Batman Begins Upon repeated viewings, this is the best movie I've EVER seen.

[The Joker]

BB is the best movie you've ever seen??

You need to see more movies

 

[Damiean Dark]

BB is way down in my list of favourite fantasy science fiction or action films, films like:

Terminator 2, Batman 1989, Batman Returns, Jurrassic Park, Die Hard 1 and 2, The Crow, Blade 1 and 2, Xmen 2, Alien, Aliens, Predator 1 and 2, Back to the future 1and 2, Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, The Incredibles, Pirates Of The Carribean, Fellowship Of The Ring.

All these films are more ENJOYABLE then BB even though some of them are pushing the 20 year old mark.

 

[blind_fury]

^^^Agreed.

 

[Cosmic]

I can accept a Batman movie with no action, because I don't think Batman should based on action. Batman, to me, isn't about spectacle - like Spider-Man. Spectacle is when there's something there for no real reason, other than to show-off something, like swinging between buildings, flying around on a glider, or driving the Tumbler through the streets of Gotham. There are plot points leading up to it... but come on... everything in the car chase wasn't necessary, was it? That's why the action in Batman Begins was the weakest point, in my opinion.

True, Batman isn't purely about spectacle, or action. But those are essential elements for any good Batman story. You can (and should) have these elements, along with drama, mystery, suspense, and all the other things that make Batman stories exciting and memorable, without it being just another mindless action flick. I think Batman Begins drew a pretty good balance.

I look at movies from a MATURE point of view. It has to be realistic to me... I know, I know... it's a MOVIE, so it's ALLOWED to be over-the-top and silly... but I just can't get interested in Spider-Man. I was a teenager once, sure, but even so... I still can't relate to it. It just seems so cartoony, childish, PC, and patriotic.

Well, I thought you were referring to the character in general, and not just the movies. I also despise the movies, but I think the character, as established in his first appearance, is a work of genius.

Batman, on the other hand, is just a badass... he's the ADULT superhero, and I think Batman Begins was the movie that finally let us know that "Hey, we can take this SERIOUSLY", instead of throwing him in a neon-colored city, or putting him in a plane so he can fight off gas-filled balloons. Do you know what I mean? It feels like to an extent, Batman Begins was completely REALISTIC, and was set in the "real world", and it's action was the only thing that pulled away from that.

Right, they treated the character with total seriousness and respect, and people loved it. It's a respectable feat, considering the image that's taken hold in most people's minds regarding Batman, and also comics in general, as something that's supposed to be silly, or reserved for children, at best.

 

[The Sage]

No offense but I think you need to review the movies you said you've seen, especially Heat, The Matrix, Fight Club and Pulp Fiction.

I like Batman Begins a lot, but in repeat viewings, you begin to notice things that bother you and bring it down.

 

[CConn]

I really can't blame anyone for feeling BB is their favorite movie ever. God knows, I still love B89 more than just about anything.

 

[Streeter1981]

This is a sick sick sick (as in awesome) movie! Even the GIRLS like it!

 

[Afsheen]

Hi, i completely respect your opinion, and my friend told me people with low or no post counts don't get much respect in this forum, but regardless, i signed up for this forum just to respond to this post: in regards to batman begins being the best movie ever i completely disagree, and in terms of emotion from beginning to end, theres so many movies that do it better just one off the top of my head It's a Beautiful Life, it's better in terms of emotion, because the audience has to sit there and watch as this poor father has to continue to lie to his son in order to keep him happy, and all the while deep inside hes torn with fear and sadness, and for arguments sake ill keep using its a beautiful life as my main counter example, the emotion starts from beginning to end: the beginning we see a wonderful relationship between father and son, and it builds our liking of the two, then it procedes to create a horrible environment for the two, in which the father continuously has to convince his son things are all right, and to the death his father lies to his son, just to make him happy, and in hopes of keeping his son from being emotionally and psychologically damaged from the events of the holocaust. Now that being said, batman begins does two things wrong, the first of which i think any batman fan would agree, was casting katie holmes to play opposite of christian bale, or just to be in the movie at all. The second is the script. The script was plainly said: CHEESY! if such great actors had not been cast it would have been known to more. Don't get me wrong though i love batman and i was really pleased with what they did with the movie, i view it as a great success, just not the best of all time. Also since ive written so much i might as well include that i highly doubt that the next movie will fall short of batman begins. for one joker is in it and if youre a batman fan by default you have to be a joker fan, thus creating a great basis for a great movie, and to top it off you have nolan depicting a crazy/deranged man that finds pain to batman amusing, need i say more? good example: fight club k im done thanks for listening and thats my first post on superhero hype!

 

[Cryogenic]

Hmmmm...

I think I understand the level of passion that gave rise to the original post. For me, "Jurassic Park" evokes similar levels of awe. From the moment that that iconic text appears on the screen and the first bars of John Williams' stunning score begin, I'm hooked. The film has such scale and majesty -- has Hawaii ever looked better (well, OK, it does look good at the end of "Blue Hawaii", as Elvis and his bride sail down a verdant river to the strains of "Hawaiian Wedding Song")? And the craftmanship of JP is off the scale. I also get a kick each and every time I see and hear Jeff Goldblum speaking in that inimitable way of his. To me, "Jurassic Park" is what movie-making is all about. But I wouldn't remotely call it "one of the best movies ever made". There are at least 100 greater films in the history of the medium (and being honest, probably closer to 1,000).

I could say the same for some of my other favourites, including "Superman", "The Terminator" and "Terminator 2: Judgment Day", "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles", "A Bronx Tale", "The Lion King", "Toy Story" and "A.I.".

These are all strong films in their own right, with excellent values all round, but I wouldn't put them on any "Greatest Films" lists (the possible exceptions might be "Superman", "The Terminator" and "Toy Story", but even then, there are other seminal animated works like "Snow White And The Seven Dwarfs", "Fantasia", "Pinnochio" and "The Jungle Book" which should go higher, in the case of "Toy Story", and other live-action films, in the case of "Superman" and "The Terminator").

My friends make fun of me because I'm a movie buff. They name any movie, and I can tell you the director, the actors, quotes, etc. I memorized alot of Fight Club. I'm obsessed with Pulp Fiction, The Matrix, Vanilla Sky, American Psycho, Se7en, Cast Away, Memento, Heat, Crash.

You name it. I've seen it.

That sounds like a rather bold claim. For starters: All those films you listed have been made in the last two decades. What about films pre-dating the 1990's?

No movie matches the quality and brilliance of Batman Begins.

It's a bold statement, and some of you might laugh... but allow me to explain.

I completely disagree and assert that ALL of those films you listed above are superior to "Batman Begins", as well as at least 100 others. Ignoring the hideously biased and extremely myopic joke of a list on IMDb, I recommend the following site, which has links to numerous lists of LANDMARK motion picture productions:

http://www.filmsite.org/films.html

The funny thing you have to realize is, if Batman Begins was on HBO one day, and "the average movie-goer" flipped to the channel just as little Bruce was falling down the well, he/she would have NO CLUE that this was a Batman movie, and that's what I love about it. If you don't know who Bruce Wayne is, then you'll have no clue what this movie IS until an hour into it, when Batman himself suddenly shows up. It's so damn brilliant.

I'm not sure that that's true. There are no scientific ways to empirically measure such a thing. That said, to the degree to which it might be true, I'd have to say that that is half of "Batman Begins"' problem -- it lacks style, character, flavour, invention.

Nolan's an amazing director, basically.

I respectfully disagree. Nolan has done one great film, "Memento", a fairly average one, "Insomnia", and a pretty dismal one, "Batman Begins", in my opinion. I tend to see him as a one-trick pony.

It's the little things about this movie that make it my all-time favorite:

- The Birthday party sequence (Liam Neeson's speech, with Bale's interactions).
- Cillian Murphy's acting. "He's here. The Batmaaaan."
- Virtually anything that Michael Caine did. The emotions from this man during the scene after the funeral are superb.
- Gary Oldman's simple approach.
- Tom Wilkinson's acting during the restaurant scene.

Since I have great affection for Michael Caine's screen presence and acting ability (LOVE him in "Alfie", "Get Carter", "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels" and "The Muppet Christmas Carol"), I can agree with your assessment of his performance in "Batman Begins", but I don't agree with anything else. Caine was truly superb in this picture and brought a real human dimension to the story. I loved his role as Bruce's surrogate father figure and mentor. It was the only aspect of "Batman Begins" that truly moved and captivated me.

- When we first see Liam Neeson in the jail cell, and the music builds as he explains to Bale: "But, if you make yourself MORE than just a man, if you devote yourself to an ideal, and if THEY can't stop you... you become something else entirely." ---- Pay attention to this scene in particular... the way the chords in the music progress and go higher as they cut to Liam's face as he says "And if THEY can't stop you".... and then when they cut back to his face as he says "A legend, Mr. Wayne"... watch how the frame is closer to his face than before. That's GOOD directing, dammit!!

With all due respect, I'm not sure what marks this moment out as "good directing". If anything, this is solid editing -- nothing more, nothing less. A slow pan into an actor's face to add weight / tension is a pretty standard cinematic device, and I don't see anything distinguished about the way that BB employed it here.

- When Bale goes down into the cave, and the bats fly around him, and that music just builds... and builds... and EXPLODES, followed by a quick cut to Cillian Murphy's line "No more favors".

This is certainly one of the more striking / iconic moments in the film, but I don't see anything particularly clever about the cut. If BB had more moments like that of the bats swarming around Bruce (even though bats display the reverse behaviour towards humans in real life; I actually have some outside my house), then it might have carved out a name for itself, but I honestly don't think that it did. It just isn't a particularly engaging or memorable film, in my opinion.

Nolan's eye for the camera is just so impressive. He has a real instinct, much like a painter knows how to move the brush on the canvas. This is a real "art film", in my opinion. It has "art" to it. It FEELS like looking at a painting and being moved by it, but you don't know why. The scene where Batman is standing on top of the building, motionless like a gargoyle overlooking the city as the camera pans around him and suddenly stops... that MOVES me.

There are a few nice compositions in this film, no doubt, but I think Nolan's efforts were severely undermined by the terrible editing. The film is a hacked-up mess, especially in its action sequences. For what it's worth, I thought that the most effective cinematography was contained in the film's opening act, where Nolan and his DOP, Wally Pfister, got a real opportunity to open the frame up and present some sweeping imagery, both outside the training compound and in. The muddier, rusted look used for the main body of the film (i.e. Gotham City), while nice in parts, wasn't particularly inspiring. If you load up some clips on YouTube, which can be BRUTAL to films with less-than-amazing cinematography, "Batman Begins" looks extremely dull and insipid. There's nothing eye-catching or intriguing about most of the photography. Compared to Burton's twisted production design and clever use of light and shadow, mist / fog and monochrome and colour, "Begins" is extremely plain and unimaginative.

If you really want to experience films framed by masterminds that REALLY feel like paintings, then look into the work of brilliant directors like Fritz Lang, Orson Welles, Charlie Chaplin, François Truffaut, Victor Fleming, Jen-Luc Godard, Alfred Hitchcock, Stanley Kubrick, Martin Scorsese, David Lean, John Ford, Akira Kurosawa, Francis Ford Coppola, Ingmar Bergman, Robert Wise, Andrei Tarkovsky, Leni Riefenstahl, Robert Altman, Roman Polanski, Ken Russell, Sam Peckinpah, Don Siegel, Sergio Leone, Milos Forman, Ridley Scott, David Lynch, Clint Eastwood, The Coen Brothers, Terry Gilliam, Tim Burton, Quentin Tarantino, Steven Spielberg, George Lucas et al.

Now, there ARE things that I DON'T like about "Begins".... such as the quick-editing action, of course. The way I see it... a painter isn't good at painting EVERYTHING. If you specialize in caricatures, you can't expect to be a master at landscapes. In my opinion, I would've been okay with NO ACTION in this film, but obviously Nolan knew that he had to do it... since it IS a Batman film, and people are expecting an action movie instead of a intellectual Godfather-ish movie.

Do you realise how you sound here? Batman is a comic book character and a crime fighter -- he's meant to get into visually arresting / dynamic situations. Saying you would have been "okay" with no action in the film is like saying you wouldn't have minded two hours of talking in "Star Wars". These films are meant to have an exuberant carny thrill to them. Remove that element and you're left with less than nothing. Nolan was wrong for this film, in my opinion, and the butchering of the action sequences is testament to that. Then again, given how much of a studio-based package that BB feels (from the big-name cast, to the "real" Batmobile, to the brainless one-liners), I'm not sure if anyone would have been "right" for it.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I'm convinced that Batman Begins is the greatest film ever made.

Call me crazy if you want, I don't care.....doctors say it all the time, pfffftt....what do doctors even know anyway?

 

[The Joker]

I'm convinced that Batman Begins is the greatest film ever made.

Call me crazy if you want, I don't care.....doctors say it all the time, pfffftt....what do doctors even know anyway?

You're crazy

Seriously, it is a good movie. But to think it's the greatest film ever made is ludicrous, IMO. There are so many more greater movies with much more solid performances and plot lines.

It's your opinion and all, but I think you've got really low standards if you think that's the best Hollywood has ever given.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Well, I am an under achiever.

It's my favorite character ever........in my favorite genre ever.

I'm sure my opinion of Batman Begins being the best is just as valid as someone else's. Just b/c it's a supehero film doesn't make it any less valid, I think.

Meh......it's MY favorite ever. So that's that. Of course, I could be seduced by The Dark Knight....

 

[EagleVision]

Well, I certainly like your enthusiasm; and how you didn't like any of the Spider-Man movies I surely do not know; however I can't agree with you on BB being the best fim ever made but I respect your opinion. I'm a big movie fan and of course huge Batfan since the toddler days and yes, BB is the best Batman movie to date, but certainly not in my opinion of all time. That's a lot of movie history and a big statement to make. I don't personally have a real favorite movie either. I do think though that TDK will be so unbelieveably well done, that not only will it blow BB out of the air but might even be the greatest comic book movie adaptation when released. Let's hope so because currently Spider-Man 2 takes the cake although its summer '07 successor may rank supreme.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I dunno.....I like the Spidey flicks...but don't dig all the praise it gets.

 

[The Chairman]

If Batman Begins is the best movie you've ever seen, you're in dire need of seeing more movies. It's no doubt very well made and well acted, but it's not the greatest movie ever made.

There's some guidelines for a film to be considered one of the greatest or the greatest. It has to make have a legitamte influence upon the filmmaking world, which it surely didn't have. It has to feature every actor at the top of their game, and every actor in the film has been done better work. These are just two I can think of. BB has neither.

It's no doubt a very good film, but it as far as The Best Film ever, it wouldn't even register in a Top 100.

 

[CConn]

...there's no set standard for determining the best movies ever, Anthony.

In any case, I dunno why people have to say best instead of just favorite. When you said best, everyone's on your ass immediately because they don't agree with you, yet if you say favorite, no one can really complain.

 

[Castlewood]

I give up. Nobody is quite getting it.

 

[The Chairman]

...there's no set standard for determining the best movies ever, Anthony.

Um, not necessarily. There's definitely some aspects that are involved for a film to be truly considered among best. There are thousands of great movies otut here, but not all of them can be considered the best.

 

[Killgore]

My friends make fun of me because I'm a movie buff. They name any movie, and I can tell you the director, the actors, quotes, etc. I memorized alot of Fight Club. I'm obsessed with Pulp Fiction, The Matrix, Vanilla Sky, American Psycho, Se7en, Cast Away, Memento, Heat, Crash.

You do know that there were movies made before 1995. And some of them might be considered to be good.

You name it. I've seen it.

So you've seen Citizen Kane, Vertigo, Blade Runner, Gold Rush, Modern Times, The Graduate, On the Waterfront, Singin' In the Rain, North by Northwest, Some Like It Hot, Lolita, Stalag 17, Sunset Boulevard, Marnie, Double Indemnity, To Kill a Mockingbird, Cool Hand Luke, All the President's Men, White Heat, Bull Durham, Bridge on the River Kwai, The Long Good Friday, Rear Window, Charade, Breakfast at Tiffany's, 8 1/2, Wild Strawberries, The Seventh Seal, Rashomon, Ran, The Color Purple, A Night To Remember, Metropolis, M, The Third Man, Touch of Evil, The Apartment, Ben Hur, Giant, Raging Bull, Taxi Driver, Network, Nosferatu, Blazing Saddles, Young Frankenstein, Annie Hall, Manhattan, Crimes and Misdemeanors, Patton, Notorious, Suspicion, Spartacus, Casablanca, The Godfather, Apocalypse Now, The Deer Hunter, The Killing Fields, Blue Velvet, Eraserhead, Pink Flamingos, Midnight Cowboy, Rosemary's Baby and Psycho?

 

[Castlewood]

So you've seen Citizen Kane, Vertigo, Blade Runner, Gold Rush, Modern Times, The Graduate, On the Waterfront, Singin' In the Rain, North by Northwest, Some Like It Hot, Lolita, Stalag 17, Sunset Boulevard, Marnie, Double Indemnity, To Kill a Mockingbird, Cool Hand Luke, All the President's Men, White Heat, Bull Durham, Bridge on the River Kwai, The Long Good Friday, Rear Window, Charade, Breakfast at Tiffany's, 8 1/2, Wild Strawberries, The Seventh Seal, Rashomon, Ran, The Color Purple, A Night To Remember, Metropolis, M, The Third Man, Touch of Evil, The Apartment, Ben Hur, Giant, Raging Bull, Taxi Driver, Network, Nosferatu, Blazing Saddles, Young Frankenstein, Annie Hall, Manhattan, Crimes and Misdemeanors, Patton, Notorious, Suspicion, Spartacus, Casablanca, The Godfather, Apocalypse Now, The Deer Hunter, The Killing Fields, Blue Velvet, Eraserhead, Pink Flamingos, Midnight Cowboy, Rosemary's Baby and Psycho?

Actually, yes!! But nice try.

The bold ones are the best out of the list, too (in my opinion).

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

My friends make fun of me because I'm a movie buff. They name any movie, and I can tell you the director, the actors, quotes, etc. I memorized alot of Fight Club. I'm obsessed with Pulp Fiction, The Matrix, Vanilla Sky, American Psycho, Se7en, Cast Away, Memento, Heat, Crash.

You name it. I've seen it.

No movie matches the quality and brilliance of Batman Begins.

It's a bold statement, and some of you might laugh... but allow me to explain.

You see, aside from the fact that this was "the big return" after 8 years of being trapped in the mist of Schumacher's Fart known as Batman & Robin.... this movie means alot more than just that... to me, at least.

The funny thing you have to realize is, if Batman Begins was on HBO one day, and "the average movie-goer" flipped to the channel just as little Bruce was falling down the well, he/she would have NO CLUE that this was a Batman movie, and that's what I love about it. If you don't know who Bruce Wayne is, then you'll have no clue what this movie IS until an hour into it, when Batman himself suddenly shows up. It's so damn brilliant.

I think Nolan seriously treated this movie like it was The Godfather of superhero movies. Honestly... this movie is the best of the bunch, and goddammit, I think it's one of the best movies ever made. Bare with me, it gets worse...

Everytime I pop the DVD in, and I hear those bats flapping, the WB logo in Black&White, and then those thousands of bats flying across the screen, I get so PUMPED. It feels like I'm seeing it for the first time again. No movie I own gives me as much replay value as this does.

It's not even the fact that I'm a huge Batman fan. It's just a damn good movie! I completely despise Spider-Man, and I hated the movies, but if Nolan would've made Spider-Man Begins, and had it be that movie instead of Batman, I would've respected Spider-Man Begins just as much. It has nothing to do with the fact that I'm a Batman fanboy. Hopefully that makes sense?? Nolan's an amazing director, basically.

It's the little things about this movie that make it my all-time favorite:

- The Birthday party sequence (Liam Neeson's speech, with Bale's interactions).
- Cillian Murphy's acting. "He's here. The Batmaaaan."
- Virtually anything that Michael Caine did. The emotions from this man during the scene after the funeral are superb.
- Gary Oldman's simple approach.
- Tom Wilkinson's acting during the restaurant scene.

- When we first see Liam Neeson in the jail cell, and the music builds as he explains to Bale: "But, if you make yourself MORE than just a man, if you devote yourself to an ideal, and if THEY can't stop you... you become something else entirely." ---- Pay attention to this scene in particular... the way the chords in the music progress and go higher as they cut to Liam's face as he says "And if THEY can't stop you".... and then when they cut back to his face as he says "A legend, Mr. Wayne"... watch how the frame is closer to his face than before. That's GOOD directing, dammit!!

- When Bale goes down into the cave, and the bats fly around him, and that music just builds... and builds... and EXPLODES, followed by a quick cut to Cillian Murphy's line "No more favors".

Nolan's eye for the camera is just so impressive. He has a real instinct, much like a painter knows how to move the brush on the canvas. This is a real "art film", in my opinion. It has "art" to it. It FEELS like looking at a painting and being moved by it, but you don't know why. The scene where Batman is standing on top of the building, motionless like a gargoyle overlooking the city as the camera pans around him and suddenly stops... that MOVES me.

Now, there ARE things that I DON'T like about "Begins".... such as the quick-editing action, of course. The way I see it... a painter isn't good at painting EVERYTHING. If you specialize in caricatures, you can't expect to be a master at landscapes. In my opinion, I would've been okay with NO ACTION in this film, but obviously Nolan knew that he had to do it... since it IS a Batman film, and people are expecting an action movie instead of a intellectual Godfather-ish movie.


So yeah... this is the greatest movie I've ever seen. As many movies as I've seen, and out of all the favorites on my long, LONG list, this one takes the cake by A LOT. And as much as I'm excited to see "The Dark Knight", I'm just not sure that it will hit me on an emotional level like this one did. This one started it all. This one set the gold standard.... and you can SEE how other movies are trying to "copy" it now. As Oldman said at the end, "You really started something." Nolan did, indeed.

Your enthusiasm is infectious!

And yes, Batman Begins is an instant classic!

 

[zer00]

you're not a movie buff if you think that

 

[Cryogenic]

You do know that there were movies made before 1995. And some of them might be considered to be good.



So you've seen Citizen Kane, Vertigo, Blade Runner, Gold Rush, Modern Times, The Graduate, On the Waterfront, Singin' In the Rain, North by Northwest, Some Like It Hot, Lolita, Stalag 17, Sunset Boulevard, Marnie, Double Indemnity, To Kill a Mockingbird, Cool Hand Luke, All the President's Men, White Heat, Bull Durham, Bridge on the River Kwai, The Long Good Friday, Rear Window, Charade, Breakfast at Tiffany's, 8 1/2, Wild Strawberries, The Seventh Seal, Rashomon, Ran, The Color Purple, A Night To Remember, Metropolis, M, The Third Man, Touch of Evil, The Apartment, Ben Hur, Giant, Raging Bull, Taxi Driver, Network, Nosferatu, Blazing Saddles, Young Frankenstein, Annie Hall, Manhattan, Crimes and Misdemeanors, Patton, Notorious, Suspicion, Spartacus, Casablanca, The Godfather, Apocalypse Now, The Deer Hunter, The Killing Fields, Blue Velvet, Eraserhead, Pink Flamingos, Midnight Cowboy, Rosemary's Baby and Psycho?

Nice list!

And it can easily go on from there:

City Lights, Triumph Of The Will, The Searchers, Stagecoach, Lawrence Of Arabia, Dr Shivago, Paths Of Glory, Dr Strangelove Or: How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Bomb, 2001: A Space Odyssey, A Clockwork Orange, The Shining, Full Metal Jacket, Eyes Wide Shut, Carrie, The Untouchables, Once Upon A Time In America, Miller's Crossing, Solaris, Cape Fear, Bonnie And Clyde, One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, Amadeus, Dirty Harry, Straw Dogs, Angela's Ashes, The Blues Brothers, When Harry Met Sally, Saturday Night Fever, The Elephant Man, Seven Samurai, A Streetcar Named Desire, Sophie's Choice, Dog Day Afternoon, All Quiet On The Western Front

And on...

 

[CConn]

Um, not necessarily. There's definitely some aspects that are involved for a film to be truly considered among best. There are thousands of great movies otut here, but not all of them can be considered the best.

Obviously, but the standards you gave, they're highly flawed. For instance...

"It has to make have a legitamte influence upon the filmmaking world, which it surely didn't have."

BB has been out only a year an a half. No where near enough time to tell if it has influenced anyone. Granted, it probably won't, but we don't know that for sure. Not to mention, a movie like Superman: The Movie did have a great influence upon filmmaking and superhero movies. Does that make it one of the greatest movies ever? Better than Citizen Kane? IMO, it doesn't at all.

"It has to feature every actor at the top of their game, and every actor in the film has been done better work. These are just two I can think of. BB has neither."

How about a film like the Godfather? Pacino may have been at his best. But I'd argue Brando's earlier work was superior to what he did in The Godfather. Likewise for Diane Keaton, and a few others. Does that mean The Godfather isn't a great movie? Isn't a classic? Of course not.

I'm not trying to argue BB is one of the best movies ever. I don't believe it is. But, IMO at least, the only reason The Godfather or Citizen Kane is considered the best movie ever is because that's simply what most people say. It's all opinion. And the only thing nearing fact is the majority opinion.

 

[The Chairman]

Obviously, but the standards you gave, they're highly flawed. For instance...

"It has to make have a legitamte influence upon the filmmaking world, which it surely didn't have."

BB has been out only a year an a half. No where near enough time to tell if it has influenced anyone. Granted, it probably won't, but we don't know that for sure. Not to mention, a movie like Superman: The Movie did have a great influence upon filmmaking and superhero movies. Does that make it one of the greatest movies ever? Better than Citizen Kane? IMO, it doesn't at all.

BB I don't think will ever have a major impact. It's not the flawless piece of cinema that people make it out to be. The problems with it are ultimately minor, but they nonetheless detract it from being as perfect as some of the ultra obsessive fanboys make it out to be.

And yes, I do agree on Superman: The Movie in that it did essentially invent the comic book movie genre. It's undoubtedly the most important comic book movie ever made, and it's unlikely any other film in the genre will ever have as much an impact.

I completely disagree with you. Brando was never better IMO than in The Godfather. I've seen his early work, and it's no doubt incredible, but his performance as Don Corleone is generally regarded as the greatest performance of all time. Plus, in addition to Pacino, when have most of the rest of the cast been any better? Granted, Keaton had Annie Hall, and Duvall had Apocolypse Now, but James Caan and John Cazale, among others, have never been better.

I'm not trying to argue BB is one of the best movies ever. I don't believe it is. But, IMO at least, the only reason The Godfather or Citizen Kane is considered the best movie ever is because that's simply what most people say. It's all opinion. And the only thing nearing fact is the majority opinion.

Well, yes, it's opinion. But you have to consider why so many people share that opinion. Citizen Kane and The Godfather both managed to have an impact on cinema that went beyond that of most films.

Citizen Kane, I'll admit I haven't seen, but I do know from research that it was one of the most complex films cinema had seen up to that point, and was also very important in the field of cinematography.

The Godfather featured a performance as the finest of all time, and also featured a number of breakthrough performances by a great number of actors. It also broke many taboos in terms of violence, and also in many ways set the standards fro hwo most book to film adaptations should be done.