Utopia part 2- the end of poverty, crime, hopelessness, and depression

[ShadowBoxing]

This is nice and all, but it's highly academic. I don't know how old you are Spider-Bite, I myself am not that old. But I have already had experiences with the "real world". Holding a job, paying bills, loans, girlfriends, taking care of responsibilities, being responsible for others around me. It's not all "pretty, happy and gay", but that's life. It isn't Governments place to step in and provide for me what I cannot get myself, nor would I want it to be. Sure Government should provide education, defense, maybe even help people find a job...but handouts are always a bad idea.

Capitalism rewards work ethic, and too a lesser extent selfishness and detemination. These are all very important parts of the human condition. In the "state of nature" mankind got by on only these things. Those willing to sacrifice and work the hardest to survive, did...and reproduced. Those who chose to sit around and wait for some big sovereign power to intervene, I suspect, died.

Humans ultimately need proper motivation to work. Either by force or by reward. Capitalism provides reward, whereas harsh dictatorships provide punishment. Even for religion to work these must be some goal, afterlife, or social/moral gain those involved get out of it. No action, outside of giving one's own life, is totally selfless. As long as you desire to continue living you have to at some point put the needs of yourself ahead of others. As long as you wish your family to succeed at some point there needs, however irrational it may seem, must go ahead of the needs of others.

Socrates in the Republic does an excellent job of showing how the Republic would not work because of female/male attraction, love of one's own, and the folly of philosopher king's power(although he uses it as an allegory for the soul). As a result, his Republic falls in the final act.

Utopia is a pipe-dream, we can create good Government...but never perfect Government. If we were angels perhaps this would be the case, but we be men. Mortals, who ultimately will die and need some interesting diversion between now and our untimely demise.

 

[Mr. Smash'n Bash]

All we need is bigfoot.

 

[Spider-Bite]

Nooooo....that's the reason your "plan" is going to go the way of the Soviet Union, which by the way was Socialist. And you think that's a diverse area with lots of internal stryfe, try living in the world.

the soviet unioin did do my plan. It's never been done before, because technology hasn't come far enough to do it yet. You clearly have not even read my plan. just freaking read the first post in this thread. You have expressed your anti-socialist views, but read my plan, and specifically attack my plan as opposed to other socialism plans.

 

[Addendum]

All we need is bigfoot.

Here you go

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OAvCkQys6SA

 

[ShadowBoxing]

the soviet unioin did do my plan. It's never been done before, because technology hasn't come far enough to do it yet. You clearly have not even read my plan. just freaking read the first post in this thread. You have expressed your anti-socialist views, but read my plan, and specifically attack my plan as opposed to other socialism plans.

I read your plan when I entered the thread. It's a poorly written, poorly strung together line of logic with no factual backing. Happy.

Especially the part about mandatory martial arts teaching. You honestly think that will teach kids discipline Are you on crack. The most violent people to come into both my College boxing class and home boxing gym were martial artists. They strike me as supremely arrogant, and furthermore martial arts is a waste of time as exercise. I know tons of fat martial artists who gloat about themselves as if they are Bruce Lee when my weight lifting, balance and speed training probably makes me ten times more effective a fighter than they will EVER be. (Hell, I laughed out loud when a 3rd don Akido instructor could move me after giving this big lecture about how akido moves unmoveable objects.t: Guess I was too strong for him, he did tell me to resist).

 

[Mr. Smash'n Bash]

Here you go

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OAvCkQys6SA

Perfect.

 

[StorminNorman]

Spider's ideas are very similar to every other Socialist-based plan: Good in Theory, but not practical in reality.

 

[hippie_hunter]

the soviet unioin did do my plan. It's never been done before, because technology hasn't come far enough to do it yet. You clearly have not even read my plan. just freaking read the first post in this thread. You have expressed your anti-socialist views, but read my plan, and specifically attack my plan as opposed to other socialism plans.

Your plan has too much faith in government and people. Socialism will lead to dictatorship. History has already proven that. The Soviet Union, China, Cuba, Yugoslavia, East Germany, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, North Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Bulgaria, Romania, Congo, Afganistan, Albania, Benin, Angola, Ethiopia, Grenada, Mozambique, Somalia, South Yemen. All of them all/were socialist nations and all of them had dictatorships which oppressed its people. We are seeing Hugo Chavez of Venezuela becomming a dictator in his country. The creators of socialism may have had the interests of the people and the worker but failed to see the flaws of man, who tend to bend ideals for their own self-interests.

 

[Spider-Bite]

Naive? Hardly. Believing large companies are looking out for the good of the world and its consumers is naive.

That's what I said it was naive to believe. That's why we need congressional oversight.

Believing that a government could successfully control the market is naive.

not really. it could. I tend to think we should influence it as we have successfully been doing for decades. According to your logic, we shouldn't even have any laws whatsoever, because it's naive to think we can control everybody.

Believing that an industry will do its best to come up with the next form of energy everyone is going to be dependent on, in order for them to make a killing, is hardly naive.

That's why socialism is required.

It is not the companies job to look out for the good of mankind as a whole, it is their job to look out for themselves. If a company has the ability to make affordable, environmentally friendly cars that would rely on a new form of energy they can create and sell - they would do so.

I have my own energy plan. I plan to post it soon. It's very socialist.

The world would benefit from this greatly, but the company and its investors would benefit even more.

Look sometimes a result will be acheived by government influence, and sometimes it wont. Bush took us out of the Kyoto treaty, and look what happened. Emissions went up in this country. had he not done that, investors would have had time to plan ahead, and they would have invested in ways to meat the protocalls, because it would have been the only way to protect their investments.

Exactly. So if you FORCE companies to only make Hybrid cars - then you are going to drive up the price of automobiles as a whole and thus hurt millions of people who now have to make the choice of having to spend thousands of dollars on the cheapest car on the market - or spend that money on something else...like food...or shelter.

Small part of my own energy plan, which would actually result in freeing a lot of money up for the consumer.

Bull. The Government would still be paying the bill. A School gets X amount of money (I believe $3000) for every student that attends a public school. In a free educational market, the government would not be the ones to decide which school that money goes to -- the parents would. The current system SCREWS minorities, it SCREWS the poor. Their children are stuck in underperforming schools - and they can not afford to go else where. My system would save them, they would now have the option of sending their children to the same schools - or schools of equal quality - as everyone else.

How would they pay for this? Seroiusly. If your plan was enacted me and my entire neighborhood which I grew up in as a child, would have had NO school. Not a better one, we'd have no school at all. My mother could never, ever, afford the cost of a private school. We could barely afford rent. You think 20 dollars a month is enough to pay for teaching a kid, let alone two kids?

If there is an inner-city area where all of the schools are bad, someone would open a school that demands high standards. Why? Not because they want to help educate the children of this neighborhood (though I am sure that would be a factor), but because then they would the most students, and thus the most money. It rewards success and punishes failure.

So it opens up in a poor run down neighborhood, where none of the parents have any money. How is that school going to be funded? There would be no way for that school to make money. Your out of touch with how the world works, and what life is like for people who have struggled. I don't think you quite understand how the economy works. Some people have to wear hand me downs, while others shop at the GAP. Opening a new business with high standards sounds nice in theory, but the truth is they will only issue those high standards if they can still make money off of them. The poor people will get the lower quality schools.

Read above, it would PROMOTE equality.

Not really. The good schools will cost more than the crap schools. Poor people, mostly black, will go to crap schools, and and middle class people, mostly white, will go to better schools. All kinds of schools will open up for different kinds of people who want their children not to be taught certain things, such as evolution, or the big bang.

If a parent wants to send their children to a religious - who are you to tell them they can't? If you are a parent and wants to send your children to a school that promotes atheism - who are they to tell them you can't? The decision would be put in your hands, not the governments and not anyone elses. Thats the key.

yeah and if I want my kid to grow up hating gays and blacks, under your situation you think I wouldn't be able to find one that suits my needs?

I don't want America turning into the middle east, that's why i want it in the government's hands. History has proven that society's are capable of taking terrible directions. It will happen again, unless we intervene ahead of time and plan ahead. We can't just leave well enough alone and assume it wont happen again.

No, there are many private schools that operate in low-income areas who have very low tuition rates and yet still have very high results. If it was simply a case of "rich kids = better results", then how do you explain the public schools of other countries performing substantially higher than the public schools of America?

let's see China. A highly disciplined life style. America. twinkies and video games.

LOL. You force discipline and you make rebells. You increase tensions between students and faculty. You make the problem worse. My School Board imposed a new school uniform policy - increasing discipline. Instead of lowering violence and increasing school unity, it divided the lines between teacher and student even more with no decrease in school violence.

Nowhere in my plan did I say students should wear uniforms.


I

disagree with your idea completely - yet I have never simply said, its bad - period. I am showing you the flaws, or at least what I see is flaws.

You have shown me what you believe to be flaws in OTHER socilism plans. Not mine.

If a person wants to be an actor more than anything, and will be unhappy unless he is an actor - do you force an industry to give him work, just because he would be unhappy anywhere else? No.

No you give him financial security so instead of 40 hours flipping burgers, he spends 40 hours practicing.

People have to determine would is most important to them. If it is their careers - then they have the chance to rise. It will require sacrifices - but it can happen.

My best friend wanted to be a marine biologist. He unintentionally got a women pregnant at age 21, before he even got to college. He couldn't afford to take care of his kid if he was in college for the next 10 years. Look how that turned out. I want people to have healthy families and healthy goals that they pursue. I want people to have both.

If people place a higher importance on family, then they have to be willing to work a job they may not love for the good of their family.
Thats life.

A lot of times I feel that republicans don't merely disagree on how to improve life, but they actually oppose a higher quality of life. You just proved yourself to be an example of that. You don't want it to get better than it is. You want it to stay the same, which is where the term conservative comes from.

I am not saying the government does have its place in the lives of its constituency -- however I don't want a government playing a large role in my life. If the government wants to increase spending in a certain area (say embryonic stem cell research), fine. But allow companies to bid for that funding - do not have the government itself do it.

The idea is for the government to free your individuality from the confines and oppressions of society. If the government didn't do that we wouldn't be able to step outside of our house. if the government hadn't assisted my mother when I was a teenager with socialism housing, we would have been homeless. So really there is nothing at all you can say that refutes that or trumps that. Without socialism the rich crush the weak and the gap grows just like it did while Bush was president. The rich got a lot richer, and everybody else got poorer. The poverty rate is millions higher than it was when Clinton was president.

The numbers prove socialism is required. yes the stock market is back. The economy is back, but the people aren't.

 

[Kritish]

As technology advances gradually over the next century technology will replace human workers in the work place. They can be cheaper than humans, more efficent, work harder, without tiring or complaining.

If we do nothing the middle class would disappear into poverty. There simply wouldn't be any jobs left, because machines would be doing everything. But imagine this.

50 or even a hundred years from now when this threat starts becoming reality, the government steps in. Every job than can be performed by machines is now performed by machines, and the money that those businesses would have otherwise had to spend on employees will now get taken out in the form of a payroll tax which will then be evenly dispursed in the form of a paycheck to every citizen whom is not wealthy.

Now this creates some problems and opportunities. Laziness, boredom, obesity, and unfullfillness are the problems.

This can be adressed with our education system. First we make school two hours a day longer than it is now, and we make students go to school three years longer. We introduce martial arts into the curriculum, so that students are spending an hour and a half a day studying martial arts. This will give them discipline, and the will power to complete goals in life. When they become an adult they will prefer to live active lives, and seek out goals to accomplish. They will be disciplined and less likely to commit crime. They will be healthy as well which promotes overall good feeling and happiness, as well as reduction in stress, which will effect everything they do and every feeling they have.

We also introduce a pre-emptive phychology class. Right now criminals are rehabillitated. many people feel this is a waste of time, but it's not. It only takes one out of so many intelligent people working in that field to have a lightbulb go off in their head, and come up with a new technique or idea or understanding and pass that onto other Doctors, and suddenly the science advances.

Based on advancements that come from phychology we have students study a class for a few years to protect them from depression, criminal behavior, molesting children, drug addiction, laziness and anything that would hurt them. We teach them to understand their own emotions and thinking cycles, and to understand other people, and how to raise their children better.

Right now too many people work to put food on the table and not for fullfillment. one out of so many jobs will need to be performed by humans, and many people will want to do them out of boredom. The necessary scientists will be there and so on. This way people will have more opportunities and less burdon.

We also can give tax cuts to promote succesful businesses that teach people how to paint, sing, play piano, football, or whatever.


The combination of financial security, physhcological treatment, and opportunities to choose their own desitny, instead of circumstances choosing it for you will create a very happy environement. When you combine that will parents who also had those opportunies you have a very happy home life as well, with parents who actually had time to spend with you. With parents who weren't effected by stress or lack of understanding.

Combine the fact that a kid who is growing up with that, is also surrounded by peers who grew up with that. We can totally eliminate anybody from becoming a victim of society. We can end poverty and misery at the same time and give people the power and discipline to take control over their own life.

Each generation would grow up healtheir, happier, and as better people than the previous one. I think this would bring a crime rate dramatically lower than even China's, and the would be criminals instead grow up to be happy productive members of society with a healthy social life.

Unrealistic, you have too much faith in humans doing the right thing.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Based on advancements that come from phychology we have students study a class for a few years to protect them from depression, criminal behavior, molesting children, drug addiction, laziness and anything that would hurt them. We teach them to understand their own emotions and thinking cycles, and to understand other people, and how to raise their children better.

1) Learn to spell phsycology, it might help to learn to spell in general actually.

2) This whole part reaks of 1984 and Equilibrium and any other book/movie/comic that explored youth driven "re-education" campaigns. Hitler liked those too you know. He weeded out criminal behavior, poor workmanship and tons of other "morals", he also felt the need to throw in "Hatred of Jews" as well. I don't want schools and ESPECIALLY the Government telling my children what is it to be a "good person" or a "good citizen". That's part my job but moreso there job to determine those things through their own life experience thank you very much.

There is no such thing as a "thinking cycle".

 

[Kritish]

I'm not going to create an entire thread just to state what I think would create a better government. Here's my plan (note I never call it a 'utopia' nor do I say it would be perfect).

1. Free health care, the United States has the money to do that.
2. Government funded colleges for students, people that want to go to "good colleges" like Harvard and Yale still can but they have to pay for it unlike the free ones
3. An isolationist stance towards non NATO allies.

 

[hippie_hunter]

let's see China. A highly disciplined life style. America. twinkies and video games.

Let's see China. A dictatorship run by an oppressive regime that does not allow free speech, dissidence, democracy, etc. America. If we want our lives run by Twinkies and video games so be it, if we want to work hard to be a success so be it.

Without socialism the rich crush the weak and the gap grows just like it did while Bush was president. The rich got a lot richer, and everybody else got poorer. The poverty rate is millions higher than it was when Clinton was president.

The numbers prove socialism is required. yes the stock market is back. The economy is back, but the people aren't.

The poverty rate has only increased 1 freaking percent. That is not a big deal. Poverty is required in society, even though it is an ugly thing.

The numbers and history have proven that capitalism works to a certain degree and socialism fails and leads to dictatorship.

 

[Kritish]

Let's see China. A dictatorship run by an oppressive regime that does not allow free speech, dissidence, democracy, etc. America. If we want our lives run by Twinkies and video games so be it, if we want to work hard to be a success so be it.



The poverty rate has only increased 1 freaking percent. That is not a big deal. Poverty is required in society, even though it is an ugly thing.

The numbers and history have proven that capitalism works to a certain degree and socialism fails and leads to dictatorship.

China's changing, I think within a few decades they'll have as much freedom as we do.

 

[Abaddon]

2) This whole part reaks of 1984 and Equilibrium and any other book/movie/comic that explored youth driven "re-education" campaigns. Hitler liked those too you know. He weeded out criminal behavior, poor workmanship and tons of other "morals", he also felt the need to throw in "Hatred of Jews" as well. I don't want schools and ESPECIALLY the Government telling my children what is it to be a "good person" or a "good citizen". That's part my job but moreso there job to determine those things through their own life experience thank you very much.

And look at how far that's got us.

 

[hippie_hunter]

China's changing, I think within a few decades they'll have as much freedom as we do.

China's changing because the government feared that it was on the path of the Soviet Union (incidents like Tianamen Square) and their government collapsed. Hence why they are in the process of adopting, guess what? Capitalism! Now China has become one of the largest economies in the world, a major world power on par with the G8, and a "threat" to American dominance in the world.

 

[Kritish]

Both extremes make no sense, pure capitalism leads to the rich getting richer and poor getting poorer. While pure socialism won't do any good in the long run either. There's a balance called "democratic socialism". Most of the European nations have adopted a form of that.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I don't want America turning into the middle east, that's why i want it in the government's hands. History has proven that society's are capable of taking terrible directions. It will happen again, unless we intervene ahead of time and plan ahead. We can't just leave well enough alone and assume it wont happen again.

Funny you should mention the middle east where the Government essentially controls every aspect of people's lives. Kinda like what you're suggesting.

let's see China. A highly disciplined life style. America. twinkies and video games.

I have a VERY disciplines lifestyle thank you very much. So much so I have a friend now (like's comics) who says I would rival Hal Jordan as a Green Lantern, my personal trainer says I have more will power and pain tolerance than anyone he has ever trained, my Professors say I am a gifted student...not to toot my own horn mind you, just illustrating that is a HUGE generalization.

And what's better, I am that way because I CHOOSE to be. Chinese people live in oppression, it's conform or die. Not much of an option if you ask me.

 

[Kritish]

China's changing because the government feared that it was on the path of the Soviet Union (incidents like Tianamen Square) and their government collapsed. Hence why they are in the process of adopting, guess what? Capitalism! Now China has become one of the largest economies in the world, a major world power on par with the G8, and a "threat" to American dominance in the world.

You act as if capitalism is a perfect answer to the world. I'm not advocating either extremes. But I think that both sides have valid points.
Carl Marx wouldn't have been proud of the Soviet Union. But his idea was unrealistic, you can't trust people with that much power. Nor can you trust companies to do anything they want.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

And look at how far that's got us.

What's that suppose to mean. We have a highly efficient work force in America, morally we do not have any major indignations as of late, universial sufferage, extension of rights (both at home and in other Democracies).

America, thankfully, doesn't yet determine the morals for it's people.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Both extremes make no sense, pure capitalism leads to the rich getting richer and poor getting poorer. While pure socialism won't do any good in the long run either. There's a balance called "democratic socialism". Most of the European nations have adopted a form of that.

I agree about pure capitalism and pure socialism.

However, democratic socialism is mixed goods. It's worked in Scandinavia. But in France it's really starting to bite them in the ass.

 

[Kritish]

What's with all the China bashing? They aren't done yet, give them time. Germany didn't act like it does not right after the Nazi's got out of power.

 

[Kritish]

I agree about pure capitalism and pure socialism.

However, democratic socialism is mixed goods. It's worked in Scandinavia. But in France it's really starting to bite them in the ass.

That's because France has become too liberal for its own good. I'm no fan of neo-cons but they've gotton just plain stupid.
I doubt that we'll turn into pinkos in a communist dictatorship just because we get free colleges and health care.

 

[Addendum]

My best friend wanted to be a marine biologist. He unintentionally got a women pregnant at age 21, before he even got to college. He couldn't afford to take care of his kid if he was in college for the next 10 years. Look how that turned out.

Tough ****. It's his fault for not keeping his dick in his pants.

 

[hippie_hunter]

You act as if capitalism is a perfect answer to the world. I'm not advocating either extremes. But I think that both sides have valid points.
Carl Marx wouldn't have been proud of the Soviet Union. But his idea was unrealistic, you can't trust people with that much power. Nor can you trust companies to do anything they want.

Oh no, I do not beleive that at all. It is not perfect and some degrees of government control is required. If there was no government control we would have the employer screwing over the worker (when both should have that ability), the enviroment would be completely destroyed, and the poor would have no chance at all in making it in the real world in today's enviroment. I'm just saying that pure socialism has failed and adopting capitalism (not pure capitalism) is what works.