Watching X2 again, I could cry!

[X-Maniac]

I wouldn’t be quick so quick to characterize Storm as being blindingly intolerant, particularly in the issue you’re citing. By the end of the book, the X-Men accept Xavier’s decision to make Rogue a member of the team, and Storm isn’t so narrow-minded as to not listen to Xavier’s (or anyone else’s) reasoning. Storm is actually able to look past her own indignations and consider the plight of another . . . I can’t necessarily say the same for Storm’s portrayal in The Last Stand. Furthermore, Storm is later able to accept Rogue, despite the “atrocities” she has committed in Storm’s eyes, because Storm knows there is still the potential for good inside of Rogue . . . I would say The Last Stand somewhat overlooks this compassion and logic of Storm’s, which I think is further evidenced by her callousness toward former friend and teammate, Jean Grey.

There was no callousness. That's a gross misrepresentation. Even though I think X3's Storm was a little too harsh, it wasn't callousness. It was a black-and-white assessment of the situation. Xavier and Cyclops had died, Jean had sided with Magneto. Her behaviour is plausible and as we hadn't previously seen any sisterly bond between Jean and Storm, or any real affectionate moments between them in the prior movies, X3 was not wrong to continue in that vein. Storm was simply focusing on the bigger issues at hand. This was a tougher Storm who was stepping up to a greater responsibility and who was in a 'war situation' where there was little time for pleasantries. Even though I'd prefer some softer touches too (a scene with Kitty was omitted, regrettably), what happened makes sense within the more urgent setting of this movie.

 

[gambitfire]

urget setting INDEED!!

more like overwhelming fast pace.

In other words there was no time to give Storm depth, got it thanks.

 

[X-Maniac]

urget setting INDEED!!

more like overwhelming fast pace.

In other words there was no time to give Storm depth, got it thanks.

Heh.. But there was no time in the previous movies, which had far fewer characters, far less urgency and your beloved Bryan directing them. Where was Storm's depth and background then?

 

[gambitfire]

My beloved Bryan Singer didn't have the budget nor the permission to do so.

So you can thank your beloved Fox for that.

Besides he got more depth into Storm in 3 lines then all of X3 manage to do IMO.

So thanks to your other beloved Ratners xfest of mutants running around with almost meaningless one liners and no depth too them, we may not get another X-movie and one of the greatest X-stories ever told was diminished to some popcorn Wolverine fest of a movie.

Edit- Oh and before we get stupid let us not forget the Director's don't write these lines. sorry

 

[Goddessreicho]

But it is the director's job to choose wether or not they are included. And Bryan did write parts of X1 and X2. Unless someone lied about those too.

But it is still the director's progative to choose what makes it in the film and what doesn't. So why didn't he ask himself, "Gee, why does Storm act this way." Maybe the audience should know instead of just assuming that she feel into the angry mammy role...

Byran faulted BIG time with Storm. Not only did he miss a brilliant oppurtunity to give her depth, with the clausterphobia, and a reason to be angry with the hatred and fear thing.

He just didn't know what to do with her. Keeping her in the film with no solid purpose or story, let alone character was his fault.

If he didn't know what to do with her, he should have cut her out completely. Just pull a Gambit with her.

 

[The Guard]

Storm's actions made complete sense to me in the context of her movie character in X3. And Magneto's not neccessarily "afraid" of humans...just what they can do to him...persecution, period, and of being cured.

 

[gambitfire]

^ Ur right but the Writers do most the story telling Directors just bring it too life.

I think his apparent Origin scene may have something to define on why Storm is so angry, but since we didn't see it then there really is a gap in that story aspect of Storm.

 

[The Guard]

Storm's angry because she and other mutants have been persecuted, and because mutants are not valued for what they are. It's not that hard to figure out. Her scenes in X-MEN and X2? That was the writers and directors using Storm to show you how mutants feel about humans, deep down. Afraid and angry.

 

[Storm22]

I wonder now, what with all the complaints X3 gets for deviating from the comics, will Spiderman 3 get the same reaction. Already, especially after the new trailer, I've read comments of people getting more and more angry with Harry Osbourne being this Night Surfer character instead of Hob Goblin and Sandman being Uncle Ben's killer.

 

[gambitfire]

deviation from story is ok if it works, and stays true to the meaning of the story, deviation from characters is wrong

Harry is still Harry, Venom will probably still be Venom with a different origin and Same goes for all the other characters.

 

[Goddessreicho]

Are you sure it's not more personal than that? Where's Ororo's story. Every one else had one.

Scott loves Jean but not enough to keep her attention

Xavier had the school, fell out with Lensherr

Wolverine has plot, Jean, and more plot

Kitty misses snow in upstate New York

Bobby came out to his parents as ga...not fun...a mutant

Rogue sold her soul to the devil for sex

Angel is a gq coverboy for the emo son

Leech is abused

Beast stole Rogue's dilemna for the cure

Magneto gives Al Quieda a run for thier money, and becoming the nex Malcolm X

Raven was made fun of and tortured

Kurt went from clown to preisthood and found stuff

Jean is the epitomy of all things the bad things about sterotypical women,
and got doinked by Xavier as a kid

and what did Storm get? Hmm..and don't mention that scene with Nightcrawler. That was HIS introduction as tool for the plot.

Oh wait, Storm got pissed off....amd faith, in a character that wasn't important enough to be mentioned for a second time. Uh ok. Jean isn't the only one that was easily forgotten about. "What happened to the blue guy with the tail that Wolverine was an ass to?"

 

[gambitfire]

Storm's angry because she and other mutants have been persecuted, and because mutants are not valued for what they are. It's not that hard to figure out. Her scenes in X-MEN and X2? That was the writers and directors using Storm to show you how mutants feel about humans, deep down. Afraid and angry.

It's not about having to figure it out it's about seeing her struggle and giving it depth, within the movie otherwise movies will continue to be build on assumption which is not proper story telling at times.

X2 may have given us some more but It seems like X3 worked off of that only because we saw no other struggle within it.

 

[The Guard]

Claustrophobia has little to do with why Storm is afraid of humans. Simply going "Oh, she's claustrophobic...that's why we show her admitting to being afraid"...does not work thematically.

In these films, Storm is...

A. Making massive storms
B. Mentoring the X-kids
C. Afraid (giving us insight into the mindset of a persecuted mutant)
D. Angry (Ditto)

She flat-out REPRESENTS every-mutant conflict in the X-Men film universe.

NONE of these (ensemble) films had much in the way of actually exploring characters "struggles", people. Give me a break. People act like X3 is the ONLY X-film devoid of "proper character development" and conflict. Character MOMENTS is what the X-movies contain, not neccessarily character "development". None of them really do, except for Wolverine, who is essentially our guide to the X-Men universe in these films.

 

[gambitfire]

Besides the fact that Wolverine is the worst guide to the X-mythos period, No X3 isn't the only movie devoid of "PCD" X2 did a little bit of it with Nightcrawler, Cyclops, and Storm.

But X3 did it with way too many characters, that's how i feel, maybe i'm not right but neither are you so don't frustrate yourself over it.

 

[The Guard]

My friend, what happend with Storm, Nightcrawler and Cyclops in X2 was "character moments", not anything actually resembling character development. Character DEVELOPMENT is when a character changes as a personality in some significant way. How did any of those characters actually change in X3?

Other than Nightcrawler, who used to whine about not being able to see where he was going when he was teleporting. For someone who clearly already has faith in himself, that's not exactly a sparkling character change.

Storm starts off angry...she ends the movie...without any real resolution of her "Sometimes anger can help you survive" moment. It's never even put to the test. The whole "So can faith" thing was call and response dialogue, and THIN development at best. Storm already essentially HAD faith in others...we saw so in X-MEN, and X2 with Jean. There was never a real test of her faith, or a reason for her to suddenly have loads of faith in Nightcrawler at the end of X2 (that she didn't already have). It was a nice line...but little more.

And Cyclops (besides grieving) didn't do much changing in X2 (In X3 he did, based on what happened in X2)...he loves Jean and hates Wolverine in the beginning of the movie...and loves Jean and pretty much hates Wolverine at the end of the movie.

Honestly, I think in a lot of ways, X2 may have had better character moments, but I believe X3 may have had better developed/explored character conflict and development.

 

[gambitfire]

what? i was saying X2 didn't develop them.



In X3 one wasn't there, the other might as well not have been there, and the last one just whinned her way through.

 

[The Guard]

I see. My mistake. Anyway, I've come to belive that the X-films only feature development for Wolverine, who sort of mirrors the "new mutant" period of adjustment. The other characters in the films are all sort of "established", but they don't do much changing as developing characters. Things happen that change them, and affect their mindsets and roles in the X-Men movie mythos, but there's not a lot of real, concrete "development" (Except for Wolverine, Jean, Pyro, and perhaps Magneto).

 

[Goddessreicho]

I never said that clausterphobia had anything to do with hating humans!! Jeezez...

Look at the list I gave. Those were all PERSONAL character moments given to expand indivisual characters. None of which had anything to do with mutant powers, minus Rogue and Beast. But thier personal devolpment stories got switched and became thier personal struggles.

A "personal struggle" is what's missing from Storm. This is why she's not a complete character. This is why Halle comes across as empty-headed and pointless. WHY does she hate and fear humans enough to blindside her rationale thinking? This is why a back story is ESSENTIAL. She running around for no apparent reason.

The clausterphobia would have been a PERSONAL struggle, she herself would have had to gone through. It would have been something to show her vunerable side. That's something, see my list above, that all those other characters had.

Mentoring the X-kids, oh please. What does she do when the final bell rings? Scott had cars and bikes and a babe for a short period of time, Jean was a doc [for no apparent reason:P] so she reads alot, Xavier was a father figure to wayward cage fighters and taught children about horses, what did Ororo do when out of the leather and classroom?

Scott, Jean and Xavier, Wolverine got character addons? Where was Ororo's?

And don't give me that budjet line. Seriously GF :P!!! How much would it cost for a watering pale and a bloody plant! All they needed was a frame of her watering a plant, or plants...it didn't even have to be in a greenhouse.

Or picking a lock
or talking on the phone
or ANYTHING...we got nothing besides "I'm angry for other people." Uh ok.

 

[BMM]

There was no callousness. That's a gross misrepresentation. Even though I think X3's Storm was a little too harsh, it wasn't callousness. It was a black-and-white assessment of the situation. Xavier and Cyclops had died, Jean had sided with Magneto. Her behaviour is plausible and as we hadn't previously seen any sisterly bond between Jean and Storm, or any real affectionate moments between them in the prior movies, X3 was not wrong to continue in that vein. Storm was simply focusing on the bigger issues at hand. This was a tougher Storm who was stepping up to a greater responsibility and who was in a 'war situation' where there was little time for pleasantries. Even though I'd prefer some softer touches too (a scene with Kitty was omitted, regrettably), what happened makes sense within the more urgent setting of this movie.

The issue isn't whether or not her actions are plausible within the bounds of the movie. I didn’t say that they weren’t, and that isn’t the point of my post. I am simply holding your argument to the same standard you were using by which to argue your previous case, and that is a comparison between Storm’s actions as represented in the comics as opposed to her actions as represented in the movie. In which case, Storm in the comics is ultimately much more rational and understanding than what is presented in The Last Stand even when compared to the likes of the scene you’re referencing.

I would also consider Storm’s conclusion regarding Jean Grey callous in comparison to the concern and compassion her character displays for Jean Grey in the comics, which is hardly a gross misrepresentation on my part. Does Jean Grey kill in the comics? Yes. In fact she kills billions of people. Does she show that she is willing to kill the X-Men? Yes, as is noted in the books, her first act as Dark Phoenix is an attempt to kill the X-Men, including Storm herself. Could Dark Phoenix incinerate Storm in an instant? Yep, but that doesn’t stop Storm from attempting to reach out to help Jean Grey, because she knows her former friend and teammate is still somewhere inside of this monster. Essentially, an entire universe is at stake, where there is little time for pleasantries, but that doesn’t stop Storm from trying to help salvage Jean Grey’s humanity. In The Last Stand, Jean Grey is still trapped inside of the monster, and Wolverine tells Storm this . . . but Storm seems to have already dismissed her as a lost cause. I find that callous (and practically just as out of character) in comparison to Storm’s representation in the books. Does it work within the confines of the movie? Sure, but this isn’t my point.

In so far as Jean Grey and Storm’s affectionate moments and “sisterly bond” are concerned, while I would have liked for there to have been a few more lighthearted moments shown between the two characters, I don’t particularly buy the fact that this was something deeply presented in the comic books. The only reason people even think that Jean Grey and Storm had an intimate friendship prior to Jean becoming Phoenix is because Storm once said “Jean, we’re friends . . . what of the confidences we’ve shared?” Such confidence exchanges and deep friendship are hardly ever actually shown, and ironically, Storm’s not even talking to Jean Grey at the time. She’s talking to a robot look-a-like. Jean Grey and Storm barely even converse with one another between Storm’s first appearance and the beginning of the Dark Phoenix Saga . . .

. . . in fact, given that the real Jean Grey was suspended under water during the entirety of the Phoenix arc, she and Storm are actually only shown talking twice over the course of about 15 years . . .

 

[Goddessreicho]

That is true, Storm is shown to be far closer to Illyana, Peter, Kurt, and defenitley Wolverine, and Kitty during the first cycle of the Dark Phoenix Saga.

The movies didn't include a close bond between the two either. They had one brief scene. The quick flight to Boston. That's it. There wasn't much girl talk on the plane.

This is yet another missed oppurtunity on Singer and the writers. It wouldn't have taken much a few lines, or a look and a whisper about both being girls and super heroes. Or something, anything. It wouldn't have taken much.

Ororo's briskness when it comes to Jean is another over look on the character and one of the many inconsistanies that chalk her up to be very unlikable.

Had an addon been given to her about her friendship with Jean that could have easily hit two birds with one stone. Ororo would have had a personal struggle, an added character bonus, like everyone else, and we would have seen someone else be in a scene with Jean without wanting to do her.

It would have given the X-men a more family closeness that was missing. And it would have made Jean look less like a piece of a** and more like a friend and person, which was lost in the mix.

 

[gambitfire]

I agree that's very true even with the low budge Singer could of made them feel more like a family, Atleast i think he came closer than Ratner.

Looking at SR the Clark and Lois relationship also lacked tenderness.

I think it's something Singer forgets but nonethe less i still believe he touched upon it better than Ratner and company did.

 

[Cyclops]

That's understandable though. Superman had been gone for five years. You're not going to be warm and tender with the guy who just skipped out on you without a word and then just shows up five years later.

 

[gambitfire]

But i mean Clark and Lois not Suprman and Lois.

Clark didn't skip town on Lois he simply "left on a trip", and when your friend comes back you don't simply overlook them.

Then again how close where Clark and Lois and in SRs case it's not that Singer overlooked it but that he did it intentionally.

 

[Cyclops]

In the previous movies, Lois had always dismissed Clark casually if I'm remembering correctly.

 

[The Guard]

Look at the list I gave. Those were all PERSONAL character moments given to expand indivisual characters. None of which had anything to do with mutant powers, minus Rogue and Beast. But thier personal devolpment stories got switched and became thier personal struggles.

Storm was shown teaching. Isn't that personal?

A "personal struggle" is what's missing from Storm. This is why she's not a complete character. This is why Halle comes across as empty-headed and pointless.

Yes, it's not her acting at all.

WHY does she hate and fear humans enough to blindside her rationale thinking? This is why a back story is ESSENTIAL. She running around for no apparent reason.

Why? BECAUSE SHE'S BEEN HATED AND FEARED FOR BEING A MUTANT.

She's not "running around for no reason". She's clearly one of Xavier's first students (which Xavier flat out explains) who bought into his dream and decided to defend it and teach others. Same motivation as Scott and Jean.

The clausterphobia would have been a PERSONAL struggle, she herself would have had to gone through. It would have been something to show her vunerable side. That's something, see my list above, that all those other characters had.

So Storm's struggle would be being afraid of enclosed spaces? Lame. So...you say they could have shown Storm's vulnerable side...but actually SEEING a vulnerable side of her wasn't enough?

Mentoring the X-kids, oh please. What does she do when the final bell rings?

Way to downplay the entire point behind Charles Xavier's dream.

"Mentoring? Meh!"

Scott had cars and bikes and a babe for a short period of time

And Storm taught young mutants Xavier's dream.

Jean was a doc [for no apparent reason:P] so she reads alot, Xavier was a father figure to wayward cage fighters and taught children about horses, what did Ororo do when out of the leather and classroom?

The leather and classroom isn't enough? Why, exactly? When did mentoring young students and fighting evil become "less than enough"?

Scott, Jean and Xavier, Wolverine got character addons? Where was Ororo's?

Better yet, who gives a damn? As it's not connected to the story, it strikes me as completely irrelevant.