The Dark Knight Rises What do you not like about the movie?

[darknight7]

He called his mate the flash.

LOL zing!

--dk7

 

[batmanofbaylor]

My thought about how Bruce returned to the city--last time we see "the bat" before he is broken its in the cave. After Bruce returns, its on the roof. I'd say it's safe to say that he flew in, since it seemed like only the downtown area was cut off.

 

[darknight7]

Has anyone brought up Bane still just a pawn? A guard dog? For a woman? He was Batman&Robin'd again?

To me it felt like he was following R'as Al Ghul's plan because he was in love and therefore was doing it for her not for himself.

--dk7

 

[craigdbfan]

Has anyone brought up Bane still just a pawn? A guard dog? For a woman? He was Batman&Robin'd again?

To me it felt like he was following R'as Al Ghul's plan because he was in love and therefore was doing it for her not for himself.

--dk7

Spoiler

I didn't really feel he was a lapdog. In fact their relationship felt rather mutual for me.

This is how I see it. Bane was never truly accepted into the LoS even before his banishment by Ra's for being too extreme. Talia explains how she always felt some rancor towards her father for not seeing Bane as someone able to lead the LoS because he saw him as damaged goods due to the injuries he had sustained and reminding him of the jail that once housed his wife where she met her demise.

It only added insult to injury knowing that her father swooned over Wayne so much only to end being "betrayed" and "murdered" by this man.

Talia as a way to make it up to Bane lets him lead the LoS alongside her as equals letting him do what he had always dreamed of and that's leading these men into Gotham and finishing off what Ra's wasn't able to finish. Both Bane and Talia were blinded by the resentment they felt towards Ra's and I feel convinced themselves into thinking they were fulfilling Ra's wishes while in reality were doing it out of spite and revenge towards both Batman/Wayne and Ra's for all the pain they had brought onto them.

That's the vibe I got from the both of them. Two individuals who felt greatly betrayed and unappreciated by their leader and father who also had a chip on their shoulder against Batman for indirectly robbing Bane of his deserved position and by being the main reason for having Ra's die. Bringing more pain onto an already open wound.

As much as Talia and Bane wanted to convince themselves and Batman apparently that they were finishing off Ra's plan I feel they were mainly acting out of vengeance and let their anger destroy them.

 

[darknight7]

Spoiler

I didn't really feel he was a lapdog. In fact their relationship felt rather mutual for me.

This is how I see it. Bane was never truly accepted into the LoS even before his banishment by Ra's for being too extreme. Talia explains how she always felt some rancor towards her father for not seeing Bane as someone able to lead the LoS because he saw him as damaged goods due to the injuries he had sustained and reminding him of the jail that once housed his wife where she met her demise.

It only added insult to injury knowing that her father swooned over Wayne so much only to end being "betrayed" and "murdered" by this man.

Talia as a way to make it up to Bane lets him lead the LoS alongside her as equals letting him do what he had always dreamed of and that's leading these men into Gotham and finishing off what Ra's wasn't able to finish. Both Bane and Talia were blinded by the resentment they felt towards Ra's and I feel convinced themselves into thinking they were fulfilling Ra's wishes while in reality were doing it out of spite and revenge towards both Batman/Wayne and Ra's for all the pain they had brought onto them.

That's the vibe I got from the both of them. Two individuals who felt greatly betrayed and unappreciated by their leader and father who also had a chip on their shoulder against Batman for indirectly robbing Bane of his deserved position and by being the main reason for having Ra's die. Bringing more pain onto an already open wound.

As much as Talia and Bane wanted to convince themselves and Batman apparently that they were finishing off Ra's plan I feel they were mainly acting out of vengeance and let their anger destroy them.

Brilliant. I like smart people like you. A very great way of looking at this.
Thanks.

--dk7

 

[craigdbfan]

Brilliant. I like smart people like you. A very great way of looking at this.
Thanks.

--dk7

Thanks man I appreciate the compliment.

Having the movie sink in these past few days has been good medicine. I felt very much like you in certain regards towards this movie but I am starting to appreciate a great deal of the material as time passes by.

Initially I came out loving most of it while still being greatly frustrated by how certain aspects were handled but I think this is a movie that takes some time and replays to figure out where one stands on it. I'm still not completely sure what to make of it to be honest but having it digest has certainly brought my opinion of the movie up rather than down.

I'll be watching TDKR for a second time this Tuesday as I still haven't been able to give this movie a rating and hopefully I'll be able to acclimate to certain things that didn't quite click with me the first go around.

 

[Kapital]

I feel the same way as you craigdbfan. I need more days to think what i saw because i found some things that i didn´t like.

The first thing

Spoiler

it´s the nuclear bomb. I don´t like the image of "THE BAT" going with the bomb to the ocean.

I also don´t like certain subplots of the movie (the

Spoiler

war inside Wayne Industries

) and the character of Miranda Tate.

But i need to see it again to think about it.

 

[SingItWithMeNow]

Doug over at TGWTG.com has voiced his opinion, and even though hes kinda opinionated he brought up an interesting point that TDKR seems to have jumped over TDK, almost like a new Batman Begins 2.

 

[Eggyman]

I don't like how big the film tries to be. The thing is, it never needed to try. It's already there in the themes. There were too many characters taking screen time that would have better been spent on Bruce. I get what they were doing with JGL, but I didn't feel the pay-off. I'd've cut him.

I would also cut one of the female leads, allowing one of them to fully develop. Even though Hathaway was great, I'd probably cut Catwoman. I feel Miranda fit this franchise better

Spoiler

bringing it back to begins

If Miranda had Catwoman's time on screen, I'd feel better about the film. She never had much of an impact until the end, and then it felt a little too Scooby Doo. O, and, the climax for the character on my viewing earned laughter. One of the worst movie deaths I've seen in a while with the...ek...arg...movie-death-last-breath-gonna-die-lol...terrible heh.

The ball was dropped there. I've asked before: They must've had a better take, and if not, why?

The story they were already telling was big enough, and a few times I felt that the focus of the narrative was wrong. Sometimes it felt like I was missing the cool stuff while watching the extras.

 

[litobirdy]

Im sure its been mentioned but the whole matthew modine/Foley character. HOLY WASTE OF CRAP.... could have given all his screen time to gordon or something... he was completely completely pointless. Dont give me that ( he was kinda like the outside looking in, 3rd point of view crap). he was just BLAHHHHHHHHHHHH

 

[TAK The Voyager]

It ended.

 

[Havok83]

Not enough Batman. I prefer watching the Dark Knight onscreen over Bruce Wayne

Catwoman pretty much dissappears midway through and I felt there wasnt enough of her. I didnt like that she wasnt called Catwoman at all in the film

 

[Leenie]

Doug over at TGWTG.com has voiced his opinion, and even though hes kinda opinionated he brought up an interesting point that TDKR seems to have jumped over TDK, almost like a new Batman Begins 2.

It's an interesting and valid point. It's not a complaint on my part, per se, but I'll explain myself:

I think TDKR ended up being Batman Begins 2 because of Heath Ledger's death, personally. I have a feeling that Nolan had some big plans with The Joker for the final movie. Unfortunately, that couldn't happen.

 

[Zimmy]

I liked it but I had major issues with it, all of which has probably been repeated here.

1) Not enough Batman, I guess that was the point of the movie but almost 3 hours and what, 20-30 minutes of Batman?

2) The assassination of Alfred's "character", what was built up in the first 2 films and he just leaves in a hissy fit in this one to help with this plot. Can't have Alfred holed up in a dark mansion for 5 months.

3) I won't get into the huge joke that was the stock exchange heist. I would think there are basic controls in case that really happened.
And Wayne, who probably has given half of his fortune to Gotham City, makes a crazy, suspicous trade at the same time as the stock exchange was taken over and loses money.
Does the city investigate? Nope, let's shut down power to his house within 10 minutes of the news coming out. Great job Gotham!

4) Where is this magic prison? Connecticut? Did Bruce call in a favor to Superman to get him back to Gotham?

5) Loved Tom Hardy but Bane is really just a big dude who is a trained fighter, Batman can't handle him at all? And what did Batman learn in the second fight? Go after the mask?

6) Conveniences - the Blake catching Gordon, the "Bat copter" being a block away from where the cops have him cornered, Batman meeting Gordon at the Exile spot, then just a hop skip and a jump to were Blake is getting beat up.

7) Bane turns into the Batman & Robin Bane right down to the hand on the face, my love.

8) off screen deaths which loses all impact, Matthew Modine, Bane?

9) The plot of course makes no sense, it would have worked perfectly if they would have set the bomb off at the football stadium, why the wait?

Nolan still can't direct a fight scene to save himself but they were 100% better then the fight scenes in TDK.

 

[itsthebatman]

I completely disagree with the notion that Bane wasn't trying to destroy Gotham. That was most definitely his end game. Bane's entire spiel of Gotham taking "control" of their city was a ruse to get the disenfranchised of Gotham to go up against the very wealthy and take everything they had and do essentially whatever they wanted as long as it wasn't uprising against Bane & his mercs. While they were all busy relishing in lawless Gotham the fusion reactor was going into meltdown regardless if anyone followed Bane's orders or not. It was missing the core so meltdown was an inevitability.

This was made abundantly clear.

100% agree. He was just sadistically toying with them.

Sadly I have to agree. This film felt like a typical, rushed, copout to me. With such a heavy political/revolution undertone and a nuke...uninteresting. I wanted a Batman movie, not a movie with Batman in it. It's like the took Dark Knight Returns, sucked the awesome out of it and then put it on screen with plot holes and flaws. Sad to see the franchise go out on such a low note. Many will disagree with me (but I'm sure some will agree) either way I am not here to argue, so don't start with me because I don't have the time or energy to get into it.

--dk7

I wouldn't say a copout, but I would say that it's political themes were fairly muddied and not as well developed as in TDK.

 

[scifiwolf]

Thanks man I appreciate the compliment.

Having the movie sink in these past few days has been good medicine. I felt very much like you in certain regards towards this movie but I am starting to appreciate a great deal of the material as time passes by.

Initially I came out loving most of it while still being greatly frustrated by how certain aspects were handled but I think this is a movie that takes some time and replays to figure out where one stands on it. I'm still not completely sure what to make of it to be honest but having it digest has certainly brought my opinion of the movie up rather than down.

I'll be watching TDKR for a second time this Tuesday as I still haven't been able to give this movie a rating and hopefully I'll be able to acclimate to certain things that didn't quite click with me the first go around.

Me too. My mind was racing so much last night once it all finally registered in my head. The more I've been working on my breakdowns, the more it boggles my mind how intricate the movie was and all the levels everything has. Very much like literature in a lot of ways. Until I can see it again, discussing the details has been a good stand in for repeat viewings. A lot of things have been clicking into place. Plot holes are becoming smaller and going away.

 

[Suzanne78]

This is my first time to post in this forum (for the Bat movies) so, hey!

Yesterday, I saw the movie. Our theater wasn't packed for a matinee show, but then again, I don't think our theater ever sells out. We don't tend to have a lot of traffic to see movies, even on opening weekend. I felt very mixed about it. I really wanted to post here first, since it's fresh in my mind, and I just really want to get it out.

My major cons for the movie were:

-Bruce's "development", or lack thereof, from the end of TDK. It wasn't what I was anticipating, and, to me, it lessened Bruce's character. Bale did a great job in the movie, but I just couldn't get past the fact that

Spoiler

his character stagnates for 7-8 years.

Just was not my thing. I'm not a big Bale or his version of Bruce Wayne, but I really liked him best in TDK. Here, there was so much missing. He did light up with Hathaway, so there's that.

-Lack of Michael Caine. I get why it happened, but this movie was missing Alfred in a big way.

-The action was amazing. Some of the best I've ever seen in a CBM. That being said, the expositiony bits felt awkward and forced to me for a good portion of the first two acts.

-Matthew Modine's character was superfluous IMO. No real reason for him to be there. And Marion Cotillard was... not good in her role. Zero chemistry with Bale.

-I really felt that most of the supporting cast was marginalized, even Freeman. Now, Hathaway and JGL I adored with a thousand suns. Hathaway, in particular, was perfection. I still love Pfeiffer's Selina Kyle, but AH really, really knocked it out of the park. But the rest of the supporting cast that I've come to love for the first two movies were just... kind of there? Yeah. Part of me wishes they hadn't included JGL in it just so the core around Bruce that's been with him through Begins could've had more to do.

-This may be uber nitpicky, but WHY WHY WHY couldn't Nolan get more female extras for the GPD? There were, maybe, two female officers in the whole movie; I saw none during the

Spoiler

Gotham seige

scenes, and in that

Spoiler

mass of GPD officers charging Bane's men

, they were just absent.

-

Spoiler

Talia's story was given short shrift. Her identity was telegraphed from that cameo while Bruce was in the Lazarus Pit, but then when the big reveal came, and it turned out Bane was in love with her the whole time.... I don't know. I laughed. Not in a good way. I loved that final act, but that was just really exasperating for me.

-There were times I felt the movie was a patchwork of Batman storylines. Someone on Twitter described TDKR as "epically halfassing" the big 90's Bat stories. That's pretty much my feeling. Some great moments sandwiching some not so great ones for me.

I absolutely loved the look of the film, though. Magnificently beautiful. The acting was great, as always in a Nolan film, with the exception of Cotillard. The action was truly superb. I just wish more of everything in between the action and good stuff helped me enjoy the movie more. I'd probably give it a 7 or 7.5/10.

As a caveat, I will say because I own Begins and TDK, I'll most likely buy this when it comes out on Blu-Ray, as I'm a completist. Maybe over time, the movie will sink in for me and get better and improve. I'll always keep an open mind about it.

 

[joker1524]

I don't like how big the film tries to be. The thing is, it never needed to try. It's already there in the themes. There were too many characters taking screen time that would have better been spent on Bruce. I get what they were doing with JGL, but I didn't feel the pay-off. I'd've cut him.

I would also cut one of the female leads, allowing one of them to fully develop. Even though Hathaway was great, I'd probably cut Catwoman. I feel Miranda fit this franchise better

Spoiler

bringing it back to begins

If Miranda had Catwoman's time on screen, I'd feel better about the film. She never had much of an impact until the end, and then it felt a little too Scooby Doo. O, and, the climax for the character on my viewing earned laughter. One of the worst movie deaths I've seen in a while with the...ek...arg...movie-death-last-breath-gonna-die-lol...terrible heh.

The ball was dropped there. I've asked before: They must've had a better take, and if not, why?

The story they were already telling was big enough, and a few times I felt that the focus of the narrative was wrong. Sometimes it felt like I was missing the cool stuff while watching the extras.

The film had too many full circle stuff as it is...selina kyle was great...nolan dropped the ball on the lack of screen time she had....i was dissapointed in the lack of scenes she also had with bats...would of been cool to have had a rooftop chase...sorry just not a fan of the moranda character at all...the turn at the end was just a cheesy way to bring everything back to bb and this film already had enough of those elements

 

[Nevincer]

Why did Bruce's picture of Rachel end up being a promotional still of her in the restaraunt with Harvey Dent? It was literally this picture:

I dunno, I just found that kind of weird... doesn't seem like a photo Bruce would have or keep in the movieverse, it was elaborately a film still from TDK in picture frame...

 

[JerseyJoker]

-That it was about a half hour to long.
-That Bane sounded like Chris Walken.
-That John Blake character basically makes Gordon look like a fool. Since Blake can deduce that Bruce is Batman by only seeing him once at a orphans home. While Gordon has been in close contact with him for years.
-Talia/Bane's death. Such a quick and really underwhelming ending for both.
-The ending, which was such a horrible cop out that should be save for some other film, not the end of the Batman trilogy.
-That the second Alfred told his Italy story in the first half hour, i knew EXACTLY how the film was ending.
-Magic knee brace.

 

[Jordanstine]

Compilation of what others have mentioned which I agree upon:

- Not a lot of Batman in the film; a lot more John Blake than even Bruce Wayne

- Bane's death/defeat was cheap, anti-climactic

- Bane's voice is sometimes still hard to understand

- Pacing of the film was a little off

- TDKR's main plots was almost a Batman Begins remake but bigger i.e. LOS bombing the city and breaking out the prisoners, even Bruce's trial trying to climb up the pit (cave in BB), and having the Fusion Reactor stolen (Microwave Emitter in BB).

 

[Frodo]

Over the past 3 days ive liked the film less and less, and defenses i've read of the film's flaws and plot points have actually made me like the film even less. Their are good performances , ideas , and set pieces but ultimately ,it doesn't live up to its potential and it falls apart once I start to think critically examine it.

I really have no desire to see it again anytime soon. If anything, I would probably find even more problems that I have with it if I do, so I don't expect so radical change of heart on my part. In a lot of ways I view this film in the same vein of BR. Its not a bad Batman film, its just not one of the better ones overall imo.

 

[The Guard]

3) I won't get into the huge joke that was the stock exchange heist. I would think there are basic controls in case that really happened.

There are.

 

[The Guard]

And Batman took out the cannons and the tumblers. He's not Magneto -- he can't disarm the entire army. Batman was prepared to act as a general in the war and he did so. The soldiers had to fight their fight as well.

No he didn't. He didn't say much of anything, or lead them in any real sense. They'd even already assembled before he arrived.

 

[The Guard]

Yes. That's exactly how he felt. He wanted those who had been disenfranchised and screwed over by those who had it all to rise up and take control of their city from those who controlled the power. A city doesn't have to be dirty and disgusting to have very, very poor people who are consistently screwed over by very, very wealthy people.... Look at New York.

How were the people of Gotham being screwed over by the wealthy, though? The film never shows us this.

The only corruption and corporate greed we see is from Dagget, who was trying to screw over Bruce Wayne, who isn't exactly the city's masses.

Nolan tried to play on the sympathies of the American people, but it doesn't quite work as motivation to destroy a fictional city.

In my opinion, the film's explanation and reasoning for Bane's motives is weak. And that is part of film's flaws. Bane's plan was all over the place. Blow up the city, start a revolution against the corrupt (in a city you claim is no longer corrupt, thanks to the Dent act), and finally he's doing something that doesn't really make any intellectual sense (fulfilling the wish of Ras, the man who exiled him for saving his own daughter's life), for love.

What was supposed to separate Bane from the Joker was his decisive intelligence. "It's all part of the plan". He had a plan, and wanted to execute it. However, the plan was weak in context, and at times he just seemed to be wanting different things.

Agreed. And that's largely, I think, because Bane didn't really have his own motivations. They were Talia's, borne out of a plan for revenge, which is also pretty cliche a motivation.

Bane was a glorified thug. I'm starting to think they watched the episodes of BATMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES with Bane in them and didn't actually read KNIGHTFALL or LEGACY.

But this film is so deep, and complex and dense. But it's not incomprehensible. All of the information is there.

Deep? Not really.

Complex? Eh...in that its convoluted, I guess, but its not a terribly clever way to put together a film.

All of the information is arguably there, but that doesn't mean it's well handled or written.

Bane had a plan. And it wasn't to blow up the city.

Bane's plan was to give the control of the city to those he felt deserved it. The people.

No, his plan was to make them think they were in control. And I'm not even sure it was his plan.

He was against the greed that the wealthy and the powerful had. It wasn't out and out corruption, as in "corrupt cops" and the "mob" which the Dent Act DID stamp out. It was corruption in the form of capitalism. Where the poor are forgotten and disenfranchised, while the wealthy pick the city clean.

Which the movie never showed.

Bane said exactly what the bomb was being used for. "This is the instrument of your liberation." He didn't want to detonate the bomb. He doesn't want to blow up the city. The bomb was the leverage that he was giving the poor and the disenfranchised to take the power from the wealthy. He "gave the trigger to a regular citizen" so that the regular citizens would have the power over the ruling class.

The bomb was his leverage to keep outside forces from intervening. And he planned to use it. The regular citizen nonsense was just to divert suspicion from Miranda.

Bane didn't want to watch Gotham's people suffer. He wanted watch those who used to run Gotham suffer. People who he thought were part of a broken system. Gordon, the Mayor and even Batman were included in this. That's why blew up the luxury boxes at the football game but left the regular fans unharmed. He encouraged the regular citizens to kick the rich out of their penthouses. Those who were being "judged" by Crane were all of the ruling class -- I saw no blue collar people falling through ice.

This is true, but his reasoning for it is silly, and he mainly (Talia) wanted Bruce to suffer.

And Bane subscribed to the belief that it was his responsibility to restore order in Gotham because it was a belief held by Talia, the woman he loved. And it was a belief held by Ra's, a man he respected but whose approval he could never earn.

So he basically didn't have his own motivations.

Bane gave Gotham the time limit on the bomb to force their hand. If they took control of their city in the allotted time he would have placed the bomb back and ruled over this new Gotham. But Gotham did NOT "take control," instead, many tried to take back control from Bane. And because of this -- the bomb's timer continued to tick down...

See -- I don't think the plan was to just destroy the city. They wanted to reshape it. But they were prepared to die and prepared to take the city out if failure seemed possible, and people didn't cooperate. They wanted to make Bruce watch as he and the "old guard" (Gordon, Mayor Garcia, the Wayne Family, etc) lost control of Gotham and it fell into Bane's control.

But when the time came, and Talia and Bane saw that Gotham was never going to accept their new world order, the martyrs that they were -- had no choice but to destroy the city....and they wanted Bruce to live through it, die in it, and experience every death.

Uh...no.

He very much planned to blow up Gotham City. He told Bruce as much, and since Talia was behind it all, this was her plan all along.

Would have been nice to see Bane and Talia at odds a bit, perhaps with Bane wanting to rule Gotham, or with her wanting to rule it, or...something, but no. They just wanted to make Bruce suffer and then blow it up.

Bane had a pretty clear plan, and equally clear motivation.

The problem is that his motivation amounts to "punishing" Bruce Wayne and Gotham City, and that his motivation was basically just an extension of Talia's, and Ra's Al Ghul's from BATMAN BEGINS.

And other than "I follow orders", we're never given a reason why Bane would feel this way.

Heck, even that, Bane being someone who blindly follows orders and turns into a more assertive character who tries to wrest control of the city from Talia, that could have made a compelling motivation/character exploration, but it wasn't explored.

There's not nealry enough of the rich hurting the weak to make his actions make sense. Its not well handled. And its not very deep.

I'm not sure we all did see the same thing. We have people asking the following:

-How did Bane know Bruce was Batman?
-How did Blake know Bruce was Batman?
-How did Alfred find Bruce in the end at the Cafe?
-How did Blake find the Batcave?

So on and so forth. MOST of the questions are basic and easily answered by watching the film. And when you are asking how Blake knew Batman was Bruce... and there is an entire scene dedicated to Blake telling Bruce how he knew... It makes me think you went to the bathroom at that moment. Or that you don't watch the screen and see the coordinates to the Batcave written on a piece of paper in the bag in Blake's passenger's seat.

Here's the thing. Yes, this is in the film. But with the exception of Blake finding the cave, the rest is not well handled, and is basically just shoehorned into the film to begin with.

I'm off to bed. This has been fun. I understand that you liked the movie, and I'm with you -- it has it's flaws... But I think it's getting a bum rap with some of these "flaws."

A flaw is a flaw.

A filmmaker making a movie that COMPOUNDS those flaws because he and his writing crew didn't think things through...that makes for a messy film.

For instance, the shot of Batman in The Bat. I get what it is. But its inclusion is what is confusing people, and leading them to question the realistic nature of Batman's escape based on the "trap" he was in as a character.

The film is full of weak executions and awkward filmmaking like that.

There are some REALLY good ideas in this movie. A lot of them are half baked because of ther way the film is assembled.