BvS What OTHER elements from The Dark Knight Returns could we see?

[Batmannerism]

I find TDKR haterz to be on this kind of plane.

*They don't like the Superman portrayal and his relationship to THIS Batman (understandable)
*They don't like its influence on later comics.
*They don't like the way Batman's portrayed (I like the book, and that's also understandable)
*They don't think it's well written (Okay, that I CAN'T understand)
*They don't like the art style or divergence from usual Batman incarnations (Frank draws in a blocky, but visually striking manner. The fight with the Mutants in the Tank stands out in my mind. As for the "it's different" thing, it was intended to be an Elseworlds.)

Yeah ! hear you ! It's weird that what made that story so great is what
some people hated about it. I firmly believe that when Bane was created (the comic Bane) the mutant leader fight scene had some influence (in the look of the characters perhaps, if not the personality of Bane).

Still rank DKR as best Batman story ever, (followed closely by Batman Year One) on that note, highly rank Batman: Venom, the Denny O'Neil story from the early 90's).

Totally agree with the dude who said NO DKSA, wow, how could Miller get it so right.....and then so wrong. There are good moments in DKSA, but DKR ended on such a great note, a sequel was the last thing it needed.
He kind of crapped on his earlier work, without meaning to.

It's like Highlander 2, if you've seen Highlander ( a real action classic from the 80's, it's goofy but fun, and gave rise to the immortal line "There can be only one !") anyway, the first movie finishes pretty much the same as the Matrix (another movie which did NOT need any sequels), and then along comes Highlander 2 and ruins the first movie. Before going to see it, a buddy of mine said "Don't go see it. It'll ruin the first movie for you."
Of course I went to see it anyway, and yes....it ruined the first movie for
me. As you can see, I'm over it now......or not.

So DKSA is like Highlander 2 and Matrix revolutions, the sequel we didn't
deserve, and definitely not the one we needed.

Cheers.

 

[lc23]

What Batman fanboys seem to forget (and I say this as a Batman fan, too) is that this is supposed to be a movie featuring both him and Superman. The smartest thing to do would be to use World's Finest and Superman/Batman books at varying points in their history for the source material to get ideas for character interaction as well as plot points.

The worst thing to do would be to use an Elseworld's Batman story like DKR that's so heavily skewed in favor of said character. I especially do not need to see the author's creepy obsession with turning nearly every female character into a "prostitute" and/or labeling them as such incorporated into this movie. Nor do I want Superman's portrayal tainted by Miller's unhealthy hate-on for the character. I am beyond not here for a deluded Bruce Wayne raving at his minion(s) about the supposedly big, dumb Boy Scout who keeps getting in his way, and how he's the only one who understands what's right for the world. Ugh. No, thank you.

 

[shauner111]

Gordon in Year One is a much tougher, take no non-sense type of guy. Or at least he becomes that when he has to. Oldmans was milder.

 

[Batmannerism]

Gordon in Year One is a much tougher, take no non-sense type of guy. Or at least he becomes that when he has to. Oldmans was milder.

Yeah, Oldman's Gordon is quite cynical and jaded, but I don't think they were as far apart as people say. Gordon in BMBegins is quite similar to BM Year one's Gordon, maybe not as a one-man army, but he's still the one good cop in a bad town who can't get things done, due to all the corrupt cops.

Oldman's Gordon showed plenty of grit when all the lunatics were escaping
from Arkham. Also, remember its Gordon who saves Batman's ass from the Joker in TDK, after he crashes the Batpod


A lot of scenes in BM Begins mirror panels from BM Year one, I think they kept a pretty consistent version of Gordon, without taking away the focus from Bruce/Batman. Maybe Oldman wasn't an overpowering presence, but he certainly did what the Gordon character is supposed to do...that's give us a view of how an ordinary, decent person deals with Batman.

Later, in TDKR we see a very world-weary Gordon, on the verge of giving up, not as old as Miller's DKR Gordon, but both had that real sense of
failure about them. That they couldn't go on any further - although TDKR 's Gordon was overwhelmed with guilt for the deception he'd perpetrated
against the people of Gotham, whereas Miller's Gotham has a somewhat
cleaner conscience (but not much).

Maybe an older Gordon is what BM/SM needs.

 

[Rodrigo90]

A retired and mentally tortured, Bruce Wayne.

Say during the events of MOS, Batman, has or is considering going into retirement.

Goyer, pretty much, doesn't want to make a Batman an absolute, like he is in the comics. He wants to give the characters more substance, that makes sense to the respective characterization elements.

Batman, may be in his early 40's, but it's hinted he's tired and weary of crime fighting, and there has to be a reason.
Bruce may be looking to faze out his Batman persona and during this movie, he's pushed it aside and continuing to do so. He's resorted to doing more charity work, that benefits the world more than he thinks Batman ever could. He's just become disillusioned. Another traumatic event before or during MOS may have led him to think about retirement.

I just think they should do something with the old age concept of characters, than just having them look older and behave the same as always.

It'd be nice if he rediscovers himself here and his passion for Justice, thanks to Superman, and the two go on to form the JL.

 

[Rorschach2012]

I don't want to see Batman discover himself again. That was already covered with TDKRises. I want this Batman to be sure of himself

 

[Rodrigo90]

The tired and weary description doesn't make me think that.

And a part of me thinks Goyer is trying to make this Batman a tad like Bale's.

 

[Lord]

Well. There's a few key elements that I expect to be used:


1) Batman will be a veteran, having already been Batman for a some time.

2) Batman will be a wanted vigilante.

And

3) Superman will have aligned himself with the government.

I think it's going to be the oposite

 

[Rodrigo90]

I'm certain Superman will be on good terms with the Government.

Could be them that convince Superman to bring down Batman.

 

[Rodrigo90]

We're all assuming the following -

Bruce Wayne goes to Metropolis.
Lex Luthor is the villain.

Who's to say Lex doesn't take a back seat in this?
Who's to say Bruce is the one after Superman? Could be Superman that's after Batman for some reason.

 

[Lord]

I'm certain Superman will be on good terms with the Government.

Could be them that convince Superman to bring down Batman.

Last time he was with the military he destroyed a satélite and made what could be considered a threat by some.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

And a part of me thinks Goyer is trying to make this Batman a tad like Bale's.

I agree, and I don't think that's a bad idea. Pardon me for using a term coined by Bryan Singer to describe an inferior Superman movie, but I think it makes sense to treat the teamup movie as a "vague sequel" to the Dark Knight trilogy so far as Batman as concerned.

By this I mean that whereas in the 1989-97 Batman movies Bruce Wayne was just always Batman, in the Nolan films audiences actually saw his origin in excruciating detail. We saw a young Batman and his first encounters with all the classic Bat-villains - Joker, Catwoman, Two-Face, Ra's al-Ghul, Scarecrow. In the process, and to much critical acclaim and record-setting box office grosses, Christian Bale became Batman for a generation.

That's a tough act to follow. MOS got made thanks to Nolan's clout at Warner Bros. after the Dark Knight trilogy, and his name featured heavily in the marketing for the movie - which itself had a strong influence from the Nolan movies given that it had the same writer and likewise opted for a "gritty realistic" approach.

But while the DC Cinematic Universe as imagined by Snyder is Nolan-like, there is clearly a difference in that it also allows much more fantastic science fiction concepts, which would have jarred with Nolan's more prominent concern for "realism". The beauty of that for Batman is that we can have a return to a more fantastic approach as well - somewhere between Nolan's "realistic" Batman and Tim Burton's gothic vision (Ben Affleck has the potential to direct some great solo Batman films).

A rebooted Batman shouldn't mimic all the aspects of the previous version - otherwise what's the point of a reboot? - but I don't see a problem with retaining influence. The best analogy is James Bond. Prior to the Craig version, with its very linear history, all previous Bond movies had been in a sense "vague sequels" despite recasting.

Audiences have already seen Batman as a young man and an older one who came out of retirement only to retire again at the end of The Dark Knight Rises, one of the most financially successful movies ever (not adjusting for inflation). By the time 2015 rolls around, that'll have been only three years ago. Bale's Batman is still too fresh in everyone's minds for the producers of this movie to ignore it completely, IMO.

That's why I think it's a great idea for Affleck's Bruce to be "tired and weary", especially if they're looking for that Dark Knight Returns influence. It allows general audiences who remember what happened in The Dark Knight Rises to in a sense jump off from there.

Even though Nolan's trilogy will be unrelated to the DC Cinematic Universe, it can still work as a sort of vague history (another analogy: Ang Lee's Hulk and Louis Leterrier's The Incredible Hulk) - except as pointed out by another poster, this will be a Batman in his early 40s rather than his 50s as in Miller's story. Coincidentally, that's about the same age as Bale's Batman would have been if Warner Bros. had somehow managed to convince him to return as Batman.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

I wouldn't be surprised if we had a scene with Superman's hand around Batman's throat, flaring up his heat vision but letting Bruce go, harkening back to the classic line.

(I want you to remember that I 'could' have killed you, but didn't, because I only kill when it's absolutely necessary)

 

[smallville fan]

I wouldn't be surprised if we had a scene with Superman's hand around Batman's throat, flaring up his heat vision but letting Bruce go, harkening back to the classic line.

(I want you to remember that I 'could' have killed you, but didn't, because I only kill when it's absolutely necessary)

I actually speculate that a similar story to TDKReturns could actually play out with a significant role reversal happening.

Here's a post I made from another thread with my idea for how it could go:

In my mind, it would play out something like this, in TDKReturns, you have Superman who's on the omniscient higher authority antagonist's(US Government's) speed-dial and beck and call while old Batman is the upstart making a name for himself in Gotham and we know how that story goes. In my mind, for the movie it would still have something like that happening, but differently. Superman's the upstart making a name for himself in Metropolis doing the whole "Truth, Justice & The American Way" thing and just being Superman, stopping crime, left right and center and helping workers rebuild Metropolis, and just generally helping people, heck throw in a scene of saving a cat from a tree or helping an old woman cross the street haha. Of course people are somehow warming up to him(for argument's sake let's say the damage to Metropolis wasn't as bad as we thought it was and more people are actually left displaced rather than killed) and the Daily Planet writing glowing reports about Superman. Of course not everyone's happy about the alien, here we introduce Lex Luthor, who takes the place of the US Government as the omniscient higher authority from TDKReturns.

Luthor doesn't like what he sees and feels Superman upstages him at every corner(perhaps show him flipping through the latest issue of the Daily Planet where Superman is pages 1-5 while Luthor's page 10 lol). Luthor flips out and decides to concot his plan to take own the Man of Steel by first framing him for a crime he didn't commit, preferably murder(ala Public Enemies) and of course Superman goes on the run trying to prove his innocence as seen in the comic/animated movie, Lois could help here if she wants. Since no known police can actually take someone like Superman in, Lex uses his connections to a friend in Gotham City(Jim Gordon) who in turn calls in the people's superhero Batman, who supposedly handles an assortment of freaks like this on a daily basis.

The movie becomes pretty much a cat and mouse game between Superman & Batman culminating in a fight in Gotham's Crime Alley ala TDKReturns. So Batman then uses an assortment of different gadgets and traps to stall Superman and then of course releases the Kryptonite(Here Batman would just call it "radioactive meteor rock which simulates your home turf". Batman, being smart could make some analogy to how we are different in other planets like how when Astronauts go to the moon they become weightless etc and reasoned that materials from your home world must soften you up or something). Then Batman grabs and throws Superman through an adjacent nearby building and then a section of it collapses and is about to fall on a mother, father and an 8 year old boy. Superman sees this and with a final burst of his heat vision destroys it into debris ala Superman Returns. Batman looks on and is stunned and horrified about what he nearly did and realises that Superman is not the bad guy. Then the sun comes up and shines on Superman.(Think of it as a form of symbolism, that the night had its fun and now is the light's turn to
take over). Superman uses a burst of speed and swoops down on Batman.(On a side note, the Kryptonite ran out and is out of Superman's system).

*Superman grabs Batman by the throat*

Superman: "Did you realise what you just nearly did?!"
Batman(gasps):"I needed to neutralize you. You scare people, you think you are high and mighty and above the law taking lives as you please, you are no God!"
Superman:"You're one to talk with what you nearly did there!"
Superman:"I want you to remember...Bruce Wayne"
*Batman's eyes widen in horror that Superman knew who he was this whole time*
Superman: "I want you to remember this symbol Bruce, it means hope. My father sent me here for a reason: to be a symbol of hope for tommorow and every day after that in all the years to come. I'm not here to rule over you or act as judge, jury, executioner. I know that now, from first hand, I want you to remember Bruce, I will never kneel before evil."
Superman: "My purpose in life is to protect life and fight for Truth, Justice and the Right Way. If lives are in danger, I want you to remember that I will always inspire hope."
Batman: "I know that now."
*Superman releases Batman*
Superman: "Fight's over"
Batman: "Luthor..."
Superman:"What?"
Batman:"It's Luthor, he did it"

 

[CharlieS]

I don't think Batman will be traumatized maybe tortured but not traumatized and i think Batman will be in retirement before the events of Metropolis. In TDK Returns he was in retirement because he got enough with Batman and that he wanted to live a normal life like anybody. Gordon was in retirement in TDK Returns i think it's why they made a Gotham show.

 

[CharlieS]

With the Gotham show the rogue gallery of Batman and Gotham itself will be nearly absent or completely absent.

 

[CharlieS]

Bruce will be exhausted of Batman.

 

[CharlieS]

Why Batman should be traumatized he's not a little *****.

 

[CharlieS]

In TDK Returns and in TDKS Again Lex Luthor blackmailed Superman, he kidnapped the last survivor of Krypton the city of Kandor. Lex Luthor put Superman under pressure. The kyptonite was used in many Superman's films and as there is a lot of different kind of Kryptonite Lex Luthor could use a different Kryptonite color to put Superman under pressure or under control.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

I actually speculate that a similar story to TDKReturns could actually play out with a significant role reversal happening.

Here's a post I made from another thread with my idea for how it could go:

In my mind, it would play out something like this, in TDKReturns, you have Superman who's on the omniscient higher authority antagonist's(US Government's) speed-dial and beck and call while old Batman is the upstart making a name for himself in Gotham and we know how that story goes. In my mind, for the movie it would still have something like that happening, but differently. Superman's the upstart making a name for himself in Metropolis doing the whole "Truth, Justice & The American Way" thing and just being Superman, stopping crime, left right and center and helping workers rebuild Metropolis, and just generally helping people, heck throw in a scene of saving a cat from a tree or helping an old woman cross the street haha. Of course people are somehow warming up to him(for argument's sake let's say the damage to Metropolis wasn't as bad as we thought it was and more people are actually left displaced rather than killed) and the Daily Planet writing glowing reports about Superman. Of course not everyone's happy about the alien, here we introduce Lex Luthor, who takes the place of the US Government as the omniscient higher authority from TDKReturns.

Luthor doesn't like what he sees and feels Superman upstages him at every corner(perhaps show him flipping through the latest issue of the Daily Planet where Superman is pages 1-5 while Luthor's page 10 lol). Luthor flips out and decides to concot his plan to take own the Man of Steel by first framing him for a crime he didn't commit, preferably murder(ala Public Enemies) and of course Superman goes on the run trying to prove his innocence as seen in the comic/animated movie, Lois could help here if she wants. Since no known police can actually take someone like Superman in, Lex uses his connections to a friend in Gotham City(Jim Gordon) who in turn calls in the people's superhero Batman, who supposedly handles an assortment of freaks like this on a daily basis.

The movie becomes pretty much a cat and mouse game between Superman & Batman culminating in a fight in Gotham's Crime Alley ala TDKReturns. So Batman then uses an assortment of different gadgets and traps to stall Superman and then of course releases the Kryptonite(Here Batman would just call it "radioactive meteor rock which simulates your home turf". Batman, being smart could make some analogy to how we are different in other planets like how when Astronauts go to the moon they become weightless etc and reasoned that materials from your home world must soften you up or something). Then Batman grabs and throws Superman through an adjacent nearby building and then a section of it collapses and is about to fall on a mother, father and an 8 year old boy. Superman sees this and with a final burst of his heat vision destroys it into debris ala Superman Returns. Batman looks on and is stunned and horrified about what he nearly did and realises that Superman is not the bad guy. Then the sun comes up and shines on Superman.(Think of it as a form of symbolism, that the night had its fun and now is the light's turn to
take over). Superman uses a burst of speed and swoops down on Batman.(On a side note, the Kryptonite ran out and is out of Superman's system).

*Superman grabs Batman by the throat*

Superman: "Did you realise what you just nearly did?!"
Batman(gasps):"I needed to neutralize you. You scare people, you think you are high and mighty and above the law taking lives as you please, you are no God!"
Superman:"You're one to talk with what you nearly did there!"
Superman:"I want you to remember...Bruce Wayne"
*Batman's eyes widen in horror that Superman knew who he was this whole time*
Superman: "I want you to remember this symbol Bruce, it means hope. My father sent me here for a reason: to be a symbol of hope for tommorow and every day after that in all the years to come. I'm not here to rule over you or act as judge, jury, executioner. I know that now, from first hand, I want you to remember Bruce, I will never kneel before evil."
Superman: "My purpose in life is to protect life and fight for Truth, Justice and the Right Way. If lives are in danger, I want you to remember that I will always inspire hope."
Batman: "I know that now."
*Superman releases Batman*
Superman: "Fight's over"
Batman: "Luthor..."
Superman:"What?"
Batman:"It's Luthor, he did it"

Yup. Ive written a similar scenario in other threads.

Perhaps an apt name for this kind of movie would be The Man of Steel Returns

 

[Rodrigo90]

Why Batman should be traumatized he's not a little *****.

You do realise he's already a traumatized man? Within trauma, you get tortured

And in TDKReturns, Bruce more or less retired because of what happened to, Jason Todd. It's referenced all throughout. Something traumatized him badly and with that, he disbanded the Bat Family and went into retirement for a few years. And in those years, he was mentally tortured and hounded by his repressed Batman persona.

I can see Ben nailing that potential aspect, after watching Hollywoodland.

Batman could be long gone during MOS' s events. And once he returns, he makes enemies out of the Government, that demand Superman to bring him down. And Superman, having no real knowledge whether Batman is a hero or a villain, does as they say, trying to get in their good books. Unknowingly becoming their lapdog for a while.

And I think someone corrupt within the Government should be the villain orchestrating the plot. If that was the case, of course.

 

[CharlieS]

You do realise he's already a traumatized man? Within trauma, you get tortured

And in TDKReturns, Bruce more or less retired because of what happened to, Jason Todd. It's referenced all throughout. Something traumatized him badly and with that, he disbanded the Bat Family and went into retirement for a few years. And in those years, he was mentally tortured and hounded by his repressed Batman persona.

I can see Ben nailing that potential aspect, after watching Hollywoodland.

Batman could be long gone during MOS' s events. And once he returns, he makes enemies out of the Government, that demand Superman to bring him down. And Superman, having no real knowledge whether Batman is a hero or a villain, does as they say, trying to get in their good books. Unknowingly becoming their lapdog for a while.

And I think someone corrupt within the Government should be the villain orchestrating the plot. If that was the case, of course.

Batman doesn't kill he has surpassed his desire for vengeance . Batman he's not traumatized. Superman is not dumb he wouldn't never attack Batman in that way.

 

[Rodrigo90]

The traumatic events of his parents murder led him to becoming, Batman. He's never gotten over it and it preys on him almost, if not, every day. That to me, is trauma.
He may not display it very much in the comics nowadays. But his actions aren't those of a healthy minded individual. They are the actions of a man traumatized by crime.

And why wouldn't Superman want to bring down Batman if his Government demanded it and is convinced Batman is now an enemy, like in TDKReturns? Why would he say "no", straight away?

 

[Rodrigo90]

Delete

 

[CharlieS]

The traumatic events of his parents murder led him to becoming, Batman. He's never gotten over it and it preys on him almost, if not, every day. That to me, is trauma.
He may not display it very much in the comics nowadays. But his actions aren't those of a healthy minded individual. They are the actions of a man traumatized by crime.

And why wouldn't Superman want to bring down Batman if his Government demanded it and is convinced Batman is now an enemy, like in TDKReturns? Why would he say "no", straight away?

Superman attacked Batman in TDKReturns because Lex Luthor kept the Kryptonian city of Kendor. Lex put Superman under pressure. And again Batman is not crazy maybe he's tormented but he's not crazy.