The Dark Knight What was the WEAKEST portrayal of a comic character in TDK

[El Payaso]

-Scarecrow was 1000x worse in TDK, than in BB.

That reminds me of the Annie Hall's joke: God, the food here is so bad. Yeah and such little portions!

I'd say he was the exact same super-lame villiain all the time. Sure he was bad in TDK, he was still the same bad developed character. But at least he was there for a few minutes and didn't pretend to be a worthy villiain throughout the whole movie just to be beaten by a girl, sending us the message, why all the effort to become Batman when you can buy a taser?.

-I didn't like Batman in TDK that much, and thought he was better in BB.

In some parts, but Batman had great scenbes such as the interrogartion room and him interrogating Maroni. I've always felt Bale's Batman correctly done but something's missing.

The voice was worse.

-I really liked Dent and Two-Face.
-Wasn't a fan of The Joker. Heath did a good job of playing a nasty villain, but it didn't completely feel like a good Joker to me. Some parts were great, others were just, mehhhhh.

I liked Dent/Two-Face more than Joker, as good as he was.

But hey, tell us about Joker's meh parts.

So I guess I'll say The Joker, because of how much time he was on screen, and how disappointed I was by the performance.

What about the screentime?

But I also thought Scarecrow was HORRIBLE in TDK. He was good in BB, sure, he wasn't perfect, but a stupid drug dealer who gets caught in seconds is pretty much a useless character. So both were pretty bad, IMO.

He was horrible in BB too. And not only that, the fear gas' hallucination weren't too terrible and were quite inconsistent throughout the movie. Not more than a bad light LSD trip.

Well, to me, this line/theme felt completely and utterly spoonfed. Lucius had no problem giving Bruce The Tumbler and new suits to illegally fight crime, but also had no hesitation to invade Chinese airspace, and illegally extradite a Chinese citizen back to Gotham, but the sonar equipment was "too much". Yeah, talk about "too much power".

It seems like Fox had issues with people's privacy but he was okay with Bruce crushing cops in BB.

But speaking of "talking to me like a 5 year old", the themes of "fear" were pretty much spoonfed in BB, as well. So both movies have their faults, IMO.

The fear factor was terrible. But then again many dialogues vere horrible in BB.

 

[EliteF50]

Overall, I think BB is much better than TDK. I wish Nolan had kept the same vibe from BB at least.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Yeah, I hate the last line in the movie. I thought it was a bit too pretentious. But I love Gordon in these movies. His worst line throughout the series was at the end of TDK, so I won't give him too much flak for it, cause he's one of the best things in the series.

That didn't really have anything to do with Oldman's Gordon though, he nailed that. It's just a shame Nolan can't make a Batman movie without telling.you.everthing.every.character.is.thinking.every.six.seconds.

 

[The Morningstar]

That didn't really have anything to do with Oldman's Gordon though, he nailed that. It's just a shame Nolan can't make a Batman movie without telling.you.everthing.every.character.is.thinking.every.six.seconds.

lol.

Yea i mean, if people enjoy the film, more power to them. But don't try and pretend it's really subtle and intelligent and it doesn't treat the audience like fools.

Because it is not subtle. It is not really intelligent. And yes it does treat the audience like fools.

 

[The Joker]

Because it is not subtle. It is not really intelligent. And yes it does treat the audience like fools.

But that's just your opinion. Not a fact. Movies that treat the audience like fools don't get:

- A 94% rating on RT: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_dark_knight/
- Make over a billion dollars: http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=darkknight.htm
- Get voted the 15th greatest movie of all time in Empire Magazine by 10'000 of their readers, 150 of Hollywood's finest, and 50 key film critics: http://www.empireonline.com/500/

 

[EliteF50]

Such an overrated movie...

EDIT: Obviously in my opinion.

 

[Travesty]

That reminds me of the Annie Hall's joke: God, the food here is so bad. Yeah and such little portions!

I'd say he was the exact same super-lame villiain all the time. Sure he was bad in TDK, he was still the same bad developed character. But at least he was there for a few minutes and didn't pretend to be a worthy villiain throughout the whole movie just to be beaten by a girl, sending us the message, why all the effort to become Batman when you can buy a taser?.

Well, in all fairness, she never "defeated him", as he was still on the loose in TDK. But I agree with you somewhat.....

In some parts, but Batman had great scenbes such as the interrogartion room and him interrogating Maroni. I've always felt Bale's Batman correctly done but something's missing.

The voice was worse.

Yeah, the voice was MUCH worse, but it wasn't just that. Yes, like you said, I LOVED the Joker/Batman interrogation scene, and I thought it was great, but other than that, I think the overall performance was lacking. And not only in Batman, but his Bruce persona as well.

I liked Dent/Two-Face more than Joker, as good as he was.

But hey, tell us about Joker's meh parts.

Well, my "meh parts" have to do with the character, not necessarily what we saw on screen. See, I like my Joker to have more gag-weapons, and be more hysterical than what we saw in TDK. He didn't have many gags, and all of his ultimatums/death-traps didn't feel "Joker like" to me. Like I said before, I liked Heath's performance, but it just didn't feel like The Joker to me.

And I'm not trying to put it down, it just wasn't even close to being my favorite.....oh, and the permawhite, but that's nit-picking, so I won't really count that.

What about the screentime?

Well, it's just that: the screen time. Joker had much more screen time in TDK, so there is more to pick out my dislikes. If The Scarecrow was on more, maybe he would have been better, maybe he would have been worse, who knows, but he was barely on as it was. So basically, I wasn't impressed with The Scarecrow in TDK, as apposed to BB(which again, wasn't perfect), due to screen time. If he was on more, I could pick out more things, in other words......

He was horrible in BB too. And not only that, the fear gas' hallucination weren't too terrible and were quite inconsistent throughout the movie. Not more than a bad light LSD trip.

I thought he was alright in BB, and I somewhat agree with you. But hey, this is about TDK, so I was just making my opinion on that movie alone.

It seems like Fox had issues with people's privacy but he was okay with Bruce crushing cops in BB.

I know, which kinda expands on my original point with Lucius.

The fear factor was terrible. But then again many dialogues vere horrible in BB.

I can agree with that. TDK script was definitely better as far as dialogue goes, but that doesn't mean it's exempt from the many inconsistencies, plot-holes, and thematical errors, which is my overall point.

 

[Fudgie]

The title of the thread is what was the weakest portrayal. We are criticizing the characters.

You're repeating the same stuff you were saying in the other thread. And the same people saying it as well. Its funny. Its just a criticism clone thread.

- Get voted the 15th greatest movie of all time in Empire Magazine by 10'000 of their readers, 150 of Hollywood's finest, and 50 key film critics: http://www.empireonline.com/500/

Class. I'm book marking that.

Such an overrated movie...

EDIT: Obviously in my opinion.

Correction; minority opinion.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

But that's just your opinion. Not a fact. Movies that treat the audience like fools don't get:

- A 94% rating on RT: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_dark_knight/
- Make over a billion dollars: http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=darkknight.htm
- Get voted the 15th greatest movie of all time in Empire Magazine by 10'000 of their readers, 150 of Hollywood's finest, and 50 key film critics: http://www.empireonline.com/500/

That's not true. Forrest Gump and Titanic were fairly ham-fisted, then you have all the Pixar and Disney movies that are anything but subtle. Also Avatar, which is arguably the most successful movie of all time, very critically well received, is just a cheap knock off of Pochantas, and is probably the most preachy thing I've watched in ages.

If I went through my top five movies, and I think I could make good, objective cases for their quality, for example Se7en, very few of them would be financial successes, and only maybe one or two are oscar winners.

Nolan uses a lot of exposition, and he does repeat his themes ad naseum. Ultimately I think if you make something that is truly quality, it's going to be a lot more polarizing than anything else. I think Watchmen (the Final cut), and Blade Runner are examples of great, and I use the word 'great' sparingly here, "nerd movies", and because they're so great I really feel they are inaccessible to 99.9% (I'm being hyperbolic) of the audience.

Exposition is a lazy writing tool, but it's also a great way for "da'masses" to be able to watch your film.

You also can't just post "it got 94% on rottentomatoes". That's the precent of critics who gave it a positive (above 50 or 60% depending on how they rate films) review. It's an 8.4/10, which I feel is pretty fair. We're also talking about a very specific aspect of the film. You can have poor dialogue in a "good" film, just like I think everyone would admit Michael Jai White can't act his way out of a piece of tissue paper, and he's in The Dark Knight as well.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I feel like people are too hard on Scarecrow. He never 'worked' for me as a villain to begin with, as his role seemed to be better filled by other characters. 'Fear Toxins', the scarecrow costume, the obsession with 'fear' kind of seems cliche' for a villain. So when Batman Begins used him as a secondary villain, and The Dark Knight used him as a guy for Batman to beat up, I was quite happy with that. I also liked how he was a bit of a joke since I'm unconvinced all of Batman's villains need to be serious threats. The fact that Cillian Murphy made him into basically a sick, twisted, demented doctor worked for me. The only minor gripe I have was the costume. I never got why he would wear a suit, just not very creative.

 

[DieSmiling]

lol.

Yea i mean, if people enjoy the film, more power to them. But don't try and pretend it's really subtle and intelligent and it doesn't treat the audience like fools.

Because it is not subtle. It is not really intelligent. And yes it does treat the audience like fools.

It's not subtle but it's certainly not stupid. It's about as thoughtful as summer blockbusters get.

 

[The Joker]

That's not true. Forrest Gump and Titanic were fairly ham-fisted, then you have all the Pixar and Disney movies that are anything but subtle.

Also Avatar, which is arguably the most successful movie of all time, very critically well received, is just a cheap knock off of Pochantas, and is probably the most preachy thing I've watched in ages.

But again, that is your opinion on these movies. Your view. Movies being more vocal about their themes is not a bad thing. Otherwise Forrest Gump and the like would be on the poor list for most people. It's how it's handled that really determines the quality. Even that is entirely subjective.

Given that TDK pretty much has success in all corners, not to mention extreme popularity, and not just with the comic book fan base, I don't think it's unfair to say the general audience never ever had any kind of real problem with how TDK presented it's themes or story.

You also can't just post "it got 94% on rottentomatoes". That's the precent of critics who gave it a positive (above 50 or 60% depending on how they rate films) review.

No, it doesn't. It includes the rotten reviews, which according to RT was 18, in comparison to the 260 positive. That's how they work out their percentage. They add them all up and make a percentage from the positive out of the total which includes the bad reviews.

We're also talking about a very specific aspect of the film. You can have poor dialogue in a "good" film, just like I think everyone would admit Michael Jai White can't act his way out of a piece of tissue paper, and he's in The Dark Knight as well.

I will never understand why you keep bringing him up. He had like two scenes, and he had one brief line of dialogue in the second scene. You act as though he was a massive presence in the movie or something.

Now I'll leave you guys to resume your bashing fest

 

[Travesty]

Now I'll leave you guys to resume your bashing fest

Oh, come on now, Joker. I've had debates with you in the BB-threads where you were brutal against BB. I could have said the EXACT same thing with you in there. Don't act like you're "above" this kinda stuff....

 

[The Joker]

Oh, come on now, Joker. I've had debates with you in the BB where you were brutal against BB. I could have said the EXACT same thing with you in there. Don't act like you're "above" this kinda stuff....

Sorry Trav, I wasn't trying to act like that. It was meant to be a light hearted remark, hence the winking smiley. You know me, I am usually ALWAYS involved in these discussions somewhere. I couldn't get away with acting like these debates were beneath me even if I wanted to. Too much evidence against me

Apologies for coming across that way. I'm just not going into it all again with Optimus because I think we pretty much exhausted that in the criticisms thread.

 

[Travesty]

Sorry Trav, I wasn't trying to act like that. It was meant to be a light hearted remark, hence the winking smiley. You know me, I am usually ALWAYS involved in these discussions somewhere. I couldn't get away with acting like these debates were beneath me even if I wanted to. Too much evidence against me

Apologies for coming across that way. I'm just not going into it all again with Optimus because I think we pretty much exhausted that in the criticisms thread.

Ha, it's all good. I was just sayin...

You know how much I respect you.

 

[truth]

This thread I think is VERY healthy.

I've heard of guys who posted well thought-out criticisms of Tdk and on Batman on Film and were BANNED. It's important that FANS of Batman and FANS of Nolan come out and give legit reasons for why Tdk and its characters are not that good and supporters of the film should listen and stop bringing reasons like money (the star wars prequels have each made an excess of 500 millions dollars each) as justification of the movie being amazing.

I am a big fan of Nolan's films and Prestige is one of the best movies I've seen in a cinema. But I feel that Nolan dropped the ball on Tdk. What I expected he would bring to the film, he just didn't. Not too sure why. But the whole pretentious and preachiness is just not evident in his other movies. It IS treating us like two-year olds. That speech at the end by Batman with the music? I mean, come on.
As someone said already....you are telling us every single theme and meaning that the film pertains to. No room to think for yourself, no subtlety or ambiguity.

But back to Batman. Forget the voice or Bale sleepwalking through the movie. The writing for Batman was just really off. He felt like a statesman who just kept on talking, and talking....and talking....and talking. That end scene "YOU WERE THE BEST OF US..." I was like, man, this guy is talking a lot. And it does feel like a play, but don't mean to be rude, like a sixth grade play. Don't mean no offence, because I'm sure the Nolans took the screenplay seriously but they just missed the mark. I can't believe the same people who wrote the Prestige wrote Tdk.

 

[Boom]

The Scarecrow. Easily.

 

[Fudgie]

I've heard of guys who posted well thought-out criticisms of Tdk and on Batman on Film and were BANNED. It's important that FANS of Batman and FANS of Nolan come out and give legit reasons for why Tdk and its characters are not that good and supporters of the film should listen

Is truth trying to do the opinion as fact thing again hahahaha?

 

[The Morningstar]

But that's just your opinion. Not a fact. Movies that treat the audience like fools don't get:

- A 94% rating on RT: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_dark_knight/
- Make over a billion dollars: http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=darkknight.htm
- Get voted the 15th greatest movie of all time in Empire Magazine by 10'000 of their readers, 150 of Hollywood's finest, and 50 key film critics: http://www.empireonline.com/500/

All of that is completely irrelevent to me.

TDK does treat it's audience like fools. Then entire ending monolgue by Gordon spoon feeds the audience the themes of the movie. How is this deniable?

Lucius saying "This is wrong!" when Batman reveals his sonar thing... is spoon feeding. How is this deniable?

I don't need Gordon to start spouting some heavy handed exposition dialogue that explains the entire movie. Which is also terribly edited, one minute he's speaking to his kid, the next, a memorial for Harvey Dent? Not to mention the fact that Gordon spouting this stuff out to a what, a 8 year old child is the most ridiculous thing ever. It's just so utterly contrived and forced. "OH HEY WE NEED TO REINFORCE THAT BATMAN IS DARK AND HE'S A KNIGHT! EVEN THOUGH WE'VE SPENT 2 AND A HALF HOURS SPOON FEEDING THIS THEME ANYWAY!" Seriously...

I certainly don't need Lucius Fox telling me that Batman infringing on peoples privacy is wrong. I'm not a ******. It'd have been better to let the viewer decide what's wrong and right there, anyway. Instead of having a character say "no it's wrong!!!"

These are just two examples of TDKs blatant spoon feeding. The movie is about as subtle as a sledgehammer to the knee caps. Characters don't show their feelings, they talk about them. This film is guilty of breaking the "show, don't tell" rule of film making on various occasions.

Whatever critics think of it now, i believe in a few years time, maybe 10, maybe 20, people will realize that this movie is not that great once the rose tinted glasses have been removed.

You're repeating the same stuff you were saying in the other thread. And the same people saying it as well. Its funny. Its just a criticism clone thread.

And? I think there is a lot to criticize in this movie.

Correction; minority opinion.

Why was this correction necessary? You're a raging TDK fanboy who seems to be either insecure about people criticizing his favourite movie, or you just like being smug, we get it.

Is truth trying to do the opinion as fact thing again hahahaha?

Pot, meet kettle.

 

[Boom]

I'd have to agree. Nolan's films have a tendency to over-explain and suffer from heavy exposition and speechy dialogue.

That's one aspect of his filmmaking that I think Nolan could stand to improve upon.

 

[The Joker]

Ha, it's all good. I was just sayin...

You know how much I respect you.

Back at you

All of that is completely irrelevent to me.

Why because those massive statistics don't support your opinion?

TDK does treat it's audience like fools. Then entire ending monolgue by Gordon spoon feeds the audience the themes of the movie. How is this deniable?

That is not treating the audience like fools. Comic book movies are often very vocal about their themes. Especially for the younger ones in the audience.

For example Aunt May spelling out the theme of Spider-Man 2 with her hero and responsibility speech to Peter in the backyard scene, which he repeats to Doc Ock in the finale, too. Or the Uncle Ben speech to Peter in the heaven car sequence etc.

Spider-Man 2 is practically in the same boat as TDK, with a massive box office, widely revered among the fan base, and a healthy 93% rating from the critics: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/spiderman_2/

Whatever critics think of it now, i believe in a few years time, maybe 10, maybe 20, people will realize that this movie is not that great once the rose tinted glasses have been removed.

Tell you what, meet me back here in 10 years time, and we'll see if your prediction comes true

 

[truth]

I think one of the weakest statements to support a movie being good is its box-office.
Are you guys really going to tell me the Transformers films or the Star Wars Prequels are good films?

 

[The Morningstar]

Why because those massive statistics don't support your opinion?

No, because 1. bad movies make bucket loads of money all the time and 2. i believe people view TDK with rose tinted glasses and i don't trust critics reviews of major studio blockbusters. Also, i'm pretty confident that if all those critics reviewed TDK again right now, it wouldn't be nowhere near as well received.

That is not treating the audience like fools. Comic book movies are often very vocal about their themes. Especially for the younger ones in the audience.

Yes but TDK elevates the comic book genre right? It takes it more seriously and treats it as more of an adults film righ...?

For example Aunt May spelling out the theme of Spider-Man 2 with her hero and responsibility speech to Peter in the backyard scene, which he repeats to Doc Ock in the finale, too. Or the Uncle Ben speech to Peter in the heaven car sequence etc.

And that was contrived and forced too. Difference was, Aunt May wasn't saying all that to an 8 year old who wouldn't understand a word she was saying...

Gordon ceased to be a character in the movie during that monologue. It was like he was breaking the fourth wall or something. He wasn't talking to any other characters, that was an illusion. He was talking to us, the audience. As though we were idiots who didn't understand what happened in the previous 2 and a half hours.

Spider-Man 2 is practically in the same boat as TDK, with a massive box office, widely revered among the fan base, and a healthy 93% rating from the critics: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/spiderman_2/

Whilst i prefer Spider-Man 2 to TDK, i still think it has too much spoon feeding, amongst other flaws. But Spider-Man 2 doesn't have the pretense of being some serious, genre redefining, thriller.

Tell you what, meet me back here in 10 years time, and we'll see if your prediction comes true

You're on!

 

[The Joker]

I think one of the weakest statements to support a movie being good is its box-office.
Are you guys really going to tell me the Transformers films or the Star Wars Prequels are good films?

http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=20106257&postcount=30

Do you see me only using box office numbers here?

 

[truth]

Is truth trying to do the opinion as fact thing again hahahaha?

Where in the post that you quoted from did i imply "opinion as fact."

Just relax, take a breather, Tdk is not that good. Sorry to break it to you.