Utopia part 2- the end of poverty, crime, hopelessness, and depression

[Spider-Bite]

I read your plan when I entered the thread. It's a poorly written, poorly strung together line of logic with no factual backing. Happy.

Sorry. I was multi tasking when I wrote it. I usually am when I'm at these boards.

Especially the part about mandatory martial arts teaching. You honestly think that will teach kids discipline Are you on crack. The most violent people to come into both my College boxing class and home boxing gym were martial artists.

it depends on the school the students come from. I myself studied taekwondo at two different schools. One school was very traditionalist. The students there were excellent at what they did. They didn't drink, smoke, or do anything. They were all like goody two shoes. The instructor played a role in their lives besides teaching them how to fight. They had to do mandatory push ups every day based on their report cards and everything. i joined at an older age, and I had to do 500 over the course of a week just for having bad grades before i had been there. I saw him having a long sit down talk with a 12 year old because that kid had been in a fight at school.

The other school I went to wasn't that traditional. The students did not have as good of skill development, and the instructor bragged about how when his daughter brings home a new boyfriend he has a talk with him in his room where his sword collection is stored.

They strike me as supremely arrogant, and furthermore martial arts is a waste of time as exercise. I know tons of fat martial artists who gloat about themselves as if they are Bruce Lee when my weight lifting, balance and speed training probably makes me ten times more effective a fighter than they will EVER be. (Hell, I laughed out loud when a 3rd don Akido instructor could move me after giving this big lecture about how akido moves unmoveable objects.t: Guess I was too strong for him, he did tell me to resist).

The point is to make the students work hard, and give them something they feel good about, as well as improve their health. unfortantely in America most martial arts schools suck, because it's been too commercialized. Too many people care about profit more than they care about actually teaching the customer martial arts. A good schools is much more demanding than a crappy one, therefore most schools are crappy, because most Americans wont spend money to go to a place where they will actually break up a sweat or push their body to the max.

That's capitalism for ya. It ruined martial arts in America. A martial artist should be taught not to talk crap about his opponent before competing, the way they do in Ultimate Fighting. I don't deny those guys can fight, but they set a bad example for children.

 

[hippie_hunter]

My best friend wanted to be a marine biologist. He unintentionally got a women pregnant at age 21, before he even got to college. He couldn't afford to take care of his kid if he was in college for the next 10 years. Look how that turned out. I want people to have healthy families and healthy goals that they pursue. I want people to have both.

Your friend should have used this:

This:

Or this:

He screwed himself over. Sex has consequences.

 

[hippie_hunter]

That's because France has become too liberal for its own good. I'm no fan of neo-cons but they've gotton just plain stupid.
I doubt that we'll turn into pinkos in a communist dictatorship just because we get free colleges and health care.

I don't think that we'll end up that way if free college and health care came. For those issues, it just really depends on a person's opinion on government's role and responsibility to determine if you're for it or against it.

 

[Spider-Bite]

Let's see China. A dictatorship run by an oppressive regime that does not allow free speech, dissidence, democracy, etc. America. If we want our lives run by Twinkies and video games so be it, if we want to work hard to be a success so be it.

We were talking about education. Not all of China sucks. I oppose dictaorships, beating children in school, their legal system, and complete communism.

The poverty rate has only increased 1 freaking percent. That is not a big deal. Poverty is required in society, even though it is an ugly thing.

One percent of 300 million people equals 3 million people, in just a few years. Imagine if we avoided socialism for 24 years? At that rate it would equal 18 million.

The numbers and history have proven that capitalism works to a certain degree and socialism fails and leads to dictatorship.

i don't really think so. A dicatorship can happen either way.

 

[Spider-Bite]

Both extremes make no sense, pure capitalism leads to the rich getting richer and poor getting poorer. While pure socialism won't do any good in the long run either. There's a balance called "democratic socialism". Most of the European nations have adopted a form of that.

that's what I support. It needs the right mix, and a social policy isn't good, just because it's social.

My plan is for the far off future, when it becomes economically efficent to have the country's labour needs performed by machines.

 

[StorminNorman]

That's what I said it was naive to believe. That's why we need congressional oversight.

not really. it could. I tend to think we should influence it as we have successfully been doing for decades. According to your logic, we shouldn't even have any laws whatsoever, because it's naive to think we can control everybody.

I am not saying that the Government could not control the Market - it could. But the end result would be a much more ineffective market.

When the Government steps in and control prices and other market factors - hurts the market. This has been proven time after time in history. Eventually you get to a "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" type deal.

That's why socialism is required.

Why? The industry is motivated to create products that improve the lives of the people, and people benefit from that. The motives of the industry are irrelevant.

I have my own energy plan. I plan to post it soon. It's very socialist.

Look sometimes a result will be acheived by government influence, and sometimes it wont. Bush took us out of the Kyoto treaty, and look what happened. Emissions went up in this country. had he not done that, investors would have had time to plan ahead, and they would have invested in ways to meat the protocalls, because it would have been the only way to protect their investments.

?

Small part of my own energy plan, which would actually result in freeing a lot of money up for the consumer.

What is your educational background. Sorry but if you have anything less than a masters in related-field, your "plan" means squat.

How would they pay for this? Seroiusly. If your plan was enacted me and my entire neighborhood which I grew up in as a child, would have had NO school. Not a better one, we'd have no school at all. My mother could never, ever, afford the cost of a private school. We could barely afford rent. You think 20 dollars a month is enough to pay for teaching a kid, let alone two kids?

Did you read my initial post...at all? The funding would come from the government. The government already spends thousands of dollars a kid on public education - now though, instead of the government deciding which school that goes to, the parent would. Its a very simply concept...

So it opens up in a poor run down neighborhood, where none of the parents have any money. How is that school going to be funded? There would be no way for that school to make money. Your out of touch with how the world works, and what life is like for people who have struggled. I don't think you quite understand how the economy works. Some people have to wear hand me downs, while others shop at the GAP. Opening a new business with high standards sounds nice in theory, but the truth is they will only issue those high standards if they can still make money off of them. The poor people will get the lower quality schools.

Again...the funding would come from the GOVERNMENT! The funding public schools now receive would simply instead go to the school the parent wants their child to go to.

Don't you DARE start preaching to me about not knowing how the world and the economy works. I know all about hand-me-downs and Goodwill clothes. This plan would benefit the poor MORE than the rich.

Not really. The good schools will cost more than the crap schools. Poor people, mostly black, will go to crap schools, and and middle class people, mostly white, will go to better schools. All kinds of schools will open up for different kinds of people who want their children not to be taught certain things, such as evolution, or the big bang.

No, they won't. It is the crap schools that tend to actually cost more money per student. Many good private schools are much cheaper to run than the worst public schools. However again, the government would pay for whatever school a parent wants their child to go to (up to a point. Of course there would eventually have to be some limit to the government funding).

yeah and if I want my kid to grow up hating gays and blacks, under your situation you think I wouldn't be able to find one that suits my needs?

I would like to think that their are enough families out there that want that that would support a school based around that concept. If there is, then there are rules about facilities practicing hate-speech, which is exactly what that would be. So KKK Middle School would be closed down.

I don't want America turning into the middle east, that's why i want it in the government's hands. History has proven that society's are capable of taking terrible directions. It will happen again, unless we intervene ahead of time and plan ahead. We can't just leave well enough alone and assume it wont happen again.

I don't see what this has to do with what I was saying...but oh well.

let's see China. A highly disciplined life style. America. twinkies and video games.

So we should be like China? YAY! Its not the Governments job to parent our kids bucko - it should NEVER be the Governments job. Your ideas simply become more and more scary the more you reveal.

Nowhere in my plan did I say students should wear uniforms.

Why not? It is a form of discipline. If it is the lax standards of civilization that is the problem, then should we not force our kids to wear respectable clothing and not saggy britches and gold chains?

You have shown me what you believe to be flaws in OTHER socilism plans. Not mine.

The flaws of Socialism are inherit within the ideas them self. Socialism is an idealist philosophy that does not translate well into practice.

If everyone is equal, no matter what, then you completely take out the motivation to succeed.

No you give him financial security so instead of 40 hours flipping burgers, he spends 40 hours practicing.

LOL, so he should be given money for contributing nothing to society?
The citizens shouldn't be dependent on their governments - which is exactly what you are trying to do.

Again - more and more scary.

My best friend wanted to be a marine biologist. He unintentionally got a women pregnant at age 21, before he even got to college. He couldn't afford to take care of his kid if he was in college for the next 10 years. Look how that turned out. I want people to have healthy families and healthy goals that they pursue. I want people to have both.

And I want a pony. The point is though that he made a mistake and he had to deal with the consequences of that mistake. It is not the governments job to make sure he lives a happy life - it is HIS responsibility.

A lot of times I feel that republicans don't merely disagree on how to improve life, but they actually oppose a higher quality of life. You just proved yourself to be an example of that. You don't want it to get better than it is. You want it to stay the same, which is where the term conservative comes from.

I am not a Republican.
You do not want a higher quality of life, you want a system where we are dependent on our government. So did Hitler.

I am all for change - as long as that change brings more freedom. This is not freedom. This is madness.

The idea is for the government to free your individuality from the confines and oppressions of society. If the government didn't do that we wouldn't be able to step outside of our house. if the government hadn't assisted my mother when I was a teenager with socialism housing, we would have been homeless. So really there is nothing at all you can say that refutes that or trumps that. Without socialism the rich crush the weak and the gap grows just like it did while Bush was president. The rich got a lot richer, and everybody else got poorer. The poverty rate is millions higher than it was when Clinton was president.

The numbers prove socialism is required. yes the stock market is back. The economy is back, but the people aren't.

Witty slogan's aside, you seem to be an idealistic kid that does not truly grasp the way the world works.

Your plan would do nothing but oppress society. Our way of life would be too heavily dependent on the government - that is dangerous.

You see the rich as evil and the poor as victims. That is great if you do not want to actually look at the issues. The rich depend on a stable middle class - that is what keeps them rich.

And also - good use of inaccurately facts (FTW!)

 

[Kritish]

I don't think that we'll end up that way if free college and health care came. For those issues, it just really depends on a person's opinion on government's role and responsibility to determine if you're for it or against it.

I figure that the government's here to take care of their people. America's doing a good job with our military on that issue, but the military isn't the whole issue.

 

[Abaddon]

What's that suppose to mean. We have a highly efficient work force in America, morally we do not have any major indignations as of late, universial sufferage, extension of rights (both at home and in other Democracies).

America, thankfully, doesn't yet determine the morals for it's people.

Well obviously any major indignation would only be recognized after the fact. In general I think people lack adequate moral standards. Your examples work well when comparing things to maybe 50 years ago, but that doesn't mean our current standards aren't ****ty. I've seen enough ugliness to know people do need to be taught how to be "good"

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Well obviously any major indignation would only be recognized after the fact. In general I think people lack adequate moral standards. Your examples work well when comparing things to maybe 50 years ago, but that doesn't mean our current standards aren't ****ty. I've seen enough ugliness to know people do need to be taught how to be "good"

This is emo bullsh** no offense. Crime, assh***s, sh**heads, racist (those who hate "groups" more generally) will always exist in society. We aren't Darfur, we aren't Nazi Germany, we aren't even close. Problems like those countries have come about when you try to teach people how to be "good" because no one man has the brain capacity to know what "good" is.

 

[Kritish]

This is emo bullsh** no offense. Crime, assh***s, sh**heads, racist (those who hate "groups" more generally) will always exist in society. We aren't Darfur, we aren't Nazi Germany, we aren't even close. Problems like those countries have come about when you try to teach people how to be "good" because no one man has the brain capacity to know what "good" is.

Nothing's perfect, but we've got a long way to go.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Look sometimes a result will be acheived by government influence, and sometimes it wont. Bush took us out of the Kyoto treaty, and look what happened. Emissions went up in this country. had he not done that, investors would have had time to plan ahead, and they would have invested in ways to meat the protocalls, because it would have been the only way to protect their investments.

I love it when people say that Bush took us out of the Kyoto Protocol when that is blatantly false. The Senate voted 95-0 stating that they would not ratify the Kyoto Protocol if it were submitted to Congress and the Clinton Administration never took it for ratification. The Bush Administration just simply shares Congress' opposition to the treaty.

Bush never took us out of the Kyoto Protocol because we never joined it in the first place!

 

[Abaddon]

This is emo bullsh** no offense. Crime, assh***s, sh**heads, racist (those who hate "groups" more generally) will always exist in society. We aren't Darfur, we aren't Nazi Germany, we aren't even close. Problems like those countries have come about when you try to teach people how to be "good" because no one man has the brain capacity to know what "good" is.

lol, well of course it's acceptable to you when you comapre it to shoving people into ovens. Yeah, let's maintain the status quo since it isn't as bad as >insert historical country known for commiting atrocities<

That's not even the point. And in the terms Spider-Bite presented it doesn't seem to me like it's forcing any kind of belief system. It's about teaching children to grow up into individuals who aren't selfish, apathetic, jerks.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I figure that the government's here to take care of their people. America's doing a good job with our military on that issue, but the military isn't the whole issue.

It depends on where you live. In places like Virginia where the military has a very heavy presence, they treat you very well. Where I live in New York, not so much. I had to go to a freaking ghetto clinic for a check up and shots. That blows.

 

[Addendum]

That's not even the point. And in the terms Spider-Bite presented it doesn't seem to me like it's forcing any kind of belief system. It's about teaching children to grow up into individuals who aren't selfish, apathetic, jerks.

That's the parent's responsibility, not the government's.

And I don't see anything wrong with being selfish or apathetic

 

[Kritish]

It depends on where you live. In places like Virginia where the military has a very heavy presence, they treat you very well. Where I live in New York, not so much. I had to go to a freaking ghetto clinic for a check up and shots. That blows.

That's because it's up to New York to take care of that ghetto clinic. The federal government should have to deal with that.

 

[StorminNorman]

lol, well of course it's acceptable to you when you comapre it to shoving people into ovens. Yeah, let's maintain the status quo since it isn't as bad as >insert historical country known for commiting atrocities<

That's not even the point. And in the terms Spider-Bite presented it doesn't seem to me like it's forcing any kind of belief system. It's about teaching children to grow up into individuals who aren't selfish, apathetic, jerks.

So instead of jerks, you would rather have government puppets? Because if you have the Government starting to parent your children - that is exactly what would happen.

 

[Abaddon]

That's the parent's responsibility, not the government's.

Well people tend to suck, parents included.

And I don't see anything wrong with being selfish or apathetic

no kidding.

 

[StorminNorman]

Well people tend to suck, parents included.

as do governments.

 

[hippie_hunter]

That's because it's up to New York to take care of that ghetto clinic. The federal government should have to deal with that.

I was just saying that the degrees of military health care vary from super awesome to have to pain in the ass groan worthy.

 

[Hades]

Life sucks, and it always will.

Might as well just watch and enjoy the ****slide go downhill.

Everything dies, and I'm sure us humans will all die off one day, too.

Meh. What's so special about us that we need to survive as a race?
we can't even seem to co-exist and we have to rely on others to try and exist peacefully.

 

[Abaddon]

So instead of jerks, you would rather have government puppets? Because if you have the Government starting to parent your children - that is exactly what would happen.

In what way would education in better understanding the self and interpersonal relationships turn people into puppets? It's about expanding knowledge and learning how to do better for yourself and others.

 

[Abaddon]

as do governments.

Absolutely,but you seem to be taking more issue with who's sending the package, rather than what's inside and the potential benefits.

 

[StorminNorman]

In what way would education in better understanding the self and interpersonal relationships turn people into puppets? It's about expanding knowledge and learning how to do better for yourself and others.

If you have the GOVERNMENT teaching these principals - then you will have the Government be able to teach Government-Friendly beliefs and values.

That is scary.

 

[Abaddon]

If you have the GOVERNMENT teaching these principals - then you will have the Government be able to teach Government-Friendly beliefs and values.

That is scary.

Really, I haven't focused too much on the socialist aspect, but since this is a "utopia", for arguments sake I'm operating under the condition that the Government doesn't have the opportunity to be corrupt. So there aren't any government-friendly beliefs being taught, but rather, people-friendly beliefs and values, which benefit individuals and society as a whole.


not that scary.

 

[StorminNorman]

Really, I haven't focused too much on the socialist aspect, but since this is a "utopia", for arguments sake I'm operating under the condition that the Government doesn't have the opportunity to be corrupt. So there aren't any government-friendly beliefs being taught, but rather, people-friendly beliefs and values, which benefit individuals and society as a whole.


not that scary.

But see, I don't view these things in ideological terms. I see them in practical terms.

In reality - if the government has enough influence over our youth to inspire strict discipline, they will turn them into government-friendly puppets.