Watching X2 again, I could cry!

[TKing]

But then all of a sudden he loves his mutancy, why exactly?

And Worthington Snr says to Angel "We've talked about son" during the cure scene, indicating Warren junior has already agreed to take the cure sometime in the recent past maybe. But then what made Angel do a total turnaround?.

1. It isn't all of a sudden. It's been ten years since he discovered he was a mutant. That's plenty of time for him to get used to and feel secure with his mutancy.

2. Who knows if Warren actually agreed to take the cure? I'm not sure exactly what happened (obviously) but you have seen the father; a pushy, decisive, slightly insensitive man. Perhaps he didn't give Warren the chance to fully explain himself, and just decided for him.

 

[gambitfire]

If these issues are still being debated and ppl who are defending it are giving off different defensive points, then i would say the message wasn't properly sent across to begin with.

 

[TKing]

Haha, that's true. But in all honesty I don't think the writers ever intended for people to read much detail into the film. They prob just wanted to deliver a cool, action-packed summer flick. And that's what we got.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

1. It isn't all of a sudden. It's been ten years since he discovered he was a mutant. That's plenty of time for him to get used to and feel secure with his mutancy.

But we dont see that do we, what makes him feel secure about his mutancy, we never know, he's lived with his father for those same 10 years and i doubt his father gave him an easy time about being a mutant.

2. Who knows if Warren actually agreed to take the cure? I'm not sure exactly what happened (obviously) but you have seen the father; a pushy, decisive, slightly insensitive man. Perhaps he didn't give Warren the chance to fully explain himself, and just decided for him.

Well this sentence just sums it up, we are not sure so we are meant to guess, thats poor film making, they just wanted to get to the next action sequence and you making excuses means it was poorly executed.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Haha, that's true. But in all honesty I don't think the writers ever intended for people to read much detail into the film. They prob just wanted to deliver a cool, action-packed summer flick. And that's what we got.

And thats the problem, X-Men has alway been more than just 'action' and the so-called 'biggest X-Men fans in the world' didnt get that. And i thought it wasnt cook in the slightest, the action is poor and means nothing to me because we dont care for the characters involved.

 

[TKing]

But we dont see that do we, what makes him feel secure about his mutancy, we never know, he's lived with his father for those same 10 years and i doubt his father gave him an easy time about being a mutant.

How do you know that? He might have run away, lived with his mother, there are numerous possibilities that he didn't live with his father.

Well this sentence just sums it up, we are not sure so we are meant to guess, thats poor film making, they just wanted to get to the next action sequence and you making excuses means it was poorly executed.

Angel's arc was one of many. They couldn't devote more time to it, otherwise it would distract from the main plot. So obviously they can't flesh out everyone's character as much as the filmmakers would like, but they can do as much as it humanly possible, which I think they did in Angel's case.

The only thing that disappointed about Angel's character was his decision not to travel to Alcatraz with the X-Men. If he had helped in the final battle, it would further illustrate that he has grown used to his powers and actually accepts them as a blessing, rather than a curse.

 

[TKing]

And thats the problem, X-Men has alway been more than just 'action' and the so-called 'biggest X-Men fans in the world' didnt get that. And i thought it wasnt cook in the slightest, the action is poor and means nothing to me because we dont care for the characters involved.

What's 'cook'?

And I disagree. We are given the opportunity to feel for the characters, for example, The Kitty/Bobby/Rogue relationship. We saw that expand and develop, and followed Rogue's logical reasoning to have the cure to be closer to her boyfriend. That made sense, and we were able to feel what the character was feeling as she went through her particular story.

And the Storm/Headmistress of the school aspect. At the beginning we saw Storm training the younger students, displaying her skills as a leader and as a mentor. Later on, Xavier admits that he would chose Storm to become the new Headmistress of the school, displaying his trust in her to lead his beloved school. And when Warren enters, and Storm stands up and defends the school, it shows that she does care and she has a duty to fulfil and a promise to her mentor to carry out.

We saw Storm go all through this, as a quiet, fearful young woman in X1, into a self-assured, proud fighter in X3.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

How do you know that? He might have run away, lived with his mother, there are numerous possibilities that he didn't live with his father./

Well i'm just assuming as the movie never told us and thats my point about it, we dont spend enough time with the characters. But they didnt seem like peopl who had an uneasy relationship when Angel walks into the room to be cured, they looked like two people who have good relationship together. Hence the father asking "How are you son?" And then he keeps assuring him it'll all be okay. They didnt seem like two people who have had a really troubled relatioship until the moment Angel break free.

Angel's arc was one of many. They couldn't devote more time to it, otherwise it would distract from the main plot. So obviously they can't flesh out everyone's character as much as the filmmakers would like, but they can do as much as it humanly possible, which I think they did in Angel's case.

The only thing that disappointed about Angel's character was his decision not to travel to Alcatraz with the X-Men. If he had helped in the final battle, it would further illustrate that he has grown used to his powers and actually accepts them as a blessing, rather than a curse.

They could have devoted time to it by making the ****ing movie longer but no we get an ADD crew and director. Angel didnt even have an arc in X3, he was in the movie for about 5 mins, how can you have an arc there?

 

[TKing]

Well i'm just assuming as the movie never told us and thats my point about it, we dont spend enough time with the characters. But they didnt seem like peopl who had an uneasy relationship when Angel walks into the room to be cured, they looked like two people who have good relationship together. Hence the father asking "How are you son?" And then he keeps assuring him it'll all be okay. They didnt seem like two people who have had a really troubled relatioship until the moment Angel break free.

But the moment Warren walked in the door, he was panicky, unsure and a little tense. It would be a daunting thing for anybody, to undergo a transformation like that.

But I don't think the way the orderlies did it helped. I mean... strapping him down? It kind of symbolises them trapping him, stopping him from being who he really is and wants to be. And nobody would like to be trapped, especially when they're going through something like that.

They could have devoted time to it by making the ****ing movie longer but no we get an ADD crew and director. Angel didnt even have an arc in X3, he was in the movie for about 5 mins, how can you have an arc there?

Well, as you keep talking about it, there must be an arc to discuss.

 

[BMM]

What's 'cook'?

And I disagree. We are given the opportunity to feel for the characters, for example, The Kitty/Bobby/Rogue relationship. We saw that expand and develop, and followed Rogue's logical reasoning to have the cure to be closer to her boyfriend. That made sense, and we were able to feel what the character was feeling as she went through her particular story.

And the Storm/Headmistress of the school aspect. At the beginning we saw Storm training the younger students, displaying her skills as a leader and as a mentor. Later on, Xavier admits that he would chose Storm to become the new Headmistress of the school, displaying his trust in her to lead his beloved school. And when Warren enters, and Storm stands up and defends the school, it shows that she does care and she has a duty to fulfil and a promise to her mentor to carry out.

We saw Storm go all through this, as a quiet, fearful young woman in X1, into a self-assured, proud fighter in X3.

Yes, but AVEITWITHJAMON is saying that the action sequences don't resonate as well because there is a lack of connection with the characters involved, and this may very well be a reasonable argument. The logic behind Rogue's taking the cure, and Storm's becoming headmistress upon Xavier's absence are not action sequences, nor are they sequences featuring characters with which we are unfamiliar. One could argue that action sequences, featuring characters such as Colossus and Kitty Pryde (who we know relatively nothing about save for the fact that Colossus carries heavy objects and Kitty misses the first snow) don't maintain the same pay-off that action sequences featuring the likes of Cyclops, Jean Grey, Rogue, Storm, or Magneto do.

 

[BMM]

Double post . . .

 

[BMM]

. . . and triple post . . .

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

What's 'cook'?

And I disagree. We are given the opportunity to feel for the characters, for example, The Kitty/Bobby/Rogue relationship. We saw that expand and develop, and followed Rogue's logical reasoning to have the cure to be closer to her boyfriend. That made sense, and we were able to feel what the character was feeling as she went through her particular story.

And the Storm/Headmistress of the school aspect. At the beginning we saw Storm training the younger students, displaying her skills as a leader and as a mentor. Later on, Xavier admits that he would chose Storm to become the new Headmistress of the school, displaying his trust in her to lead his beloved school. And when Warren enters, and Storm stands up and defends the school, it shows that she does care and she has a duty to fulfil and a promise to her mentor to carry out.

We saw Storm go all through this, as a quiet, fearful young woman in X1, into a self-assured, proud fighter in X3.

Your kidding with these supposed arcs right? What did we see of the Rogue/Kitty/Boboy arc, Kitty(a character we know barely anything about, hence we dont know why Bobby is attracted to her) and Bobby go skating, so Rogue goes to get the cure. ****ing terrible, not to mention comic book Rogue would NEVER take the cure. AND she went from someone gaining more and more confidence in X2 back to a scared little girl in X3, some character development that is.

And Storm was already a strong warrior in X2, was it not she who rescued the children and stopped cerebro when Magneto switched it? Not too mention that its ALWAYS been Scott that xavier looked to to take over the school.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Yes, but AVEITWITHJAMON is saying that the action sequences don't resonate as well because there is a lack of connection with the characters involved, and this may very well be a reasonable argument. The logic behind Rogue's taking the cure, and Storm's becoming headmistress upon Xavier's absence are not action sequences, nor are they sequences featuring characters with which we are unfamiliar. One could argue that action sequences, featuring characters such as Colossus and Kitty Pryde (who we know relatively nothing about save for the fact that Colossus carries heavy objects and Kitty misses the first snow) don't maintain the same pay-off that action sequences featuring the likes of Cyclops, Jean Grey, Rogue, Storm, or Magneto do.

Exactly, most of the characters in the final battle we know barely anything about, so how are we meant to give a **** about them?

 

[TKing]

Yes, but AVEITWITHJAMON is saying that the action sequences don't resonate as well because there is a lack of connection with the characters involved, and this may very well be a reasonable argument. The logic behind Rogue's taking the cure, and Storm's becoming headmistress upon Xavier's absence are not action sequences, nor are they sequences featuring characters with which we are unfamiliar. One could argue that action sequences, featuring characters such as Colossus and Kitty Pryde (who we know relatively nothing about save for the fact that Colossus carries heavy objects and Kitty misses the first snow) don't maintain the same pay-off that action sequences featuring the likes of Cyclops, Jean Grey, Rogue, Storm, or Magneto do.

Of course not, because that's what we are used to. When there is a shift of characters, people question: Who are they? What are they doing here?

But that's why we saw the Kitty/Bobby relationship, to establish the character in the film. (Whether or not they give her a personality is a different matter). They've established the characters, and so we have no choice but to feel for them when times are hard or when all hope seems lost.

 

[TKing]

Your kidding with these supposed arcs right? What did we see of the Rogue/Kitty/Boboy arc, Kitty(a character we know barely anything about, hence we dont know why Bobby is attracted to her) and Bobby go skating, so Rogue goes to get the cure. ****ing terrible, not to mention comic book Rogue would NEVER take the cure. AND she went from someone gaining more and more confidence in X2 back to a scared little girl in X3, some character development that is.

And Storm was already a strong warrior in X2, was it not she who rescued the children and stopped cerebro when Magneto switched it? Not too mention that its ALWAYS been Scott that Xavier looked to to take over the school.

But this isn't the comics? It's the movie verse. They're completely different. You don't see the characters in yellow spandex on screen, do you? Things have to be altered, toned down, changed slightly... to accommodate a wider audience, and to please everyone, not just fan boys.

 

[Boba_Fett_123]

Fair point. But the Rogue that was set up in the end of X2 would NEVER have taken the cure, either. So it's a lose-lose situation. The Rogue from the beginning of X1, maybe. But the Rogue from the end of X2? No way in hell.

 

[TKing]

Well, a change of director and crew would have a different interpretation of how events should pan out.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Of course not, because that's what we are used to. When there is a shift of characters, people question: Who are they? What are they doing here?

But that's why we saw the Kitty/Bobby relationship, to establish the character in the film. (Whether or not they give her a personality is a different matter). They've established the characters, and so we have no choice but to feel for them when times are hard or when all hope seems lost.

We saw nothing of the Bobby/Kitty relationship though, except Bobby thsnking Kitty in the danger room and the ice skate, so how the **** are meant to know anything about Kitty from that, if anything she is a wannabe home wrecker judging from X3.

And about the highlighted line, they didnt establish anything, except that they might have an attraction to each other. This is enough to care for them? Sorry, but your logic is flawed, its character development at its poorest. They established **** all!

 

[TKing]

When I said established, I meant introduced. They introduced Kitty in a supporting role (like I've said, whether she had a decent personality in X3 is up to you), but the filmmakers obviously wanted Rogue to take the cure, and I don't see any other way of her doing that unless it was to save her relationship with her boyfriend.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

But this isn't the comics? It's the movie verse. They're completely different. You don't see the characters in yellow spandex on screen, do you? Things have to be altered, toned down, changed slightly... to accommodate a wider audience, and to please everyone, not just fan boys.

Yes your right, because changing a custume is the same as changing a character isnt it .

Certain things need to be changed, most shouldnt.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

When I said established, I meant introduced. They introduced Kitty in a supporting role (like I've said, whether she had a decent personality in X3 is up to you), but the filmmakers obviously wanted Rogue to take the cure, and I don't see any other way of her doing that unless it was to save her relationship with her boyfriend.

She didnt need to svae her relationship because Bobby was happy with her being a mutant, hence why he went to stop her taking the cure and told her at the end he didnt want this, there was nothing to save, the relationship was fine.

 

[TKing]

Yes your right, because changing a custume is the same as changing a character isnt it .

Certain things need to be changed, most shouldnt.

I was giving an example to illustrate my point. And does the word 'duh' mean anything to you?

I give up, now. You can complain about X3 all you want.

 

[X-Maniac]

She didnt need to svae her relationship because Bobby was happy with her being a mutant, hence why he went to stop her taking the cure and told her at the end he didnt want this, there was nothing to save, the relationship was fine.

That's irrelevant. What's relevant is how she feels - which we are shown. Regardless of whether you agree with her taking the cure, the movie showed that she wanted to touch people and she perceived that she might lose her boyfriend because they were unable to be intimate. Her looks of resentment when Bobby is with Kitty in the DR and on the ice pond are obvious.

It doesn't matter whether you think she should take the cure. (I would rather she didn't). What matters is what we are shown in the movie, which is that Kitty stepped up to being an X-Men team member and was a visible representation of what Rogue couldn't do because her power is, in some ways, a disability. Rogue saw what a 'normal couple' might do - hug and touch with no worries.

Whether you agree with the story arc is a matter of opinion, but the story is there quite clearly.

 

[X-Maniac]

If these issues are still being debated and ppl who are defending it are giving off different defensive points, then i would say the message wasn't properly sent across to begin with.

Equally, you could say some people lack comprehension skills. Or that they have a bias against the movie because it is not Singer, or because it beat SR at the box office, or because a favourite character died, or some other reason.