BvS Three Non-Magical Origins for Wonder Woman, Better Than A Kryptonian Origin

[Llama_Shepherd]

It's mostly because as with any character they become more fleshed out as time goes on. Example: Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter. He is supposed to be the same Lincoln as the real one just with more added to the backstory.

But a world where Abraham Lincoln is a vampire hunter means it doesn't take place in this world.

The Zeus that is in the DC comics is supposed to be the Zeus from greek myth...they are supposed to be the same character. He is not an alien posing as Zeus.

I agree he's supposed to be the mythological Zeus, in that he is the truth behind the myth. But in the DCU, every religion is wrong.

 

[roach]

But a world where Abraham Lincoln is a vampire hunter means it doesn't take place in this world.
But it's supposed to take place in our world...he is the reason why there are no vampires...and slavery


I agree he's supposed to be the mythological Zeus, in that he is the truth behind the myth. But in the DCU, every religion is wrong.

or is every religion right...a guardian angel Zauriel did join the Justice League

 

[roach]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presence_(DC_Comics)

The religious cosmology of the DC Universe is complex with many pantheons of deities co-existing alongside each other. It involves elements from multiple religions, mythologies, and modern created concepts such as the Endless. It is not always clear how the Abrahamic God fits into this — for example, one particular Wonder Woman storyline by Eric Luke featured the Greek Titans fighting Judeo-Christian angels and Hindu Gods. According to writer Greg Rucka in an interview about his Final Crisis: Revelations miniseries, "The sort of unspoken rule in the DCU is that God sits above all others. "

 

[Lord]

Personally I have a hard time envisioning her (Amazons and magic) next to Batman in live action.

But, we'll see.

And you don't have a hard time envisioning a superpowered human looking alien, who shots ray beam from his eyes, next to Batman?

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

or is every religion right...a guardian angel Zauriel did join the Justice League

No, they're all wrong. The deities can exist with the religion being wrong. I mean, actually going through the cosmological timeline of the DCU in relation to the deities and such would be contradictory to every religion.

 

[roach]

No, they're all wrong. The deities can exist with the religion being wrong. I mean, actually going through the cosmological timeline of the DCU in relation to the deities and such would be contradictory to every religion.

it's all right

 

[Smashlilman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presence_(DC_Comics)

The religious cosmology of the DC Universe is complex with many pantheons of deities co-existing alongside each other. It involves elements from multiple religions, mythologies, and modern created concepts such as the Endless. It is not always clear how the Abrahamic God fits into this — for example, one particular Wonder Woman storyline by Eric Luke featured the Greek Titans fighting Judeo-Christian angels and Hindu Gods. According to writer Greg Rucka in an interview about his Final Crisis: Revelations miniseries, "The sort of unspoken rule in the DCU is that God sits above all others. "

It's kind of like how ancient Jews viewed god. All gods exist but there God is there god and he's is more powerful than the rest. The ten commandments say you can have no gods before God but it doesn't say that the other gods aren't real. They accepted the Roman and Egyptian gods but Held there God above them.

 

[roach]

It's kind of like how ancient Jews viewed god. All gods exist but there God is there god and he's more powerful than the rest. The ten commandments say you can have no gods before God but it doesn't say that the other gods aren't real.

and he didn't say there couldn't be any gods after himt:t:t:

 

[jmc]

You seem stuck on DC not being compared to Marvel when there is no way to avoid that even if there is no overlap. My point is don't do away with what could be potentially be great story ideas just because it's too much like Marvel. That's an infantile and foolish way to approach any story when there are other things that can be done to differentiate the two approaches.

The PZ disturbance gives them just as good a reason as the one you mentioned. The Amazons don't have to be "on" earth per se to have been affected if they are in a dimension that is connected to earth. They could still have reason to send an emissary, and there are other ways this can be done without them being on earth.

I see your point, but you must also see it can be done differently. So it's not a one-way only approach, and there is nothing wrong with it being done differently as long as the common themes are still kept.

I don't see the hang up over 'copying' Marvel either, I mean they've pinched more of their fair share of Chris Nolan in their movies, it just goes with the territory that the studios influence each other. If an idea works and it comes from Marvel - who cares?

 

[DA_Champion]

I don't see the hang up over 'copying' Marvel either, I mean they've pinched more of their fair share of Chris Nolan in their movies, it just goes with the territory that the studios influence each other. If an idea works and it comes from Marvel - who cares?

Have they really pinched that much off Nolan?

I see the MCU as following the template of the Donner films.

The Thor 2 directors talks a lot about Nolan, they have "Dark" in the title of the movie, but I didn't see much of Nolan in there.

 

[roach]

I don't see the hang up over 'copying' Marvel either, I mean they've pinched more of their fair share of Chris Nolan in their movies, it just goes with the territory that the studios influence each other. If an idea works and it comes from Marvel - who cares?

Mimicking a tone is a bit different than copying ideas.

 

[DA_Champion]

all hidden from humans by magic wards. Do it just like Harry Potter...magic exists in the real world and all these magic spot exist just that ungifted people can't see them.

Which is actually indistinguishable from what MoS is already did, as it assumed a world, a universe, with different physical laws.

 

[jmc]

Mimicking a tone is a bit different than copying ideas.

Iron Man did it, almost blatantly at times. There are 3 films with interrogation scenes as well. Lets not make out Marvel haven't used elements from Nolan's Batman.

 

[Vaibow]

how about the pod that crashed 18,000 years ago, the surviving occupant managed to open up a portal, that portal is hidden behind a water fall on a random island - an island lost to man. That portal opens up to a world known as... Themyscira

Where the men of that world go through the portal to work, trade, the women left to fend for themselves.

 

[DA_Champion]

I actually *do not like* how Thor approached magic, that it's simply advanced alien technology. That makes the world of Thor incoherent. If the ASgardians used magic it would kind of make sense for their cities to be based on anachronistic architecture, and also their armour. But actually, they have faster-than-light travel, laser cannons, but they live in buildings built on Greco-Roman engineering principles and fight with swords. The replacement of magic with technology undermines the entire universe.

There's also the issue of the universe having "9 realms" and a "5,000 year cycle". That works well if there is magic in the world of Thor, but if there is simply advanced technology then that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. There are far, far, far more than 9 habitable planets in the universe, no doubt.

 

[DA_Champion]

Iron Man did it, almost blatantly at times. There are 3 films with interrogation scenes as well. Lets not make out Marvel haven't used elements from Nolan's Batman.

To some extent every single movie is a pastiche of other works that have come before so it, but sometimes copying is more blatant.

When people say that Avatar copied Dances with Wolves, they are saying that Avatar is plagiarism, but Dances with Wolves is original. Is that fair? No, but that's how it goes. DC should try and gauge what kind of copying might be a no-go.

ETA: But thank you for showing me another layer of The Avengers that I had missed. I had previously mostly seen it as a pastiche of previous Whedon works.

 

[jmc]

To some extent every single movie is a pastiche of other works that have come before so it, but sometimes copying is more blatant.

When people say that Avatar copied Dances with Wolves, they are saying that Avatar is plagiarism, but Dances with Wolves is original. Is that fair? No, but that's how it goes. DC should try and gauge what kind of copying might be a no-go.

ETA: But thank you for showing me another layer of The Avengers that I had missed. I had previously mostly seen it as a pastiche of previous Whedon works.

That's kinda my point, I'm saying I don't get this desire from fans for WB not to borrow ideas and concepts from Marvel when Marvel has already done the same to WB. MoS is already a completely different tone to anything in the MCU, I don't get this desire for purity.

 

[DA_Champion]

That's kinda my point, I'm saying I don't get this desire from fans for WB not to borrow ideas and concepts from Marvel when Marvel has already done the same to WB. MoS is already a completely different tone to anything in the MCU, I don't get this desire for purity.

I personally don't want them to copy Thor because I think it will lead to an inferior product, and due to its incoherence will undermine the tone of MoS' "realism".

However, in addition, a lot of people have invested energy into arguing that DC is superior to Marvel and vice versa. Cross-pollination of plot points would undermine these arguments and the energies "invested" into developing them.

 

[dnno1]

What's so hard with using the New 52 origin? If people will flock to Thor, they wouldn't bat an eyelash at Wonder Woman being Zeus's daughter.

It's really up to the writer/director. It would be their take on the character. Certain elements (like dialogue, dramatic construction, original scenes, characterization of character relationships, et. al.) have to be their for them to get credit for the film, so that might be the motive to deviate from the source material.

 

[charl_huntress]

Or they could not change a truly original origin to one the very closely mimics movie Thor's.

If changing the origin helps to facilitate a better story it should not be avoided because it's like Thor. If anything they should work to make their approach better so that similarity is the last thing anyone is thinking about, and please don't say that can't be done because it's been done in movies all the time.

No it gives them a better reason. "Checking out a disturbance on Earth" is not as powerful a reason as "Checking out Superman because the events of MOS almost killed us". It stronger and relatable. They kept to themselves and are hidden from man. The world almost was destroyed...a first in human history. Man's world is now affecting their world and they aren't going to take it. They send their champion to prevent things like that from happening. It is a very human trait to want to protect your family and your home. It gives WW a very understandable and credible reason for coming to man's world to 'fix' things.

They can still do each of those things you mentioned if they are in another dimension. It's not outside the realm of movie logic to incorporate the PZ disturbance as a threat to Themyscira, and Superman as someone who may be a continued threat. You are fixated on keeping Themyscira on earth and are ignoring the clear possibilities that can easily be accomplished if it were another dimension. It's not like any of the things you are mentioning can only be accomplished by them being on earth, and there are a lot of benefits of having the Themyscira as another dimension.

I am not saying my way is the only way. They are probably coming up with a different way to do it. I see threads that have been created in MOS and can see a way to do WW while being respectful to her origin and character while maintaining the tone of the previous movie. I am just not in favor of taking away aspects of WW that make her truly unique (a superhero powered by gods).

No, you're not saying your way is the only way... You just think your way is the best way. But like I said, there is a way to keep the spirit of Wondy's character and all the things you and others like while also providing some rules and layers for magic. This notion that magic can't be explained really doesn't make much sense to me.

I personally don't want them to copy Thor because I think it will lead to an inferior product, and due to its incoherence will undermine the tone of MoS' "realism".

Why?

I don't see the hang up over 'copying' Marvel either, I mean they've pinched more of their fair share of Chris Nolan in their movies, it just goes with the territory that the studios influence each other. If an idea works and it comes from Marvel - who cares?

It all comes down to execution. Lots of story tellers and filmmakers have the same ideas, but the difference always lies in the execution.

 

[DA_Champion]

Huntress, I explained my critique of Thor's approach, of replacing magic with technology and pretending that makes sense, in post #553.

 

[charl_huntress]

I actually *do not like* how Thor approached magic, that it's simply advanced alien technology. That makes the world of Thor incoherent. If the ASgardians used magic it would kind of make sense for their cities to be based on anachronistic architecture, and also their armour. But actually, they have faster-than-light travel, laser cannons, but they live in buildings built on Greco-Roman engineering principles and fight with swords. The replacement of magic with technology undermines the entire universe.

There's also the issue of the universe having "9 realms" and a "5,000 year cycle". That works well if there is magic in the world of Thor, but if there is simply advanced technology then that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. There are far, far, far more than 9 habitable planets in the universe, no doubt.

Soooo... you're basically saying you didn't like how it was done in Thor? Not being familiar with Marvel, I really fail to see how any of the things you mentioned would be applicable to Wondy and Themyscira. Since the dimensions are/were connected some of the architecture and similarity would make sense. But again...sounds like you just didn't like it in Thor.

 

[DA_Champion]

Soooo... you're basically saying you didn't like how it was done in Thor? Not being familiar with Marvel, I really fail to see how any of the things you mentioned would be applicable to Wondy and Themyscira. Since the dimensions are/were connected some of the architecture and similarity would make sense. But again...sounds like you just didn't like it in Thor.

Themyscira is supposed to have a Greco-Roman look, which makes sense if they are Greek gods. If they're aliens with advanced technology, it does not make sense at all.

But returning to the example of Thor ... how does the universe having 9 realms and a 5,000 year cycle make sense from the perspective of "technology" instead of "magic"?

 

[Smashlilman]

Themyscira is supposed to have a Greco-Roman look, which makes sense if they are Greek gods. If they're aliens with advanced technology, it does not make sense at all.

But returning to the example of Thor ... how does the universe having 9 realms and a 5,000 year cycle make sense from the perspective of "technology" instead of "magic"?

If they are ancient aliens then the Greeks would just be mimicking their look and not the other way around.

I'm not for ancient aliens by the way.

 

[DA_Champion]

If they are ancient aliens then the Greeks would just be mimicking their look and not the other way around.

I'm not for ancient aliens by the way.

We can joke about it but then we just sound as dumb as Giorgio A. Tsoukalos / Zachary Sitchin.

Nothing in Thor 2 made sense in part or in whole because they turned magic into technology.