The Dark Knight Too Much Realism?

[Reek]

SPOILERS.

ILL REPEAT THAT

THERE WILL BE SPOILERS IN HERE. TDK SPOILERS, IM SPOILERS AND TIH SPOILERS. (kinda for IM and TIH, but nothing that will upset anyone)

anyone else feel like this might take the 'realism' aspect way to far for a superhero flick?

dont take this the wrong way, this movie is going to own ass. but with the new 'rumors' , that seem to be 100% true because of the sources they came from, it just seems like this could lose its superhero feel and jsut be a regular action movie. sure we have batman and the joker and two face...but we also have SPOILERS .... batman apparently going on the run from the cops again, hes been running from them all of BB (with the exception of gordon), and 2face dying apparently.

i immediately assume if face is dying, its gotta be from poisoning or infection or something. unless nolan just has him shot after 25 min of screen time. the realism side would be infection, poisoning...lets hope its a funeral for Harvey. and not for twoface. i have a feeling they have a funeral for Harvey bc he has gone so overboard crazy they want to remember who he was, not what he has become now.

batman on the run from the police and people blaming him for whats going on...i mean, realistically, the batman would have the cops all over his ass. but then again, what superhero wouldnt have the entire us govt on their ass? hopefully its more of a half the city loves batman, half the city doesnt type of thing. but he is a hero, and after 2 full movies of him being questionable, why not make it a question answered that he is here for good and when the cops cant control the craziness that is gotham city, the batman goes in. that is more of a superhero flick.

however, it would be a very interesting path nolan would take, 100% diff from the other films (spidey, supes)

hell even in the end of TIH and IM they were recognized as heroes...Hulk went on the run yes, but he can control it now. and u can bet your ass hes not gonna be on the run the entire time when new york is attacked by some beast again


again dont get me wrong, this movie will own. it will most likely be the best SH/Comic movie of all time, atleast among the best.

hopefully all that made sense

flame away



NOTE: This is all based on speculation. Nothing has been proven as FACT yet, but it might as well be given the sources.

 

[namtaB]

Shouldn't this be in the "does anyone have concerns" thread?

In B4 teh LOCK.

 

[Gianakin_]

Better edit that last sentence, NamtaB.

Spoiler

As for the topic at hand, no, 2Face does not die of infection and yes, Nolan kills him after 30 minutes of screentime (however, the whole movie is dedicated to develop him, his rise and his fall, so he's not getting Venomed).

BB and TDK have enough fantastical, unrealistic elements. Fantasy doesn't always mean supernatural stuff and creatures.

 

[Reek]

its not a concern as much as it is me wanting to see others opinions...maybe its bothering me more than it should about the spoilers ^^ so im reading other peoples inputs.

In b4 teh Lock? wont even respond to that.

 

[Bat-Mite]

Nolan's world isn't even HALF as realistic as Nolan's critics make it out to be. I seriously doubt a man would be able to perfectly glide through a city with a fancy cape the way Batman does with these films. And it's very unlikely that a semi truck would do somersault in a city street without doing a LOT of damage, even if a mine was placed under it. And that's not even getting into the tumbler driving on rooftops without falling in.

batman on the run from the police and people blaming him for whats going on...i mean, realistically, the batman would have the cops all over his ass. but then again, what superhero wouldnt have the entire us govt on their ass? hopefully its more of a half the city loves batman, half the city doesnt type of thing. but he is a hero, and after 2 full movies of him being questionable, why not make it a question answered that he is here for good and when the cops cant control the craziness that is gotham city, the batman goes in. that is more of a superhero flick.

Batman's had the police force after him plenty of times in the comic books as well (Year One comes to mind) as well as on the animated series and Mask of the Phantasm. Hell, they were even after him in Batman 89 and Batman Returns. It's part of the character, whether you like it or not. Btw, the way you're describing him as being in cahoots with the police force, it makes me think of Batman as being an official member of the force like in Adam West's Batman. Are they going to start dialing him up on the batphone now?

 

[xwolverine2]

im just concerned with the fact that the realism is taking away from wild action scenes these movies lack...

 

[Axtech]

Batman has had conflict with the police throughout comic history. That's one small element of what makes him an interesting hero: the fact that he's constantly bordering on vigilantism, that he's always so very close to crossing that line that defines him as a hero.

It has nothing to do with Nolan's "realism", which is itself a concept that has been taken way too far by fans and critics. Nolan's world isn't as "realistic" as people seem to think. There's a plausibility that he's given to certain events and characters, but it's still a superhero movie.

Further to that point, his choices with Two-Face have NOTHING to do with "realism". Nolan's not stupid enough to make major decisions about such an iconic character based on whether or not he would survive in real life. That's a ridiculous assumption to make. Two-Face is shot, according to the reviews we've seen, he doesn't die from an infection. And there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this choice was made based on what was appropriate for the story and the character, not some shoddy attempt at creating some ridiculous true-to-life situation.

 

[Reek]

i dont recall saying that bat-mite. but what i meant by that was it shouldnt be the cops top priority to bring in the batman to the point where hes on the run. he ultimately does more good than bad, and him and gordon have a good relationship. nice try at being a jerk though.

for those who know me, im sure you know where im coming from with some of this stuff and understand im not bashing the movie by any means.

 

[Reek]

Batman has had conflict with the police throughout comic history. That's one small element of what makes him an interesting hero: the fact that he's constantly bordering on vigilantism, that he's always so very close to crossing that line that defines him as a hero.

It has nothing to do with Nolan's "realism", which is itself a concept that has been taken way too far by fans and critics. Nolan's world isn't as "realistic" as people seem to think. There's a plausibility that he's given to certain events and characters, but it's still a superhero movie.

Further to that point, his choices with Two-Face have NOTHING to do with "realism". Nolan's not stupid enough to make major decisions about such an iconic character based on whether or not he would survive in real life. That's a ridiculous assumption to make. Two-Face is shot, according to the reviews we've seen, he doesn't die from an infection. And there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this choice was made based on what was appropriate for the story and the character, not some shoddy attempt at creating some ridiculous true-to-life situation.

a ridiculous assumption? its ridiculous to think a man who has half his face/head burnt horrendously with acid or what have you is what kills him?

its ridiculous to assume someone would survive that esp after seeing the concept art. realism has tons to do with twoface. and to be honest...NO ONE knows how he dies for sure. for all we know these reviews could be BS... some could be legit...but one thing is 99% sure...twoface dies...how? we dont know for sure...

lol i love how people come right after me!

also i never said it wasnt appropriate for the story... this entire harvey dent thing seemed like it would end in his death from the very beginning...in nolans words i believe 'its more about harvey dent and his tragic story.' i immediately assumed the tragedy would be his scarring, not his death, but it seems more obvious now that it is his death.

i still question how 'bad' twoface really will be though. i just cant see him going from crime fighting DA to bad ass in 2 seconds and stay that way for 30 min. then done. over.

now what would be interesting and better IMO...is if before the last half hour starts, batman is on the run. twoface is established...but in the end, twoface dies helping batman take down the joker. redeeming himself and setting up a theme for the third batman...Redemption.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Its not an infection, its Lupus.

Jesus Christ this thread sucks.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

personally so far Im glad with what we're getting realism wise.

 

[Bat-Mite]

i dont recall saying that bat-mite. but what i meant by that was it shouldnt be the cops top priority to bring in the batman to the point where hes on the run. he ultimately does more good than bad, and him and gordon have a good relationship. nice try at being a jerk though.

Considering that he's making headlines all the time in Gotham, he is a problem for the police force. That he's still on the run makes it look like they aren't doing their jobs. And it's not like the good that he does goes unrecognized. Harvey Dent came close to defending him in his speech (that was recently featured in a clip) where he said Batman would have to answer for the laws he's broken, but that he would answer to the people of Gotham when the time came, not the Joker. So it's not like even everyone affiliated with the law enforcement is completely gung-ho about bringing him in.

And it's nice that you're calling me a jerk for having a difference of opinion with you. Judging by your 'flame away' comment in the opening post, you knew you were stirring up a hornet's nest even when you made this topic, so I don't see why you're getting upset when people have opinions differing from yours.

 

[Anubis Raptor]

With the audiences and critics that exist today, realism is key.

 

[Axtech]

a ridiculous assumption? its ridiculous to think a man who has half his face/head burnt horrendously with acid or what have you is what kills him?

No, read what I said again. It's ridiculous to assume that Nolan would write his characters that way.

its ridiculous to assume someone would survive that esp after seeing the concept art. realism has tons to do with twoface. and to be honest...NO ONE knows how he dies for sure. for all we know these reviews could be BS... some could be legit...but one thing is 99% sure...twoface dies...how? we dont know for sure...

lol i love how people come right after me!

I love how you're basing this on the reviews that say he dies, and then you ignore how the reviews say he dies. Again, these movies are not ultra-realistic to the point where you could determine whether or not a character like Two-Face, who has survived in every other incarnation of the character, would HAVE to die based on his disfigurement alone.

also i never said it wasnt appropriate for the story... this entire harvey dent thing seemed like it would end in his death from the very beginning...in nolans words i believe 'its more about harvey dent and his tragic story.' i immediately assumed the tragedy would be his scarring, not his death, but it seems more obvious now that it is his death.

Exactly, but my point is that the reason for his death is story-based, and not some attempt at pointlessly satisfying some "realistic" outcome of his scarring.

 

[Reek]

And it's nice that you're calling me a jerk for having a difference of opinion with you. Judging by your 'flame away' comment in the opening post, you knew you were stirring up a hornet's nest even when you made this topic, so I don't see why you're getting upset when people have opinions differing from yours.

not upset by anymeans, jsut the way i read your post seemed that way

 

[Darknightnomis]

No offense to you are your comments...but if you want to see Batman in fantasy settings just watch the 89 - 97 movies.

From Tim Burton's Goth to Shuchmachare's Glam, you got it there.

Thank God Nolan is keeping his movies "real".

 

[Axtech]

With the audiences and critics that exist today, realism is key.

And yet The Incredible Hulk, Iron Man, Spider Man ... all have been successful. Not to mention all of the non-comicbook fantasy movies that have done extremely well over the years.

 

[Reek]

No, read what I said again. It's ridiculous to assume that Nolan would write his characters that way.



I love how you're basing this on the reviews that say he dies, and then you ignore how the reviews say he dies. Again, these movies are not ultra-realistic to the point where you could determine whether or not a character like Two-Face, who has survived in every other incarnation of the character, would HAVE to die based on his disfigurement alone.



Exactly, but my point is that the reason for his death is story-based, and not some attempt at pointlessly satisfying some "realistic" outcome of his scarring.

i told you from the start, its all speculation from my point... the only thing im believing is the fact he dies...now how is a diff story...jsut speculation and i read in a review and some posts on CHUD that he dies or is dying from the scarring. which gives him a different kind of nothing to lose edge...but like i said in the first post...this is all speculation, esp on my part, assuming that he dies from the scarring, and assuming batman becomes public enemy number 1 after joker is taken down, forcing him on the run, that the realism could be going to far for a comic movie in those aspects... againt, in no way am i saying this will take away from the movie, just ruins the killer setup they had for a 3rd, unless nolan completely blows us away with a better setup...

 

[Smit84]

I LOVE the fact that this isn't much of a superhero story. I mean, all the previous films were very superheroish/comic-bookish, even Batman Begins to an extent. Why NOT do one Batman movie that is an epic crime drama? There will be more interpretations down the road. Besides, we've seen a comic-book-world version of Joker and Two-Face.

As for the lack of action I'd really rather have a strong story that I can get really involved with over well-shot action sequences in a Batman movie any day. I guess it's because I grew up on the Burton & Shumacher movies which were never really known for incredible set pieces. When I go see a Batman film I want to see a heroic story.

 

[Reek]

No offense to you are your comments...but if you want to see Batman in fantasy settings just watch the 89 - 97 movies.

From Tim Burton's Goth to Shuchmachare's Glam, you got it there.

Thank God Nolan is keeping his movies "real".

guys, ill make this clear again....im not complaining. these arent complaints as much as thoughts just written down... if harvey dying makes the movie better, then by all means kill him. but if he does indeed die from the scarring, then that would eat at me.

i never said i want more fantasy... just, if the movie plays out with harvey dying from scarring and batman being the cops top priority, then i would want less realism...but fantasy can stay back in 97 for all i care...it doesnt work for this Gotham anyways.

 

[Reek]

i guess this could all be stemming from the bothering thought that twoface wont get to be in this trilogy for more then 30 minutes... i believe face deserves much more.

but it def got me thinking "damn how far is this realism really going to go". rachel apparently dies, harvey apparently dies, loeb apparently dies, gordon fakes his death, lucius is rumored to leave wayen enterprises (read that somewhere on here), that leaves Bruce, Gordon, and Alfred....and with caine getting older, Alfred will probably have a smaller role in a few years. gotta give it to nolan though, if batman were real, he has hit the nail on the head, atleast close to the head. in reality, rachel would probably die, so would harvey. so kudos to nolan for that and all, but too mcuh realism could be a bad thing.

 

[Axtech]

i told you from the start, its all speculation from my point... the only thing im believing is the fact he dies...now how is a diff story...jsut speculation and i read in a review and some posts on CHUD that he dies or is dying from the scarring. which gives him a different kind of nothing to lose edge...but like i said in the first post...this is all speculation, esp on my part, assuming that he dies from the scarring, and assuming batman becomes public enemy number 1 after joker is taken down, forcing him on the run, that the realism could be going to far for a comic movie in those aspects... againt, in no way am i saying this will take away from the movie, just ruins the killer setup they had for a 3rd, unless nolan completely blows us away with a better setup...

I definitely agree, in that I was looking forward to seeing the third movie set up with Two-Face as the main villain.

I guess my main issue is with people (not necessarily yourself) who keep grasping at the straws of this "realism" to explain away anything Nolan does. Everybody was excited for Two-Face, but as soon as we find out he dies, these "realism-graspers" jump to Nolan's defense saying that Two-Face isn't realistic enough anyways ... a complaint that NEVER would have surfaced had we not found out that Two-Face dies. No one would have even blinked at the idea of Two-Face surviving in Nolan's world until now, when suddenly "Two-Face surviving isn't realisitc! what about infections?!" It's just frustrating that suddenly realism is a big concern now that he dies, when otherwise no one would have cared about how realistic it was. Instead of thinking about the significance of these events in the context of the movie, people just jump on the "realism" bandwagon and that's that.

 

[metalhead971]

WTF is this ***** about Two Face dying? Please tell me this is just an unfounded rumor.....I thought we went through this crap with the previous films. Didn't Nolan state he wouldn't kill off any main characters?

 

[Bat-Mite]

WTF is this ***** about Two Face dying? Please tell me this is just an unfounded rumor.....I thought we went through this crap with the previous films. Didn't Nolan state he wouldn't kill off any main characters?

Goyer stated it, I believe. But I thought he and Nolan were on the same page, and I'm pretty sure that they wrote the story together. So if it turns out that this is indeed the end of Harvey, then I'll feel quite betrayed.

 

[Reek]

I definitely agree, in that I was looking forward to seeing the third movie set up with Two-Face as the main villain.

I guess my main issue is with people (not necessarily yourself) who keep grasping at the straws of this "realism" to explain away anything Nolan does. Everybody was excited for Two-Face, but as soon as we find out he dies, these "realism-graspers" jump to Nolan's defense saying that Two-Face isn't realistic enough anyways ... a complaint that NEVER would have surfaced had we not found out that Two-Face dies. No one would have even blinked at the idea of Two-Face surviving in Nolan's world until now, when suddenly "Two-Face surviving isn't realisitc! what about infections?!" It's just frustrating that suddenly realism is a big concern now that he dies, when otherwise no one would have cared about how realistic it was. Instead of thinking about the significance of these events in the context of the movie, people just jump on the "realism" bandwagon and that's that.

oh i agree with you. im not defending or offending nolan, im 100% sure ill enjoy this movie.

i know it may look like it, but im really not complaining, just carrying a convo.