the show was written except that fans have their pet favorites and let their personal biases get in the way. The only problem was that the creators didn't get to finish the story they were telling.
Hey man, I don't hate Wolverine, I just didn't like the show. Isn't that possible too?
 
I'm still convinced that this was by far the best X-Men animated series to date.
 
The last two seasons of the 90's show were terrible, though..

It loses big consistency points there..
 

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