BvS Three Non-Magical Origins for Wonder Woman, Better Than A Kryptonian Origin

[Llama_Shepherd]

Is this Zeus an alien / extra-dimensional being like Odin?

The Olympians were sort of like the Asgardians, now some just wander. He's not the mythological Zeus, by any stretch, like all deities in the DCU, who take the position "every religion is wrong".

 

[roach]

actually in the DC Comics he is the mythical Zeus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus_(DC_Comics)
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Zeus_(New_Earth)

 

[charl_huntress]

Rules don't take away the magical aspect...the rules people were asking for were.
Magic, in regards to Wonder Woman, has a set of rules. She is not a sorcerer, she doesn't cast spells. Her strength, flight , and invulnerability are from the gods.

I can't speak for everyone else's rules, but why do you object to making Themyscira/Olympus another dimension that is connected to earth? Why does that diminish its magic? Also, for a character like Zatanna, if they were to say the Homo Magi are half-alien, or founded by an alien. What would be so bad about that? Why would that diminish the magic of her character? Same goes for AM.

It depends on the actual explanation itself. If all you're going to do is to explain magic in a "realistic" and scientific context, then you might as well not include magic at all, as you have completely erased the spiritual aspect that is the foundation of the concept of magic. Science and magic are similar in certain aspects except for the basic fundamentals, Science is based on the physical, magic is based on the spiritual. You cannot use one to explain the other.

So your contention is for it to be "magic" there must be a spiritual component? And explaining any portion of the magic, so there's some logical, makes it no longer magic because true magic cannot be explained?

While I understand what you are saying, I just don't think all magic has to be that way. I would say in a world where there is pseudo-science to explain the presence of a flying man. It would be remiss to not explain "magic" even if it is mystically/spiritually based. Plus there's always room for things not to be explained, so there's still a bit of mystery and mysticism. It doesn't need to be explained in its entirety, but there should be some explanation. We don't live in a world where we wouldn't try to explain magic. So I don't expect MOS's world to just accept magic without even trying to explain it. That' doesn't seem like something that would happen in the "real" world.



p.s. NO FLYING FOR WONDY...... in this movie.

 

[roach]

I can't speak for everyone else's rules, but why do you object to making Themyscira/Olympus another dimension that is connected to earth? Why does that diminish its magic? Also, for a character like Zatanna, if they were to say the Homo Magi are half-alien, or founded by an alien. What would be so bad about that? Why would that diminish the magic of her character? Same goes for AM.

My issue with putting Themyscira in another dimension is that it is what Marvel did with Thor. I realize that people are already thinking they are copying but there is no need to. The way to do WW is by having her background be full mythological instead of doing it the same way Marvel did.
By making Zatanna a pseudo-science character she loses a lot of her villains...will the demons and others be from aliens too. How far do we go with the no magic-alien origins...is the wizard Shazam an alien? Does Billy Batson change because of a latent mutant ability? Is Dr Fate's helmet alien tech now? When WW is fighting Ares or Hades are they the actual entities or are the aliens thinking they are gods? Is Etrigan a mutant too instead of a demon?
Why can't Zatanna be from a magic race of humans?

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

Just to clarify, is the main reason people would prefer the Gods/Amazons to live in a parallel dimension that they don't buy that they would be able to stay hidden from the public otherwise?

 

[MrsKent26]

My issue with putting Themyscira in another dimension is that it is what Marvel did with Thor. I realize that people are already thinking they are copying but there is no need to. The way to do WW is by having her background be full mythological instead of doing it the same way Marvel did.
By making Zatanna a pseudo-science character she loses a lot of her villains...will the demons and others be from aliens too. How far do we go with the no magic-alien origins...is the wizard Shazam an alien? Does Billy Batson change because of a latent mutant ability? Is Dr Fate's helmet alien tech now? When WW is fighting Ares or Hades are they the actual entities or are the aliens thinking they are gods? Is Etrigan a mutant too instead of a demon?
Why can't Zatanna be from a magic race of humans?

All of those other characters might not be in this series. I realize that sucks for fans of them, but they might not include them.

 

[charl_huntress]

My issue with putting Themyscira in another dimension is that it is what Marvel did with Thor. I realize that people are already thinking they are copying but there is no need to. The way to do WW is by having her background be full mythological instead of doing it the same way Marvel did.
By making Zatanna a pseudo-science character she loses a lot of her villains...will the demons and others be from aliens too. How far do we go with the no magic-alien origins...is the wizard Shazam an alien? Does Billy Batson change because of a latent mutant ability? Is Dr Fate's helmet alien tech now? When WW is fighting Ares or Hades are they the actual entities or are the aliens thinking they are gods? Is Etrigan a mutant too instead of a demon?
Why can't Zatanna be from a magic race of humans?

While I understand your concerns about copying Marvel, the truth of the matter is there will not be a way to avoid being compared to Marvel. That's one reason I don't think Goyer or Snyder should be concerned about that. Plus there is bound to be some overlap anyway. Though, you do have a point about making everyone "aliens", but that's why I'm a fan of dimensions. Not every being needs to be an "alien" from another planet. I fully believe with healthy doses of movie logic there is a feasible way to explain Zatanna's villains and any other magic-based rogues without making them all aliens from another planet. Also, "gods" in another dimension can still be "gods". They don't have to lose any feature that makes them "gods". They just reside in a dimension outside of "normal" earth. It's like they still live in "heaven", "hell/hades" or whatever you want to call it, but it's not "here" on earth....if that makes sense.

I don't see how any of that really does away with magic.

Just to clarify, is the main reason people would prefer the Gods/Amazons to live in a parallel dimension that they don't buy that they would be able to stay hidden from the public otherwise?

No, that's not it for me at least. I just think placing them in another dimension allows for an easier blending of myth and reality. It simply provides greater layers for the story, and some rules for magic. I also don't like the idea of unfettered magic. It should be grounded in this universe...even if it is magic.

 

[Smashlilman]

Is this Zeus an alien / extra-dimensional being like Odin?

Here is the kicker. If Heaven is in another dimension from earth. Does that make (The Christian) GOD and extra-dimensional being/ alien.

 

[roach]

Just to clarify, is the main reason people would prefer the Gods/Amazons to live in a parallel dimension that they don't buy that they would be able to stay hidden from the public otherwise?

It's a magic hidden island.

 

[roach]

All of those other characters might not be in this series. I realize that sucks for fans of them, but they might not include them.

I realize that some may not appear (depending on if/when Justice League Dark is made). The point is if they decided to use them they would be painted into a corner.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

It's a magic hidden island.

Well it's not just Themyscira. There's also Mount Olympus, the underworld, the existence of souls, Gods who live in the real world but are never noticed for thousands of years, etc.

 

[roach]

While I understand your concerns about copying Marvel, the truth of the matter is there will not be a way to avoid being compared to Marvel. That's one reason I don't think Goyer or Snyder should be concerned about that. Plus there is bound to be some overlap anyway. Though, you do have a point about making everyone "aliens", but that's why I'm a fan of dimensions. Not every being needs to be an "alien" from another planet. I fully believe with healthy doses of movie logic there is a feasible way to explain Zatanna's villains and any other magic-based rogues without making them all aliens from another planet. Also, "gods" in another dimension can still be "gods". They don't have to lose any feature that makes them "gods". They just reside in a dimension outside of "normal" earth. It's like they still live in "heaven", "hell/hades" or whatever you want to call it, but it's not "here" on earth....if that makes sense.

Just because there is bound to be overlap doesn't mean they should create the overlap.

I don't see how any of that really does away with magic.

No, that's not it for me at least. I just think placing them in another dimension allows for an easier blending of myth and reality. It simply provides greater layers for the story, and some rules for magic. I also don't like the idea of unfettered magic. It should be grounded in this universe...even if it is magic.

No one is asking for unfettered magic. DC magic has rules. Having the Amazons be on an hidden island in the middle of the ocean gives them a greater incentive to check out Superman...They were almost killed. It's a better/closer connection to the events of Man of Steel. It now gives the amazons a real reason to send their champion to Man's world...to teach people to love instead of war...because it effects them now.

 

[roach]

Well it's not just Themyscira. There's also Mount Olympus, the underworld, the existence of souls, Gods who live in the real world but are never noticed for thousands of years, etc.

all hidden from humans by magic wards. Do it just like Harry Potter...magic exists in the real world and all these magic spot exist just that ungifted people can't see them.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

I agree, I'm just trying to clarify the argument people have against it.

 

[roach]

I agree, I'm just trying to clarify the argument people have against it.

I think it's because some people think of magic and they think of the most outrageous applications of magic when it doesn't have to be...especially since WW's powers...outside of the magic lasso aren't outlandishly magical.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Personally I have a hard time envisioning her (Amazons and magic) next to Batman in live action.

But, we'll see.

 

[charl_huntress]

Here is the kicker. If Heaven is in another dimension from earth. Does that make (The Christian) GOD and extra-dimensional being/ alien.

If they want to make it that way in the movie then I think that's fine.

Just because there is bound to be overlap doesn't mean they should create the overlap. No one is asking for unfettered magic. DC magic has rules. Having the Amazons be on an hidden island in the middle of the ocean gives them a greater incentive to check out Superman...They were almost killed. It's a better/closer connection to the events of Man of Steel. It now gives the amazons a real reason to send their champion to Man's world...to teach people to love instead of war...because it effects them now.

You seem stuck on DC not being compared to Marvel when there is no way to avoid that even if there is no overlap. My point is don't do away with what could be potentially be great story ideas just because it's too much like Marvel. That's an infantile and foolish way to approach any story when there are other things that can be done to differentiate the two approaches.

The PZ disturbance gives them just as good a reason as the one you mentioned. The Amazons don't have to be "on" earth per se to have been affected if they are in a dimension that is connected to earth. They could still have reason to send an emissary, and there are other ways this can be done without them being on earth.

I see your point, but you must also see it can be done differently. So it's not a one-way only approach, and there is nothing wrong with it being done differently as long as the common themes are still kept.

 

[Bathead]

Try telling that to the thousands of religious scientists around the globe.

Irrelevant to the topic at hand. I'm talking about the fictional DC universe.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

actually in the DC Comics he is the mythical Zeus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus_(DC_Comics)
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Zeus_(New_Earth)

No he's not, he's similar. The mythical Zeus was born from Gaia (the Earth), who was born from Chaos (greek "Genesis" if you will).

That's not what happened in the DCU.

EDIT- In fact the DC wikipedia page you linked to specifies that DC's Zeus is an adaptation of the mythical character and then refers you to the wikipedia article on the mythical character.

Irrelevant to the topic at hand. I'm talking about the fictional DC universe.

The topic at hand is not about the DCU, but the cinematic one being crafted.

 

[-Nam rorriM-]

What would you say if they wrote Wonder Woman and them in like those Chinese clay statues? Found in a tomb and on display in a museum? Have a myth where the gods sealed them away for when earth was threatened. I know MOS had earth being threatend by zod but maybe whatever is coming is the real threat. It would certainly please me, because WW will be seen as needed rather than just simply there. Plus the American museum could have them on loan at the time. Have only WW see the gods for being their champion.

 

[-Nam rorriM-]

If love a scene where the gods gift her the weapons and armor. That would be cool

 

[roach]

No he's not, he's similar. The mythical Zeus was born from Gaia (the Earth), who was born from Chaos (greek "Genesis" if you will).

That's not what happened in the DCU.

EDIT- In fact the DC wikipedia page you linked to specifies that DC's Zeus is an adaptation of the mythical character and then refers you to the wikipedia article on the mythical character.

The note means that this is the DC version of that character. They are meant to be the same character.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus_(DC_Comics)
Zeus' origins and early history mostly conform to the way they are presented in classical mythology. He is a child of the Titans Cronus and Rhea and leader of the twelve Olympian Gods. During a war between the Titans and Olympians, Zeus slays his father and assumes his place as King of the Gods, ruling from Mount Olympus with his sister-wife Hera. He is the father of numerous gods and heroes, the most famous being Heracles.

You may want to brush up on your mythology. Zeus is the child of Cronus and Rhea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus
Zeus is the child of Cronus and Rhea, and the youngest of his siblings.

 

[roach]

You seem stuck on DC not being compared to Marvel when there is no way to avoid that even if there is no overlap. My point is don't do away with what could be potentially be great story ideas just because it's too much like Marvel. That's an infantile and foolish way to approach any story when there are other things that can be done to differentiate the two approaches.

Or they could not change a truly original origin to one the very closely mimics movie Thor's.

The PZ disturbance gives them just as good a reason as the one you mentioned. The Amazons don't have to be "on" earth per se to have been affected if they are in a dimension that is connected to earth. They could still have reason to send an emissary, and there are other ways this can be done without them being on earth.

No it gives them a better reason. "Checking out a disturbance on Earth" is not as powerful a reason as "Checking out Superman because the events of MOS almost killed us". It stronger and relatable. They kept to themselves and are hidden from man. The world almost was destroyed...a first in human history. Man's world is now affecting their world and they aren't going to take it. They send their champion to prevent things like that from happening. It is a very human trait to want to protect your family and your home. It gives WW a very understandable and credible reason for coming to man's world to 'fix' things.

I see your point, but you must also see it can be done differently. So it's not a one-way only approach, and there is nothing wrong with it being done differently as long as the common themes are still kept.

I am not saying my way is the only way. They are probably coming up with a different way to do it. I see threads that have been created in MOS and can see a way to do WW while being respectful to her origin and character while maintaining the tone of the previous movie. I am just not in favor of taking away aspects of WW that make her truly unique (a superhero powered by gods).

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

The note means that this is the DC version of that character. They are meant to be the same character.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus_(DC_Comics)
Zeus' origins and early history mostly conform to the way they are presented in classical mythology. He is a child of the Titans Cronus and Rhea and leader of the twelve Olympian Gods. During a war between the Titans and Olympians, Zeus slays his father and assumes his place as King of the Gods, ruling from Mount Olympus with his sister-wife Hera. He is the father of numerous gods and heroes, the most famous being Heracles.

You see that part where it says "mostly" in regards to his backstory in comparison to classic mythology? That's the important word, if they were the same it would say "exactly", not "mostly".

Also, how can he be the same character when the canonical greek mythology (of our world) is wrong in the DCU? The two are contradictory, because regardless of which Titan Zeus was born of, they in turn, were born of Chaos (which isn't true in the DCU).

 

[roach]

You see that part where it says "mostly" in regards to his backstory in comparison to classic mythology? That's the important word, if they were the same it would say "exactly", not "mostly".

It's mostly because as with any character they become more fleshed out as time goes on. Example: Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter. He is supposed to be the same Lincoln as the real one just with more added to the backstory.

Also, how can he be the same character when the canonical greek mythology (of our world) is wrong in the DCU? The two are contradictory, because regardless of which Titan Zeus was born of, they in turn, were born of Chaos (which isn't true in the DCU).

The Zeus that is in the DC comics is supposed to be the Zeus from greek myth...they are supposed to be the same character. He is not an alien posing as Zeus.