What can DC/WB do now to move forward? Is there hope? - Part 1

[Greens]

We have a Superman as dour and bitter as the world he's supposed to be saving. Besides which the main reason to start over is the poor reception to the films.

He doesn't seem dour and bitter at the end of JL to me.

 

[Herofan]

I think Shazam will only succeed if the audience is willing to see it as comedic like Guardians. I don't think Aquaman can succeed even then, too many people likely to say the concept is dumb or the execution/tone is wrongheaded.

 

[Flash525]

Perhaps a controversial opinion, but at this point I think it would be best to rest things for a few years and then do a full reboot, even if it would, unfortunately, mean rebooting Wonder Woman as well.

They don't actually need too though. Because the two solo WW films are prequels, they could just as easily keep Gal's Diana in the role. There's really no need to recast her or remake her stories.

Heck, if they wanted too, they could keep Mamoa & Cavill as Aquaman & Superman too; MoS can remain as a Superman origin story, and Momoa's Aquaman will undoubtedly be a hit in it's own right.

All they'd need to do is erase BvS & JL from the DCEU. They can either (potentially) do that with Flashpoint, or they can just man up and admit they screwed up, then link the other films back in to a new JL film.

Keep Henry, Jason & Gal, cause (a far as I'm concerned, they each nail their respective roles). Ben nailed Bruce too, but his portrayal of the Dark Knight seems up in the air at the moment (in that he doesn't know whether he wants to continue or not) so there's an option to recast.

They could probably do with recasting Flash as well, and Cyborg? I'd rather have Hawkgirl or Martian Manhunter as a JL member, but then they could just exclude these (three) and stick Shazam in there as a founding member; mix things up a bit.

The DCEU is salvageable.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

Even if the 2019 are well-received they have a mountain to climb. The DCEU is widely considered one of the most disappointing franchises of all time. Only Transformrs might rate lower based on the potential. They have lost so much ground, i don't know if they can recover with this universe. Audiences straight up rejected a Justice League movie for crying out loud.

I still cannot believe what they did to Justice League. I saw it in the cinema, then someone bought me the DVD so I watched it once more. I honestly don't think I'll ever watch it again. I feel about JL like many feel about BvS (which I actually liked).

 

[Protar]

They don't actually need too though. Because the two solo WW films are prequels, they could just as easily keep Gal's Diana in the role. There's really no need to recast her or remake her stories.

Heck, if they wanted too, they could keep Mamoa & Cavill as Aquaman & Superman too; MoS can remain as a Superman origin story, and Momoa's Aquaman will undoubtedly be a hit in it's own right.

All they'd need to do is erase BvS & JL from the DCEU. They can either (potentially) do that with Flashpoint, or they can just man up and admit they screwed up, then link the other films back in to a new JL film.

Keep Henry, Jason & Gal, cause (a far as I'm concerned, they each nail their respective roles). Ben nailed Bruce too, but his portrayal of the Dark Knight seems up in the air at the moment (in that he doesn't know whether he wants to continue or not) so there's an option to recast.

They could probably do with recasting Flash as well, and Cyborg? I'd rather have Hawkgirl or Martian Manhunter as a JL member, but then they could just exclude these (three) and stick Shazam in there as a founding member; mix things up a bit.

The DCEU is salvageable.

I dislike the idea of decanonising certain films but not others. Either start a new continuity or keep everything canon. It's just poor branding. General audiences don't keep up with press releases about what is canon and what isn't, so it's needlessly confusing. This is exactly what's damaged the X-men brand so much over the past several years.

It sucks to have to discard good parts of the DCEU, but it's cleaner.

 

[Flash525]

I dislike the idea of decanonising certain films but not others. Either start a new continuity or keep everything canon. It's just poor branding. General audiences don't keep up with press releases about what is canon and what isn't, so it's needlessly confusing. This is exactly what's damaged the X-men brand so much over the past several years.

It sucks to have to discard good parts of the DCEU, but it's cleaner.

What about a Flashpoint event then? That's going to erase elements of what we've already seen, whilst remaining canon to what has preceded it.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

What about a Flashpoint event then? That's going to erase elements of what we've already seen, whilst remaining canon to what has preceded it.

I can see why the idea of Flashpoint appealed to the suits at WB, given the situation they found themselves in after BvS and SS. In an ideal world I'd have said it was far too early for Flashpoint - much as I'd love a live-action version - but it was certainly an option, doing their own DoFP and in effect rebooting. But in any event it looks like the Flash movie isn't Flashpoint any more.

 

[Flash525]

I can see why the idea of Flashpoint appealed to the suits at WB, given the situation they found themselves in after BvS and SS. In an ideal world I'd have said it was far too early for Flashpoint - much as I'd love a live-action version - but it was certainly an option, doing their own DoFP and in effect rebooting. But in any event it looks like the Flash movie isn't Flashpoint any more.

I know, but that wasn't the purpose behind my post.

Ultimately, DC/WB have three options:

• Pull the plug, start the whole DCEU with a better fool-proof plan in ten or so years.
• Reboot the DCEU (either by the way of Flashpoint, or just a soft reboot, ignoring BvS & JL as suggested above).
• Suck it up; continue with their established events, just be sure not to repeat the problem going forward. In this instance, BvS & JL will remain in their lore, but they'll jut be remembered as the weak links of the DCEU.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

I know, but that wasn't the purpose behind my post.

Ultimately, DC/WB have three options:

• Pull the plug, start the whole DCEU with a better fool-proof plan in ten or so years.
• Reboot the DCEU (either by the way of Flashpoint, or just a soft reboot, ignoring BvS & JL as suggested above).
• Suck it up; continue with their established events, just be sure not to repeat the problem going forward. In this instance, BvS & JL will remain in their lore, but they'll jut be remembered as the weak links of the DCEU.

No, I get what you're saying.

I think of those three options the third is the most likely. It's certainly the one I hope they go with.

 

[Greens]

I would advise AGAINST Flashpoint. Spending hundreds of millions of dollars on a movie that just acts as a bridge between what was and what will be is a stupid idea. Just make new damn movies. As it is hardly anybody cares about the DCEU anymore so why bend over backwards to make everything connect? It's not that hard to just make new movies and have people accept the new reality.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

Spending hundreds of millions of dollars on a movie that just acts as a bridge between what was and what will be is a stupid idea.

Do you mean as a general principle, or just in this case? DoFP is generally regarded as one of the very best X-Men films.

I agree btw, no FP for the foreseeable future.

 

[Flash525]

I would advise AGAINST Flashpoint. Spending hundreds of millions of dollars on a movie that just acts as a bridge between what was and what will be is a stupid idea. Just make new damn movies. As it is hardly anybody cares about the DCEU anymore so why bend over backwards to make everything connect? It's not that hard to just make new movies and have people accept the new reality.

I know of enough people that do care.

I'd echo the Flashpoint sentiment though, it's far too early for that, and an established Flashpoint would crumble an established DCEU. It's why I'm a little sceptical on the MCU introducing time travel; in many ways, if it's changing events that preceded it, it's ruining established lore, and the MCU has built up a lot from it. For the established films to have otherwise happened differently or not at all because of time shenanigans is worrisome, and that's what Flashpoint would ultimately do.

If they do go with Flashpoint, it needs to be a self contained story in a couple of years (once the major players have been established); just make sure that when Barry returns [to his future] very little, if anything has changed - so much so that the alternate reality might just as well be a completely different Earth from within a Multiverse.

 

[Rorschach2012]

They need to market Shazam to young kids. It won’t work otherwise. The target demographic should be like 8-14

 

[divan]

Do you mean as a general principle, or just in this case? DoFP is generally regarded as one of the very best X-Men films.

I agree btw, no FP for the foreseeable future.

Yes, but DOFP came off the also well-received First Class, which established the world and characters the franchise was going to place their bets on from then on and was advertised as a sort of crossover between both sides of the franchise so you had the best of both worlds, plus Wolverine (basically the only character the general audience cared about througout the old X-Men films) meeting the well-liked incarnations of First Class characters like Xavier.

Problem with Flashpoint would be, the audience doesn't have any reason to care. Even if they craft a very cool time travel story, the only hook is having a lukewarmly received version of Flash meeting some alternate characters that will be erased by the film's end, all so you can erase some films but not others from the canon. It's all a bit convoluted if you ask me.

 

[Greens]

Yes, but DOFP came off the also well-received First Class, which established the world and characters the franchise was going to place their bets on from then on and was advertised as a sort of crossover between both sides of the franchise so you had the best of both worlds, plus Wolverine (basically the only character the general audience cared about througout the old X-Men films) meeting the well-liked incarnations of First Class characters like Xavier.

Problem with Flashpoint would be, the audience doesn't have any reason to care. Even if they craft a very cool time travel story, the only hook is having a lukewarmly received version of Flash meeting some alternate characters that will be erased by the film's end, all so you can erase some films but not others from the canon. It's all a bit convoluted if you ask me.

Exactly. DoFP feels more like a sequel to First Class to me than a "correction" like Flashpoint would be. It's just a lame idea. I don't need Flashpoint to happen, ever.

 

[unholyrevenger]

Don't be a pedant. Ironman, Hulk, Thor and Cap all got solo films before the Avengers. Avengers was so great because almost every element of it was set up in prior movies. With the DCEU we had Man of Steel, and then after three years of nothing we jump straight into a crossover with the big three, we have a completely unrelated movie, Wonder Woman gets her solo, and then we jump straight into Justice League; when Batman, Aquaman, Flash and Cyborg all have yet to receive a solo outing. DC needs to start over and this time they need to take their time.

You're the one being a pedant. Supes got his movie, WW got her movie, Batman doesn't need a movie, Suicide Squad gets ignored, just like Norton Hulk the Supporting cast Widow, Hawkeye, flash, Aquaman, and Cyborg get their introduction in other peoples movies.

Are BvS or Justice League better movies as is, simply because the other characters get their movies first? The answer is no.

They don't need to start over the MCU has basically soft rebooted the phase one avengers and in hulks case, twice, In Avengers and Ragnarok. No one cared about cap until Winter Soldier, no one cared about Thor and hulk until Ragnarok. Thor 1 and 2 may aswell be called Loki 1 and 2. Iron man carries the MCU for the entirety of phase 1

 

[Madam-Shogun]

IMO they need to streamline things, if they want a cinematic universe. For one they need to can these elseworlds movies. Rumor has it that Batman might be set in the Todd Philips joker verse, and i'm like are you serious?? If Matt Reeves was working for Lucasfilm, or Marvel they would have given him the boot for not wanting to make a film within the MCU. Unless Affleck is still Bruce in some capacity.

But otherwise i think DCEU is going in the right direction. I just hope they don't try to copy Marvel's annoying bathos style humor. But if that's the direction they're going in then i'll wash my hands with both cinematic verses tbh.

 

[Protar]

You're the one being a pedant. Supes got his movie, WW got her movie, Batman doesn't need a movie, Suicide Squad gets ignored, just like Norton Hulk the Supporting cast Widow, Hawkeye, flash, Aquaman, and Cyborg get their introduction in other peoples movies.

Are BvS or Justice League better movies as is, simply because the other characters get their movies first? The answer is no.

They don't need to start over the MCU has basically soft rebooted the phase one avengers and in hulks case, twice, In Avengers and Ragnarok. No one cared about cap until Winter Soldier, no one cared about Thor and hulk until Ragnarok. Thor 1 and 2 may aswell be called Loki 1 and 2. Iron man carries the MCU for the entirety of phase 1

I don't see how anyone can say that Batman doesn't need a solo movie in a DC cinematic universe. He is arguably their most popular character. It is insane that after 5 years of DCEU movies he has yet to get a solo movie and there still isn't one in production.

The MCU has certainly changed the style of their films, and the portrayal of their characters over time. But they've done that because, for the most part, the MCU films have been successful and critically acclaimed. There's been no reason to start over again, they have just had to smooth out a few kinks. Now I'm not saying that critical consensus is everything, but every MCU film is over 60% on RT, whereas Wonder Woman is the only DCEU film above 60%. This is not a discussion of small tweaks that DC can do to improve, the whole thing needs a huge overall.

 

[blackdragon6]

I don't see how anyone can say that Batman doesn't need a solo movie in a DC cinematic universe. He is arguably their most popular character. It is insane that after 5 years of DCEU movies he has yet to get a solo movie and there still isn't one in production.

The MCU has certainly changed the style of their films, and the portrayal of their characters over time. But they've done that because, for the most part, the MCU films have been successful and critically acclaimed. There's been no reason to start over again, they have just had to smooth out a few kinks. Now I'm not saying that critical consensus is everything, but every MCU film is over 60% on RT, whereas Wonder Woman is the only DCEU film above 60%. This is not a discussion of small tweaks that DC can do to improve, the whole thing needs a huge overall.

I don't think Batman really needed a movie either tbh, At least not in the sense of a necessity, and definitely not in terms of a origin story. I want a DCEU batman film but i don't think it's imperative that the verse get one sooner than later. I personally think Supes needs a movie far more along with Flash and Aquaman

 

[Nemeres]

I'm not a fan of the Flashpoint idea at this point. It'd be essentially Company Regrets: The Movie. I'm not super sure how you'd make that work to good effect, either. Cherrypick specific bits that you'd rather retcon for sequels and somehow make it justify the recasting of only certain actors? I don't think you can aspire to something that feels 100% seamless, but soft reboots feel the least clunky and most honest way of building sth cool for the future. Develop standalone franchises into something so appealing that people go back to wanting to see them all together and put themselves in "forgiveness mode" for the obvious continuity breaks.

I remember when MOS was being made, I hated it when folks talked about Justice League and a shared universe as a priority, precisely because it might mess things up for the DC film series as a whole. It's exactly what ended up happening. I think for the time being the best they could do is focus on standalones, maybe odd pairings here and there. A Flash/Cyborg film. An Aquaman/WW film. A movie w the new Batman and maybe Cavill's Superman, or a new one. Leave the big team-ups for years down the line.

 

[divan]

I don't think Batman really needed a movie either tbh, At least not in the sense of a necessity, and definitely not in terms of a origin story. I want a DCEU batman film but i don't think it's imperative that the verse get one sooner than later. I personally think Supes needs a movie far more along with Flash and Aquaman

While I don't think anyone in the audience would ever be confused about Batman's general history (specially given BvS was the characters first showing after The Dark Knight films), this Batman certainly needed some legwork it just didn't get. This is a Batman who, in his first movie, comes with a lot of personal baggage and who shows a personality that's certainly distinct from Batman's prior popular incarnations, and we are never really shown why (sure, things are "suggested" but everything about good guys becoming bad guys in Gotham and Robin's death in BvS is either exposition or stuff so vague it could be anything, nothing's really put into a scene and dramatized). If anything, instead of yet another flashback to Batman's origin BvS could have started with the incident that killed Batman's partner and made him angry at the world at large.

 

[Madam-Shogun]

If anything, instead of yet another flashback to Batman's origin BvS could have started with the incident that killed Batman's partner and made him angry at the world at large.

I have always felt that BvS should have been a duology. The first film fleshing out Batman and his baggage while still featuring Superman. And the second half fleshing out the distrust of BvS leading up to their eventual showdown. I must admit i'm still intrigued by Affleck's interpretation of Bruce though.

 

[FunkMiller]

I know of enough people that do care.
.

No, you don't. You think you do, but you don't.

Decisions on whether to make movies or not is not based on what hardcore fans want. It's not based on anecdotal evidence about how lots of people you know are still talking about the DCEU.

Newsflash - you, me, and all of those who spend time discussing this stuff is a tiny, tiny part of the overall movie going audience across the world. While movie companies would like us to approve of the product they are putting out, we rank well below the casual movie-going audience.

And for large budget tentpole blockbuster movies, this is precisely the right way to go about things.

The DCEU was wholeheartedly rejected by that casual, movie-going audience in November. Hence why you've heard absolutely no concrete news about DC movies going forward, direct from WB. They still really don't know what the **** to do.

Because it's plainly clear that the vast, vast majority of the audience couldn't give a rosy red **** about the DCEU anymore. They've moved on. They have Infinity War, and Deadpool, and Jurassic World, and Ant Man, and Skyscraper, and Mission Impossible to think about. And when Aquaman eventually rolls around, they'll remember how crappy those other movies with that guy in them were, and they won't go to see that either.

If any of us are going to be able to have a sensible and pragmatic conversation about how WB and DC moves forward, the truth that we are a very small part of the overall audience has to be acknowledged.

Forget Flashpoint. It's never, ever happening. It's the kind of thing fans want not what studios or the general audience wants.

 

[Tra-El]

No, you don't. You think you do, but you don't.

Decisions on whether to make movies or not is not based on what hardcore fans want. It's not based on anecdotal evidence about how lots of people you know are still talking about the DCEU.

Newsflash - you, me, and all of those who spend time discussing this stuff is a tiny, tiny part of the overall movie going audience across the world. While movie companies would like us to approve of the product they are putting out, we rank well below the casual movie-going audience.

And for large budget tentpole blockbuster movies, this is precisely the right way to go about things.

The DCEU was wholeheartedly rejected by that casual, movie-going audience in November. Hence why you've heard absolutely no concrete news about DC movies going forward, direct from WB. They still really don't know what the **** to do.

Because it's plainly clear that the vast, vast majority of the audience couldn't give a rosy red **** about the DCEU anymore. They've moved on. They have Infinity War, and Deadpool, and Jurassic World, and Ant Man, and Skyscraper, and Mission Impossible to think about. And when Aquaman eventually rolls around, they'll remember how crappy those other movies with that guy in them were, and they won't go to see that either.

If any of us are going to be able to have a sensible and pragmatic conversation about how WB and DC moves forward, the truth that we are a very small part of the overall audience has to be acknowledged.

Forget Flashpoint. It's never, ever happening. It's the kind of thing fans want not what studios or the general audience wants.

The casual audience follows the buzz. If SDCC is a big hit for DC/WB and if the first glimpses of these next films look the part and offer interest and hype then not only will the audience have Infinity War or MI:6 to look forward to, they'll have Aquaman, Shazam! and WW84 as well. It's all stragedy to get the casuals back. First, you create hype and go from there. We haven't heard anything but that may be because they're hard at work lining their next move up. If the DCEU was dead, we would have heard about the fold a long time ago. SDCC will be a day WB/DC can get back on top of things if they choose to do so.

 

[blackdragon6]

No, I get what you're saying.

I think of those three options the third is the most likely. It's certainly the one I hope they go with.

Same...