Tim Story MySpace Blog updated

[Kelly]

ooops.....my bad

 

[Kelly]

Yeah, Jack Kirby and friends created some cool, out-there characters and ideas. I still don't consider it high art. I consider it pulp fiction.

I've just been coming at things from a movie-fan perspective.

I understand. The thing is, I *am* a comic fan, I've never thrown away a comic in my life, in fact, I have a few in in bags with special acid-free backboards. That doesn't stop me from thinking most of them a pulp fiction and were orginally meant to be read by kids and thrown away. Maybe Stan Lee, Jack Kirby and their ilk meant us to squirrel them away like treasure as we have done, but I just don't get that impression.

I respect that opinion, and I do enjoy reading the stuff. I just don't think most of it is high art, and I don't think most of it is important enough that the movies must stick to it, to the letter.

That's all I'm saying.

 

[highguard]

I understand. The thing is, I *am* a comic fan, I've never thrown away a comic in my life, in fact, I have a few in in bags with special acid-free backboards. That doesn't stop me from thinking most of them a pulp fiction and were orginally meant to be read by kids and thrown away. Maybe Stan Lee, Jack Kirby and their ilk meant us to squirrel them away like treasure as we have done, but I just don't get that impression.



I respect that opinion, and I do enjoy reading the stuff. I just don't think most of it is high art, and I don't think most of it is important enough that the movies must stick to it, to the letter. That's all I'm saying.

You know Sev old buddy, they say one man's trash is another man's treasure. i understand your view of comics, it is shared by many and sometimes that is all they are. However comics have been by their nature little capsules of stories that deal with good and evil, relationships and families everything that is the stuff of life.

It is true many of them have been and are forgetable but there have been stories that have captured the essence of what is important in this thing we call life.

I have read a lot of what is called classical literature, Great Expectations, Milton's Paradise Lost, To kill a Mockingbird and other great works of fiction.

This is my point and yes it is just an opinion. I find the themes in these works very similar. Comics just condense things due to their limited format. Now this was the thing that drove Jack Kirby and Siegel & Schuster, when they sat down to create characters and stories they did not think oh gee this is not important so let me throw any old stuff out there, they took their work seriously and you can see that in the characters which are making billions today.

I would say this there is nothing new under the sun, there are just different presentations and scenarios by which we experience what is the stuff of life.

I enjoyed comics because they presented conflicts and experiences in a visual format that I greatly love.

i enjoy movies because they take it to another level, but they the movies are just a different presentation of the same themes we experienced in the comic books when we were children.

That is why Horatio hates it that they tinker with the source so much and Carp is so passionate about the characters themselves, because ultimately these characters touched us in some form or fashion.

I see them as high art because i see the effort that went into creating these characters and the love so many have for them.

Deep down I feel the characters are not really about themselves but about us the consumers, they speak to us about things that swirl around in our conciousness. Themes about life and death, love and loss, pain and suffering, right and wrong, God and man.

Yes they are pulp fiction but to me they are also and can be High Art and often are.

When Jor El said "they can be a great people Kal El they only lack the light to show them the way" I know where that reference is coming from.

Comic Books drew on great themes and that has always been so.

Bryan Singer said this about his take on superman the character:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]"It celebrates that notion," says Bryan Singer of the parallels between 'Superman Returns' and Jesus Christ. "These stories are told in so many different ways. From Sunday School to pop culture...

"But if you're going to have lines like Marlon Brando saying, "I send them you - my only son." And they're being spoken with absolute seriousness, then when you carry it forward and you have him return after five years, face an immeasurable conflict and then... I mean, if you're going to tell that story, you've got to tell it all the way. You've got scourging at the pillar, the spear of destiny, death, resurrection - it's all there."

The creators are making these movies and they have to make money in order to be successful but they are based on stories that have been touched on in the comics.

I enjoyed Superman the movie becuase when I first saw it I was blown away because I realized that Donner took it seriously. It was not a cartoon (Corman should take note). I left that theater feeling uplifted.

I have read some comic books that reminded me that life is worth living because the writers took themselves seriously and gave everything they had.

I believe whatever you are doing you should give your best effort. Treat it as if it has value.

I see value in the comic books, in the writers and what they are trying to do.

Life in itself is worth something and anything you are priviliged to do is worthwhile because our talents are gifts that can bring joy to someone.

This is possible even with the comic books and maybe especially with comic books, the funnybooks are now templates for spectacles that the whole world is watching.

Brings a whole new meaning to turning 5 talents into ten. That is basically what has happened with Comic Books, somebody took them seriously and now they are the engines of immense monetary vehicles.

On that note I want to say thanks you to all the creators like Siegel and Schuster, Stan and Jack and people like Avi Arad. They understood the portential of these properties and sometimes took it seriously.

And look what we have today.


[/FONT]

 

[HoratioRome]

You know Sev old buddy, they say one man's trash is another man's treasure. i understand your view of comics, it is shared by many and sometimes that is all they are. However comics have been by their nature little capsules of stories that deal with good and evil, relationships and families everything that is the stuff of life.

It is true many of them have been and are forgetable but there have been stories that have captured the essence of what is important in this thing we call life.

I have read a lot of what is called classical literature, Great Expectations, Milton's Paradise Lost, To kill a Mockingbird and other great works of fiction.

This is my point and yes it is just an opinion. I find the themes in these works very similar. Comics just condense things due to their limited format. Now this was the thing that drove Jack Kirby and Siegel & Schuster, when they sat down to create characters and stories they did not think oh gee this is not important so let me throw any old stuff out there, they took their work seriously and you can see that in the characters which are making billions today.

I would say this there is nothing new under the sun, there are just different presentations and scenarios by which we experience what is the stuff of life.

I enjoyed comics because they presented conflicts and experiences in a visual format that I greatly love.

i enjoy movies because they take it to another level, but they the movies are just a different presentation of the same themes we experienced in the comic books when we were children.

That is why Horatio hates it that they tinker with the source so much and Carp is so passionate about the characters themselves, because ultimately these characters touched us in some form or fashion.

I see them as high art because i see the effort that went into creating these characters and the love so many have for them.

Deep down I feel the characters are not really about themselves but about us the consumers, they speak to us about things that swirl around in our conciousness. Themes about life and death, love and loss, pain and suffering, right and wrong, God and man.

Yes they are pulp fiction but to me they are also and can be High Art and often are.

When Jor El said "they can be a great people Kal El they only lack the light to show them the way" I know where that reference is coming from.

Comic Books drew on great themes and that has always been so.

Bryan Singer said this about his take on superman the character:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]"It celebrates that notion," says Bryan Singer of the parallels between 'Superman Returns' and Jesus Christ. "These stories are told in so many different ways. From Sunday School to pop culture...[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]"But if you're going to have lines like Marlon Brando saying, "I send them you - my only son." And they're being spoken with absolute seriousness, then when you carry it forward and you have him return after five years, face an immeasurable conflict and then... I mean, if you're going to tell that story, you've got to tell it all the way. You've got scourging at the pillar, the spear of destiny, death, resurrection - it's all there."[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]The creators are making these movies and they have to make money in order to be successful but they are based on stories that have been touched on in the comics.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]I enjoyed Superman the movie becuase when I first saw it I was blown away because I realized that Donner took it seriously. It was not a cartoon (Corman should take note). I left that theater feeling uplifted.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]I have read some comic books that reminded me that life is worth living because the writers took themselves seriously and gave everything they had.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]I believe whatever you are doing you should give your best effort. Treat it as if it has value.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]I see value in the comic books, in the writers and what they are trying to do.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Life in itself is worth something and anything you are priviliged to do is worthwhile because our talents are gifts that can bring joy to someone.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]This is possible even with the comic books and maybe especially with comic books, the funnybooks are now templates for spectacles that the whole world is watching.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Brings a whole new meaning to turning 5 talents into ten. That is basically what has happened with Comic Books, somebody took them seriously and now they are the engines of immense monetary vehicles.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]On that note I want to say thanks you to all the creators like Siegel and Schuster, Stan and Jack and people like Avi Arad. They understood the portential of these properties and sometimes took it seriously.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]And look what we have today.[/FONT]

well said (except for the Singer referencet: ).
bravo

 

[highguard]

^^ Yeah I just had to throw Singer in, I still don't get why SR was so dour but I think that Singer takes his work very seriously and he is never going to give you crap but Superman is also not exactly Batman or Xmen.

I hope he gets it right for the sequel and I am glad he is getting a shot at making it more action oriented and uplifting.

 

[HoratioRome]

I would like to add one other thing.
It is almost impossible to truly judge what is "high art" and what is "trash" or "pulp". As I'm sure you're aware sevarian, many artists and artworks that are considered to be GREAT masterpieces today, were thought of as trash during the period they were made.
shakespear was no "shakespear" in his own time.
The beatles were looked down by the establishement which now regards them as musical masters.
It is easy for someone to think of comics as disposable, immature, simplistic, childish, crap. Let's face it it isn't shakespeare (but then neither was shakespeare).
because of that, many "comic fans" carry with them a sense of shame and embarassement for liking this stuff. Some are quick to apologize for their hobby, while others try to hide it from others.
It is this sense of shame which allows many "fans" to support changes. In their minds anything that would make their hobby more acceptable to the general public (thereby making them ok) is fine.
they often argue that the "general public" would never accept it as is.

but I think that these people are missing a very important point. There are different ways to garner respect.
There are different genres and different mediums. There are even different levels within particular mediums. Sometimes an artist can achieve greater status in a "lower" art form than most of the artists who perform in the "higher" art forms.
Dr. Seuss writes children's books, but he is more of a genius, more respected and revered than 99% of historian, novelists, poets, and so on.
Norman rockwell's art medium isn't as sophisticated and the impressionistic, sureal, or abstract art. Yet he is considered more of a genius that 99% of the artists who paint in those styles.

it is in that sense that Kirby, Lee, Shuster, and comics in general deserve and demand our respect.
no matter how cheesy or simplistic you may think the material is, you must respect that it has achieved something that 99% of what one would consider "high art" has NOT achieved. It has touched a cord, has had a huge impact, and has lasted decades.
I call that magic because it isn't something that anyone can manufacture. Not even the world's greatest artists.
When that happens, be it fine art, high art, pulp, or whatever, it is magic.
and when it happens consistently it is genius.
You have to understand that Lee and kirby duplicated this success many times over with their creations.
They are true geniuses. They created magic.
Think of this, since the hundreds of characters created by Lee/kirby/ditko in the 60s only a handful of characters have managed to duplicate that kind of success.
There have been hot characters but many have come and gone. Only a very few characters not created by those guys have had the kind of impact which has lasted as long as these original works. (Wolverine being the top one). This is true in ALL forms of medium and art. How many movie characters, plays, novels, singers, etc. have had that kind of success?
are as well known or have the kind of passionate following as Spider-man Hulk, FF, Thor dd, Batman, Superman etc.?
YOU MUST RESPECT THAT.
like it or not it deserves your respect.
what's interesting is that this impact and this success translate to the "general public" as well as the fans.
You were wrong about Spider-man. Raimi brought the comics to life with the spider-man movies, and that is why it resonated with the general public.
no matter how poor the art may have been, the cartoons that duplicated the comics lasted much longer and had much more impact that all the latest reinterpretation cartoons that have recently come out.
Do you remember the many "new" spider-man cartoons, or Avengers cartoons etc. which have come and gone without a blip?

There is magic in the works of Lee and kirby a magic which when duplicated resonates far and wide, every single time it is retold.

and everytime hollywood deviates from that magic it is always to the detrement of the character.
It is no suprise that the spiderman movies which are the closest to the source material of all the recent superhero movies has made more than TWICE AS MUCH as the next film.

there is no need for shame. Quite the opposite in fact. There is much cause for pride.
to change Lee/kirby work on the FF for some new interpration is not only an insult, it is a huge mistake.
Galactus may seem silly to you with his "purple outfit, skirt and antena helmet" but that purple outfitted guy has resonated, lasted longer, gathered more fans, and had more success, than anyting Story has or will ever hope to do in his whole carreer. (when I say story I mean anyone involved in the re-telling of these characters),
oh nevermind, I'm writing too much,.......

truth is if one doesn't get it by now they probably never will,......

 

[highguard]

^^ That is good way to look at it SeverianB, whether it is Pulp to some or High Art, we should be able to see the genius and magic in these creations.

Who can ever having seen it dispute the majesty of that picture where Galactus speaks to the Watcher. If you hang out in Malus' covers countdown you would see what I mean.

I mean these artists create quite beautiful, detailed work not because they could not work elsewhere but because they love comics man.

Jim Lee could have been a doctor, Perez, Jae Lee, Salvadore Larocca, the Romita's we take these guys for granted but look at the beauty of their work.

It is magic.

And the writers that cared, Claremont, Roy Thomas, Len Wein, Byrne, Busiek, the Simonsons, Stan, and so many at DC, Dark Horse and other places, they love their jobs man, and how many of us can say that.

Magic indeed.

 

[Kelly]

^^ That is good way to look at it SeverianB, whether it is Pulp to some or High Art, we should be able to see the genius and magic in these creations.

Who can ever having seen it dispute the majesty of that picture where Galactus speaks to the Watcher. If you hang out in Malus' covers countdown you would see what I mean.

I mean these artists create quite beautiful, detailed work not because they could not work elsewhere but because they love comics man.

Jim Lee could have been a doctor, Perez, Jae Lee, Salvadore Larocca, the Romita's we take these guys for granted but look at the beauty of their work.

It is magic.

And the writers that cared, Claremont, Roy Thomas, Len Wein, Byrne, Busiek, the Simonsons, Stan, and so many at DC, Dark Horse and other places, they love their jobs man, and how many of us can say that.

Magic indeed.

That right there is the line that sits above all others in the discussion....


"Finding something that you truly love, that can truly make you happy in life, is a million times better than finding something that will make you rich"....

 

[SeverianB]

Love the passionate, well thought out responses.
They definitely make the brow-beating worth it.

 

[highguard]

Love the passionate, well thought out responses.
They definitely make the brow-beating worth it.

Yeah they do bud.

 

[Retroman]

Story to be honored....

April 28
TICKETS ARE NOW AVAILABLE
USC BAA 29th Annual Alumni Awards & Scholarship Benefit Gala
Saturday, April 28, 2007
Gala Chairpersons: Leonard Fuller & Linda Murray Fuller

HONOREES INCLUDE ALUMNI:
Cheryl Miller, Anthony Davis, filmmaker Tim Story,
Ebony/Jet publisher, Linda Johnson Rice & Lura Daniels-Ball

Support our USC African-American students by supporting the USC BAA 29th Annual Alumni Awards & Scholarship Benefit Gala being held on Saturday, April 28, 2007. It is our major fundraising event to provide scholarships to deserving African American students at USC, and to ensure they have the financial support to matriculate and graduate from USC.

The Awards show will be held in USC's 1,200 seat Bovard Auditorium beginning at 6:30 pm, followed by a "Dancing With The Stars" after-party in USC's Town & Gown with music, dancing and great cuisine...

Our 2007 Honorees are:

Ebony/Jet Publisher, USC Trustee, & journalism alumna, Linda Johnson Rice
Renowned filmmaker & cinema alumnus, Tim Story, ("Barbershop", "Fantastic Four", "Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer")
USC basketball legend, 2-time NCAA Champion & Olympic Gold Medalist, Cheryl Miller
USC sports legend, 2-time football and baseball national champion, Anthony Davis
USC Provost, Dr. C. L. "Max" Nikias
Distinguished USC law professor, Jody D. Armour
USC BAA corporate supporter, Merrill Lynch
recent OBAP Executive Director & music school alumna, Lura Daniels-Ball
For tax-deductible tickets, tables, sponsorships, or ads in the souvenir journal please go online to http://alumni.usc.edu/baagala or call (213) 740-8342.

If you cannot attend, but would like to make a tax-deductible contribution to our scholarship fund, please call the same number above or go online to the above website.

Source: http://alumni.usc.edu/baa/calendar.htm


P.S: It's annoying how slow this site gets sometimes.At times it's near impossible to nagivate on the forum.

 

[Kelly]

I feel ya....