To Believe or Not To Believe? (SHOW RESPECT, OR RISK A BAN) - Part 2

[KRYPTON INC.]

The likelihood of a God that can affect the fate of billions of individuals is quite illogical.

You green blooded, inhuman...

 

[ShadowBoxer]

The likelihood of a God that can affect the fate of billions of individuals is quite illogical.

God isn't human the laws of science, things we consider to be impossible or illogical doesn't apply to him.

 

[SuperFerret]

One question that I feel everyone should ask themselves regarding their beliefs is "what if I'm wrong?" I feel like the answer to that question is something very revealing.

 

[moviedoors]

One question that I feel everyone should ask themselves regarding their beliefs is "what if I'm wrong?" I feel like the answer to that question is something very revealing.

What do you find revealing about it? I ask seriously. I thought about it, and the biggest realization I've had is that there are myriad ways I could be wrong and a whole host of various consequences that might go along with them.

 

[Isildur´s Heir]

One question that I feel everyone should ask themselves regarding their beliefs is "what if I'm wrong?" I feel like the answer to that question is something very revealing.

Like i said before, and i can't stress this enough whenever i talk about my beliefs, i never ever dismiss the possibility that i might be utterly wrong about it.
My beliefs are not set in stone, i always question my beliefs, i don't claim i have proofs and/or factual truths, i don't take things at face value because they suit me, i'm not biased about it...

I believe due to years of "research" into the matter and because i "feel it in my gut"..well, first i "felt it" than i "researched it", not the other way around, which might lead to being influenced by your findings.
In fact, the first time i heard about "afterlife", "soul" and "reincarnation", i put it aside like it was crazy talk. It was years later that i started to see it differently.

My question to religious people is, why take things are face value? Taking what i said above, have you ever wondered if your belief comes from being indoctrinated? Because let's face it, the introduction to the bible comes first than the belief in God.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

One question that I feel everyone should ask themselves regarding their beliefs is "what if I'm wrong?" I feel like the answer to that question is something very revealing.

As a Christian if I am wrong then I lost nothing. I still lived an good life far beyond what I deserved. There isn't anything appealing to me about living life as a non believer. If I were an atheist, I would have much more to lose if I were wrong about God's existence. It's not like, "O well I was wrong about God's existence, better luck next time." There is no next time. From the description's I've read of hell its not a place I would want to spend all enternity. Also, I just want to point out that I don't believe in God or live the Christian lifestyle solely because I fear hell. As mentioned before in this thread, the reason I am a Christian is much deeper than that.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

Evolution Aside, Even Basic Geology Disproves Creationism

In the ongoing conflict between science and creationism, evolution is usually a main point of contention. The idea that all life on Earth evolved from a common ancestor is a major problem for creationists. As a geologist, though, I think that the rocks beneath our feet offer even better arguments against creationism. For the creationist model doesn’t square with what you can see for yourself. And this has been known since before Darwin wrote a word about evolution.

What the rocks say

I don’t have to travel very far to make this case. There’s a slab of polished rock on the wall outside my department office that refutes so-called Flood Geology: the view that a global, world-shattering flood explains geologic history after the initial creation of Earth by God. This eight-foot-long slab is a conglomerate – a rock made from water-worked fragments of older rocks.

It’s what you’d get if you buried a riverbed composed of many different types of rock deep enough below ground for temperature and pressure to forge it into a new rock. Preserved in it, you can see the original particles of sand, gravel and cobbles made of various kinds of rock. And if you look closely you can see some of the cobbles are themselves conglomerates — rocks within rocks.

Why does this disprove the creationist view of geology? Because a conglomerate made of fragments of an older conglomerate not only requires a first round of erosion, deposition, and burial deep enough to turn the original sediments into rock. It requires another pass through the whole cycle to turn the second pile of sedimentary rock fragments into another conglomerate.

In other words, this one rock shows that there is more to the geologic record than creationists describe in their scripturally-interpreted version of earth history. A single grand flood cannot explain it all. Embracing young Earth creationism means you have to abandon faith in the story told by the rocks themselves. This, of course, is no surprise to geologists who have established that the world is billions of years old, far older than the thousands of years that creationists infer from adding up the generations enumerated in the Bible.

Early Christians read nature as well as the Bible

In researching my book The Rocks Don’t Lie: A Geologist Investigates Noah’s Flood, I looked into the history of thought about the biblical flood. What I found surprised me on two levels. First, most of the early workers who pioneered what we now call geology were clergy dedicated to reading God’s other book — nature. Second, in pitting science against Christianity, today’s young Earth creationists essentially ignore centuries of Christian theology.

For the first thousand years of Christianity, the church considered literal interpretations of the stories in Genesis to be overly simplistic interpretations that missed deeper meaning. Influential thinkers like Saint Augustine and Saint Thomas Aquinas held that what we could learn from studying the book of nature could not conflict with the Bible because they shared the same author. Yes, it seems that one of the oldest traditions in Christian thought holds that when reason contradicts favored interpretations of scripture about the natural world then those interpretations should be reconsidered.

In keeping with this view, mainstream Christians reinterpreted the biblical stories of the creation and flood after geological discoveries revealed that Earth had a longer and more complicated history than would be inferred from a literal reading of Genesis. Perhaps, they concluded, the days in the week of creation corresponded to geological ages. Maybe Noah’s flood was not global but a devastating Mesopotamian flood.

Young Earth creationists break from history

For over a century, such views dominated mainstream Christian theology until the twentieth century rise of young Earth creationism. This is the version of creationism to which Ken Ham subscribes – you might remember his debate with Bill Nye from 2014. Young Earth creationists imagine that people lived with dinosaurs and that Noah’s flood shaped the world’s topography. In fact, this brand of creationism, embodied by Ham’s Creation Museum in Kentucky, is actually one of the youngest branches of Christianity’s family tree.

Interestingly, one can challenge Flood Geology on biblical grounds. What did Noah do in the biblical story? He saved two of every living thing. So consider the case of fossils, which creationists attribute to the flood. What you find in the rocks is that more than 99% of all species entombed in the rock record are extinct. This simple fact offers a stark contrast to what you would expect to find based on a literal reading of the biblical story.

After looking into the long history of engagement and cross-pollination between geology and Christianity, I find it curious that the conversation constantly gravitates to arguments for and against evolution. Overlooked is how the young Earth creationist’s literal interpretation of biblical stories runs afoul of basic geological observations — like that slab of rock on the wall near my office.

A key point that gets lost in debates over the modern perception of conflict between science and religion is the degree to which this is actually a conflict within religion over how to view science.

https://theconversation.com/even-setting-evolution-aside-basic-geology-disproves-creationism-40356

Human Torch, consider yourself shut down. Your argument is invalid. And there is no "hotly debated" end to the dinosaurs, we know for a fact they were wiped out by a meteor strike

 

[Spock]

One question that I feel everyone should ask themselves regarding their beliefs is "what if I'm wrong" I feel like the answer to that question is something very revealing.

If it is the biblical God who can forgive murderers that repent, this same God would forgive someone that felt his existence was illogical.

 

[jerkhero]

As a Christian if I am wrong then I lost nothing. I still lived an good life far beyond what I deserved. There isn't anything appealing to me about living life as a non believer. If I were an atheist, I would have much more to lose if I were wrong about God's existence. It's not like, "O well I was wrong about God's existence, better luck next time." There is no next time. From the description's I've read of hell its not a place I would want to spend all enternity. Also, I just want to point out that I don't believe in God or live the Christian lifestyle solely because I fear hell. As mentioned before in this thread, the reason I am a Christian is much deeper than that.

There's always the chance that you were wrong, believed in false god and the real one sends you to hell or somewhere similar. Or your God was the real deal, but you did something wrong anyway and hell awaits, since we can't really understand God and logic doesn't apply to him.


What if I'm wrong? Well, I guess it depends on what I'm wrong about. Which of the thousands of gods will judge me..or maybe it's a mix, or some kind of "new" entity. If it happens to be the God of the Old Testament for example, then I'm screwed. Or maybe I'm chosen by Odin for some reason, then it's drinking and eating in Valhalla. Guess I'll just wait and see.

 

[Greens]

As a Christian if I am wrong then I lost nothing. I still lived an good life far beyond what I deserved. There isn't anything appealing to me about living life as a non believer. If I were an atheist, I would have much more to lose if I were wrong about God's existence. It's not like, "O well I was wrong about God's existence, better luck next time." There is no next time. From the description's I've read of hell its not a place I would want to spend all enternity. Also, I just want to point out that I don't believe in God or live the Christian lifestyle solely because I fear hell. As mentioned before in this thread, the reason I am a Christian is much deeper than that.

If you are wrong and a different God is real, you could lose a lot. There are thousands of religions, and reality may even be something no one has thought of yet. Not that this has ANY bearing on the validity of religion OR atheism.

 

[zeroapoc]

As a Christian if I am wrong then I lost nothing. I still lived an good life far beyond what I deserved. There isn't anything appealing to me about living life as a non believer. If I were an atheist, I would have much more to lose if I were wrong about God's existence. It's not like, "O well I was wrong about God's existence, better luck next time." There is no next time. From the description's I've read of hell its not a place I would want to spend all enternity. Also, I just want to point out that I don't believe in God or live the Christian lifestyle solely because I fear hell. As mentioned before in this thread, the reason I am a Christian is much deeper than that.

That's overly simplistic. Your argument only accounts for 2 possibilities. Either there is no God, or the Christian God is real. There's an infinite number of possibilities that you're not even factoring in.

Edit - I see people above me have already weighed in with thoughts similar to mine.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

No disrespect to people of other religions but I strongly believe there is only one God. Here's why

A crucial distinctive about Christianity is that God cared enough about humankind to reach down and compassionately provide a way for us to be in a right relationship with Him. In other religions, people vainly attempt to reach God and earn their own salvation by doing good deeds and by refraining from bad behavior.

The problem for those people is that no one can ever be good enough to earn his own salvation. In other words, no one can ever reach God through his own efforts. That is why God made a way for us by sending His Son Jesus to live a holy and sinless life and suffer the payment for our sins. In this way, if we believe in Jesus and choose to follow Him, we are forgiven by God and given new life.

A critical difference is that in Christianity people can truly have genuine assurance of their salvation. They can be certain that they are going to heaven because their salvation is anchored in what Jesus already did for them. As a result, Christians have peace in their hearts about where they will go when their lives on earth are finished.

In other faiths, people cannot be assured that they will go to heaven because they can never know if they have done enough good works to earn God’s favor or forgiveness. They have to continually try to earn their salvation—even until their last day and dying breath. They cannot experience the restful assurance that God gives those who trust in Jesus Christ.

Simply put Jesus is the major factor that elevates the Christian belief and Christian God above the others. That validates things for me.

And hypothetically speaking, if I am still better off believing in A God, rather than no God.

 

[Greens]

In other words, you prefer Christianity so it's more true? I mean, your argument comes down to personal preference. I don't "disbelieve" in God because I like it, but because it's the hard truth.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

I don't simply perfer Christianity because it's a common religion or I grew up in a household that practiced it. I based my beliefs on what I know to be true based on experiences in my life and those that I know ( family, friends) who also had experiences that lead to the believe in the Christian faith. Things non believers really won't understand. I believe that Buddha, Allah, Zeus etc are the same God I believe in just interpreted in a drastically different way by people of various cultures. I am not gonna say I know for a 100% fact there isn't multiple God's out there, but in my personal opinion I don't believe there is. And I highly doubt any humans will ever be able to disprove the existence of God or a God. So I am very comfortable and confident in what I believe. If by some random off chance I am incorrect, then it is what it is. But I believe I am still in a better position in regards to the afterlife for believing in A GOD than some one who believes in NO God.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

In other words, you prefer Christianity so it's more true? I mean, your argument comes down to personal preference. I don't "disbelieve" in God because I like it, but because it's the hard truth.

So you know for a fact there is no God or Gods?

 

[Greens]

So you know for a fact there is no God or Gods?

I'm pretty sure there is no God. Could there be a god? Sure, but I doubt it would be the Christian God. I think it would be something else entirely.

 

[moviedoors]

But I believe I am still in a better position in regards to the afterlife for believing in A GOD than some one who believes in NO God.

No. We are all on an equal playing field.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

For as cool as scientific discoveries are, to me it just doesn't explain things enough. Like I mentioned a few times, when I look at the earth and nature, wildlife, and people, I find it hard pressed that this all happened randomly. I definitely see a higher power at play. Yes, I accept the big bang theory and even evolution but I do believe God orchestrated all of it. To me people that believe all this just happened just because and spew out random theories or articles that support their view are no more validated in their beliefs than a religious person is.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

No. We are all on an equal playing field.

Not really. Suppose there are multiple Gods and you died believing in none of them. Now there is a chance you could be correct in there being no God, but your taking a higher risk than a person who believes in one of these Gods. Since there are supposed multiple Gods, the people who believe in them have more chances to be right.

 

[moviedoors]

For as cool as scientific discoveries are, to me it just doesn't explain things enough.

Of course. That's why it's still an active field.

To me people that believe all this just happened just because and spew out random theories or articles that support their view are no more validated in their beliefs than a religious person is.

They're not random. Don't mis-characterize.

 

[Greens]

For as cool as scientific discoveries are, to me it just doesn't explain things enough.

What the hell does that mean? You do know that science is ongoing? We don't have perfect knowledge, and we never will. Science is a "work-in-progress" all the time, so of course you're not going to have ALL the answers.

Yes, someone who supports their views with peer-reviewed, legitimate scientific studies is more validated in their beliefs than someone who uses biblical rhetoric.

 

[Greens]

Not really. Suppose there are multiple Gods and you died believing in none of them. Now there is a chance you could be correct in there being no God, but your taking a higher risk than a person who believes in one of these Gods. Since there are supposed multiple Gods, the people who believe in them have more chances to be right.

No. Suppose there are 10 options: no God, God 1, God 2, God 3 etc. through God 9

Someone who believes in no God has an equal chance of being right as someone who believes in God 3 or God 4.

Obviously, real life doesn't work that way because not every claim is verifiable, but in essence you're not bettering your odds in any way.

 

[moviedoors]

Not really. Suppose there are multiple Gods and you died believing in none of them. Now there is a chance you could be correct in there being no God, but your taking a higher risk than a person who believes in one of these Gods. Since there are supposed multiple Gods, the people who believe in them have more chances to be right.

I'm sorry, but no. You're making MASSIVE assumptions based an ENORMOUS number of variables. Down here in the dirt, we are all equally in the dark when it comes to an afterlife. Believing in it (or not) doesn't make you more qualified to speak on it as an authority outside the realm of historical and/or theological studies.

 

[Kelly]

I'm sorry, but no. You're making MASSIVE assumptions based an ENORMOUS number of variables. Down here in the dirt, we are all equally in the dark when it comes to an afterlife. Believing in it (or not) doesn't make you more qualified to speak on it as an authority outside the realm of historical and/or theological studies.

He didn't say that because he believes in it makes him more qualified. He is just speaking from his heart about something that he believes in. There is nothing wrong with that, no more wrong than you stating what you believe or do not believe in.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

No disrespect to people of other religions but I strongly believe there is only one God. Here's why

A crucial distinctive about Christianity is that God cared enough about humankind to reach down and compassionately provide a way for us to be in a right relationship with Him. In other religions, people vainly attempt to reach God and earn their own salvation by doing good deeds and by refraining from bad behavior.

The problem for those people is that no one can ever be good enough to earn his own salvation. In other words, no one can ever reach God through his own efforts. That is why God made a way for us by sending His Son Jesus to live a holy and sinless life and suffer the payment for our sins. In this way, if we believe in Jesus and choose to follow Him, we are forgiven by God and given new life.

A critical difference is that in Christianity people can truly have genuine assurance of their salvation. They can be certain that they are going to heaven because their salvation is anchored in what Jesus already did for them. As a result, Christians have peace in their hearts about where they will go when their lives on earth are finished.

In other faiths, people cannot be assured that they will go to heaven because they can never know if they have done enough good works to earn God’s favor or forgiveness. They have to continually try to earn their salvation—even until their last day and dying breath. They cannot experience the restful assurance that God gives those who trust in Jesus Christ.

Simply put Jesus is the major factor that elevates the Christian belief and Christian God above the others. That validates things for me.

And hypothetically speaking, if I am still better off believing in A God, rather than no God.

This appears less about faith and more about having some kind of religious insurance for live after death. I think if removing the element of an existence extending beyond death, religion wouldn't even work. Of course it was created during a time of low scientific understanding and a belief in supernatural events that don't exist. A lot has changed with a natural world understanding. Now the wind blowing is understood to not be a God or spirits. Now a thunderstorm is not God sending warnings... etc. Honestly religion seems very antiquated as it comes out of a time from a lower intellectual level of understanding.