Thor's return?

[Darthphere]

Well the thing about that is.. well.... he kinda doesnt. I'm not saying there isnt a place for him, but in a world thats a majority of science accidents and relatively low level fighters, where do you put a literal god who could take out the Man of Steel himself? Sure he's one of the key Avenger members, but what does it tell you that he constantly had to be written at a fraction of his abilities to tell a decent story? Personally, he always felt somewhat out of place in most stories not taking place in his own title.

But theres a place for The Sentry on New Avengers.


Damn Joey Q.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Right, because the Sentry's fitting right in among the New Avengers without being powered down at all. Oh, wait... Depowering is going to happen to any character who's stuck on a team with other characters who are vastly less powerful than he is. It's not unique to Thor and it has nothing to do with the fact that he's a god.

Edit: Damn you and your quick fingers, Phere!

 

[MyPokerShirt]

key difference is sentry has a major weakness in his psychological problems. they may be overused so he can be conveniently left out for smaller fights, but at least that makes more sense than just writing in a weak thor.

i just think team books are very hard to write. they never did get spider-man right..

 

[Darthphere]

I just find it odd as you mentioned before that thor had been written 30 years perfectly into the MU but all of a sudden all options had been exhausted.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

key difference is sentry has a major weakness in his psychological problems. they may be overused so he can be conveniently left out for smaller fights, but at least that makes more sense than just writing in a weak thor.

i just think team books are very hard to write. they never did get spider-man right..

I don't buy that. Thor can be given adequate challenges without watering him down. Ultron Unlimited wasn't too bad as far as Thor's power level goes. Stack hundreds of adamantium-plated Ultrons against the Avengers and even Thor would have some trouble.

 

[MyPokerShirt]

Mike Oeming wrote the final arc of Thor's series. As far as I know, sales on Thor were quite healthy--healthier, in fact, than Captain America and Iron Man, both of which were only canceled to be revived in new series, with new #1 issues that would generate interest, a short time later. Based on Joe Q's comments and the fact that Thor's sales weren't low, the only reason I can think of that his series was canceled is because no one really knew what to do with him. Joe Q mentioned on several occasions that Thor didn't "fit" in the Marvel universe (which we all know is utter trash, since he fit just fine for 30 years).

But I'm not bitter.

Thor doesnt fit if you look at it. the basis of everything on science and magic not being too popular nowadays, to have a god seems a bit silly, but Thor's a great character.Marvel needs him.

SO, um... Captain America is officially on volume 4 now? huh. there must be a thousand odd cap stories out there somewhere (including war time stories, of course).

 

[jaydawg]

But the thing about Sentry is he doesnt do anything in New Avengers. And yes, it makes even less sense that a guy who had the Hulk as his sidekick is on a team full of low level street fighters.

 

[Darthphere]

Volume 5.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Thor doesnt fit if you look at it. the basis of everything on science and magic not being too popular nowadays, to have a god seems a bit silly, but Thor's a great character.Marvel needs him.

Magic's not popular? As Dread pointed out, Harry Potter, The Lord of the Rings, Conan, the Spectre, and lots of other magic-related stuff that's selling well right now would beg to differ.

 

[MyPokerShirt]

I don't buy that. Thor can be given adequate challenges without watering him down. Ultron Unlimited wasn't too bad as far as Thor's power level goes. Stack hundreds of adamantium-plated Ultrons against the Avengers and even Thor would have some trouble.

I hope you're not serious. Yeah the avengers are fine as a force, we can find them a challenge -- just give them hundreds of Ultrons.lol.
darth, above^ it seems as if you're talking to me. when did i say all options were exhausted? sentry just makes more sense in a big team. easier to find challenges.

 

[Darthphere]

I hope you're not serious. Yeah the avengers are fine as a force, we can find them a challenge -- just give them hundreds of Ultrons.lol.
darth, above^ it seems as if you're talking to me. when did i say all options were exhausted? sentry just makes more sense in a big team. easier to find challenges.

No, thats what Joey Q said about Thor, that pretty much there werent anymore stories to be told.

 

[MyPokerShirt]

Magic's not popular? As Dread pointed out, Harry Potter, The Lord of the Rings, Conan, the Spectre, and lots of other magic-related stuff that's selling well right now would beg to differ.

How can you compare a kids book, a DC comics character and well established literature with the marvel universe today. In marvel and many comics, but marvel inparticular, science is favoured over magic by fans and writers. easier to relate to etc.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Bull****. 1) Harry Potter is read by all ages. Ask the adult celebrities who go on talk shows and talk about how much they love it all the time. 2) There are creators out there who relate just fine to magic, and there are fans who do the same. I know because Bill Willingham is writing brilliant magic-related comics for DC and I'm one of the fans who relates well to magic.

But the thing about Sentry is he doesnt do anything in New Avengers. And yes, it makes even less sense that a guy who had the Hulk as his sidekick is on a team full of low level street fighters.

Exactly. If Joe Q doesn't like Thor, that's fine. He screwed Speedball because he didn't like him. I can deal with him doing the same to Thor. But I hate that he has the audacity to imply that a character who's been a cornerstone of the Marvel community for decades suddenly doesn't fit. Gee, you think maybe that's because he's been giving the entire Marvel publishing roster tunnel-vision with about 90% street-level crap and the odd cosmic or sci-fi or fantasy title here and there, rather than some inherent flaw in the character that needs to be "fixed"?

 

[MyPokerShirt]

No, thats what Joey Q said about Thor, that pretty much there werent anymore stories to be told.

Oh ok. yeah he's a jackass. but we know that.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I hope you're not serious. Yeah the avengers are fine as a force, we can find them a challenge -- just give them hundreds of Ultrons.lol.
darth, above^ it seems as if you're talking to me. when did i say all options were exhausted? sentry just makes more sense in a big team. easier to find challenges.

Superior numbers is as valid a challenge as any. I'm not saying that's what should be done every time, but there are oodles of major challenges out there for all the characters. When the Avengers fight the Squadron Supreme, for example, they'd be pretty well ****ed without Thor there to counter Hyperion before the Sentry came along. People like Graviton and Count Nefaria were even more powerful than Thor himself, and the Avengers found ways to beat them. The Defenders regularly face ridiculously powerful juggernauts; why not borrow a villain or two from them for Thor? And, of course, there's the fact that the Avengers formed in the first place to fight Loki.

 

[MyPokerShirt]

yeah but they can't keep finding people strong enough.In real life there would be the odd easy fight, heck with thor LOTS of easy fights, hence the bad writing playing down his powers. i dont think you get that he's a friggin god!

As to the harry potter/ spectre thing i AGAIN dont see the relevance. there isnt a marvel character based on magic that can hold an ongoing series. unless we include thor of course...
and since when was spectre a big hitter. just cos YOU like the book doesnt mean its at all popular. look at ultimates, thats where Marvel's been headed for a while -- minimum magic, maximum realism. I like it, not saying you have to and im also not saying its right for marvel comics.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Why wouldn't we include Thor?

Spectre's current series came in at #32 in May's sales numbers. That's pretty damn good since, according to you, magic titles don't sell. Marvel's going for minimum magic and maximum realism because that's what Joe Q wants. Other series, including magic-based ones, sell just fine. Look at Fables, which is critically acclaimed and in the top 100. Conan, a fantasy-based series with sorcery and magic: number 75. Red Sonja, another fantasy series in the vein of Conan: number 73. There is a market for these types of titles if they've got good creators and stories and their fair share of marketing pushes. To paraphrase... oh, someone... "just cos YOU don't like the book doesn't mean it's not popular."

As for power, the fact that Thor's a "friggin god" doesn't matter. The Eternals have a few members who are a match for Thor. The Silver Surfer's a match for Thor. Thor's also gotten his ass kicked on numerous occasions by the Hulk. The Sentry would hand Thor his ass. Nova in his current state would probably kick Thor's ass, too. All of them have titles selling in the top 100, and Eternals kicked off with huge critical acclaim and mainstream media attention, to boot.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Its true that Godhood does not mean much in a world where meta-mortals exist. the only difference in many cases is length of life and only in so far that the Gods have been living for so long. But it does not show them in a light where they have vastly superior knowledge given that as is said above, they get readily beaten from time to time.

 

[Xofenroht]

People are acting as if there are no stories to be told with a Norse God with many millenia behind him. Seriously...in all that time, there are so many stories to be told. Not every story has to be "This is happening here and now". Even then, if people are worried about who Thor will fight...well...they shouldn't. If the roster gets old, bring in some new people. That's called GOOD storytelling.
Thor has so much potential, look at the way he was written in 1602. Take a look at all of the different myths out there. There are ALWAYS new stories to be told.
As far as fantasy comics go, we need more and by more I mean "More Really Good Ones". "Fables" is great, "Lucifer" was fantastic as was "Books of Magick: Life During Wartime". "The Sandman" will always stand at the top and should be looked to as an example of how to handle characters of immense power who seem to be ageless.
If everyone would stop focusing on who he'll fight and start focusing on what circumstances he may (as a [Norse] god) endure, we'd have a great title right now.

 

[Xofenroht]

Edit: Go Team Venture! (had to cover up a double post somehow)

 

[MyPokerShirt]

Why wouldn't we include Thor?

Spectre's current series came in at #32 in May's sales numbers. That's pretty damn good since, according to you, magic titles don't sell. Marvel's going for minimum magic and maximum realism because that's what Joe Q wants. Other series, including magic-based ones, sell just fine. Look at Fables, which is critically acclaimed and in the top 100. Conan, a fantasy-based series with sorcery and magic: number 75. Red Sonja, another fantasy series in the vein of Conan: number 73. There is a market for these types of titles if they've got good creators and stories and their fair share of marketing pushes. To paraphrase... oh, someone... "just cos YOU don't like the book doesn't mean it's not popular."

As for power, the fact that Thor's a "friggin god" doesn't matter. The Eternals have a few members who are a match for Thor. The Silver Surfer's a match for Thor. Thor's also gotten his ass kicked on numerous occasions by the Hulk. The Sentry would hand Thor his ass. Nova in his current state would probably kick Thor's ass, too. All of them have titles selling in the top 100, and Eternals kicked off with huge critical acclaim and mainstream media attention, to boot.

i dont know how u stubborn bastards always turn this into an argument. i was actually agreeing with you before. there are more story opportunities with a new character such as sentry than thor. sentry is also weaker than thor -- he has a clear weakness, so far more acceptable for him to lose than a norse god. BUT thor is a complex and important character. i just dont want to see him written below his capabilities for the sake of keeping him in the avengers.

look, whatever you say, marvel hasnt come up with a popular enough character in the magic genre of late. here's hoping doctor strange gets an ongoing. this was happening before JQ though and i think its rather convenient for you lot to forget this. DC is a much more magic-friendly universe and good on 'em, but my original point has been taken to offence yet again.

 

[Xofenroht]

u stubborn bastards

Only happens when you refer to us in such a way as said above.

Besides, Norse Gods aren't as powerful as the gods in other pantheons. A matter of fact they are much more mortal than say...a Greek god. So Thor is already powered down, because that's what happens with Norse Gods. There's nothing you can say to change that, because Thor is BIGGER than how you think he should be written or what you think all together.

You should avoid name calling.

 

[MyPokerShirt]

i get called all manner of things on here, so i think i'll keep the namecalling.

 

[jaydawg]

I don't think we could really apply 1602 Thor as a story for Thor. It works well because of the background behind it. If that version of Donald Blake showed up in the 616, a lot of people would be pissed, although I'd argue thats easily the best rendition of Thor ever.....

 

[hippy fascist]

i get called all manner of things on here, so i think i'll keep the namecalling.

Dude I'm totally new here so I don't the history of your rivalries but...

I agree with a lot of the things you say but the confrontational nature of the way you say them could be putting people off. I think you've got a lot to say and some of it's spot on but try a little give and take man. Sometimes people take it a bit far with YOU but, if you dig a hole you've gotta work twice as hard to get out. Just dial it back a bit and you'll do a lot better. I should know, I sell for living so getting people to like me is kind of my job!