Even without seeing the pics, I'm sure people would have seen it coming after that one scene of her looking out the window during the big brawl.
It was one of the most unsurprising movie twists I've ever seen. Clear as day pics of Cottiard in LOS garb walking casually with armed LOS men were all over the net a year before the movie's release.
One of the worst kept secrets for a movie.
One of the most unsurprising twists for you, sure. And even for the majority of us here at SHH. But every person that I saw the film with (none of them being news/picture-seeking smorees like ourselves) was completely surprised and loved the twist.
And even with those pics leaking and the rumors being afloat for months, so many were never exposed to them and were completely surprised. I didn't read one major review that complained about a "completely obvious twist" or anything like that.
A well kept movie secret doesn't get splashed all over the internet in PICTORIAL form for anyone to see. It's got nothing to do with being a news seeking smoree. This was dangled in front of our noses.
There's loads of reviews that said it was obvious. Cottiard was even being asked in interviews before the movie was released if she was Talia, and she was denying it; http://www.craveonline.com/film/art...sists-shes-not-talia-in-the-dark-knight-rises
Then you had little Joey King revealing it, too; http://www.totalfilm.com/news/joey-king-reveals-huge-dark-knight-rises-spoiler That's being reported by tons of movie websites like Total Film which loads of casual movie goers read.
It was all as subtle as a brick. Awful kept secret. Just awful.
Talia's reveal was meant to be about as much as a surprise as the reveal of the "grumpy" clown goon as The Joker IMO. Which was also spoiled via spy pics, btw.
It's not just her identity that gets revealed in the "twist" though. It's the fact that she was the child in the pit, it's what we learn about Bane from it. What we learn about what Bruce, Bane, Talia and Ra's have in common and how they contrast with one another. It's about the thematic clarity it offers.
A twist IMO, is something that's meant to turn the entire story on its head. The Talia reveal doesn't turn the story on its head, it actually brings it into greater focus and offers illumination and thematic resonance.
People look for spoilers and reveals before watching a movie , and then they say they weren't surprised. Funny
Again, there's no statistic to prove this, but it seems like the amount of people who were exposed to those set pics and big "reveal" by a completely unknown child actor is completely miniscule compared the the actual amount of people who saw the movie worldwide.
Was it as well-kept of a secret as the ending of Psycho or The Sixth Sense? Not at all, but that's tough to do in this day and age. It's not as if this massive spoiler was being blasted all over the different formats of mainstream news. I'm also willing to bet that if Batman Begins were shot in 2011 under the extremely high level of scrutiny and coverage that TDKR's shooting received, that spoiler would have seen some internet attention as well.
Talia's reveal was meant to be about as much as a surprise as the reveal of the "grumpy" clown goon as The Joker IMO. Which was also spoiled via spy pics, btw.
Really, and where's your statistic to prove that?
You can bet and theorize all you like. You're talking conjecture you can't prove.
To say it was a badly kept secret is an understatement.
You must be joking! They showed Joker's prologue months in advance before the movie was released. It was not meant to be a secret. Nor did they build a whole load of subterfuge around that through the movie like they did with making the audience think Bane was the child of Ra's who escaped the pit. Even bringing in Liam Neeson for a cameo to confirm that for Bruce.
Bad analogy, Batlobster. Really bad.
Not to mention Joker's revealed face and grin, even after seeing bootlegs of the prologue a countless times, the film a countless times, remains one of the most joyful moments ever in the Trilogy.
Clearly stated there was no statistic other than good ol' common sense. Are you suggesting that out of the MILLIONS of people who viewed TDKR in theaters and now on home video and on demand...that a majority of them knew that Miranda Tate was Talia al Ghul beforehand?
I think this is a quite logical way of looking at it, rather than "EVERYONE KNEW IT!!!"
We're both pretty much talking conjecture at this point, if you think about it. I'm saying that it wasn't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things and the "leaks" didn't hurt the film critically or financially. You're saying that this was one of the worst kept secrets in film history and you seem to be suggesting that a many more people knew the secret beforehand compared to what I am suggesting. There were, in fact, leaks on the internet, but we're debating the reach of ultimate effect of those leaks on the film in the eyes of audience members (not just hardcore fans).
No, we didn't.
Really? Because there was a large portion of posters around here who were basically like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlBRzjSniYI) during the barren spells of TDKR's production.
A twist IMO, is something that's meant to turn the entire story on its head. The Talia reveal doesn't turn the story on its head, it actually brings it into greater focus, offering illumination and thematic resonance.
Yeah... And I remember a lot thinking that it can't be it. It can't be that simple. There has to be something more. It's Nolan after all.
While I'm not disputing the significance of the pseudo-twist that you're underlining here, I do think it could've been executed a bit differently. I remember that the first time I saw the movie in theaters, my mind immediately thought that it was done for the sole purpose of establishing Talia as the main villain to the detriment of Bane. While further analysis of the pseudo-twist in the context of the movie revealed that that wasn't the case at all, I can certainly see why it would come off as such. On first viewings at least.
Exactly. On first viewing, I could understand. On the surface level it comes off that way.
But the thing with Nolan is he builds his movies for multiple viewings. He tried to do it in a way where it could be a surprise to a lot of people (IE the general audience), but also executed it in a way where in retrospect it is painfully obvious. Like it's more of a blind spot for Bruce than the audience. You see her in full LoS garb, he throws her the gun. It's like "Don't do that!"
It's because of that kind of stuff that my first viewing of TDKR was probably least enjoyable, and it only got better for me from there. Unfortunately, first impressions tend to be very important, so I understand why people would be upset if they felt the twist was weak. I would probably feel the same if it came out of nowhere, but still works on the level of tying up the plot thread about the child in the pit. It makes the story better. If it was just that Bane escaped as a child and then Bruce did the same as a man and that's the end of that, it would have left a lot to be desired. The way they structured it, it needed more payoff than that. And the structuring of the story in a way that prolonged Talia's reveal until the last possible moment was a nice way to get some added punch and save the revelations until the end.
Another reason it works structurally is just because in these films the villain always plays their hand at the end. Ra's reveals his identity and plans for Gotham. We see what Joker's endgame truly is. With TDKR, the villains' plan is already firmly in motion halfway through the film, so this serves as that beat. What's nice is the added tension of Batman having a knife between his ribs as he learns all of this when Gotham is 11 minutes from going up in a mushroom cloud. I've said it before but Talia's reveal is actually one of my favorite scenes in the film.