BvS What Went Wrong w/ Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice (SPOILERS) - Part 1

[OutOfBoose]

This film mase me appreciate the Avengers even more. Snyder and his writers couldn't make three superheroes feel organic to the film. Whedon did it with six. Sure, you could say there were solo films to help him, but Whedon took the harder road and reintroduced everyone in the first act. He made it so you would perfectly understand everything going on even if you never watched a Marvel film before.

Marvel movies are way less ambitious in terms of storytelling. And it benefits them. Character arcs are extremely simple and more often than not resemble plot devices. Near zero social commentary and philosophy. Most of their characters are not nearly as big and demanding as Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. Expectations are way lower. People just watch these movies and takes them for what they are.

This absolutely doesn't mean that BvS is better or worse than Avengers. It's different. Different tasks, different rules, different goals, different methods.

But as soon as they tried to enter more complex territory, we got Age of Ultron.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

The solo movies were there to help him. Imagine if Whedon had to not only integrate the heroes but introduce them as well AND set up an multiple storylines.

Do you know the box office disparity between the Avengers and the rest of the solo films? Plenty of people who've never seen an MCU film watched the Avengers. And Whedon made sure they were not lost.

 

[bluearth]

Well, quite. AoU is bloated MESS.

Edited my post to make my point clear, yes I agree with you, Whedon had a similar task in AoU that Snyder had in BvS, both struggled.

BvS is easily better then AoU IMO

 

[spider-neil]

Do you know the box office disparity between the Avengers and the rest of the solo films? Plenty of people who've never seen an MCU film watched the Avengers. And Whedon made sure they were not lost.

He was still helped by the solo movies. Also, when he was given multiple storylines to develop with no solo movie crutch (for Thor) you ended up the nonsensical Thor taking a bath scene. Could the general audience follow what was happening there? I couldn't and I read the comics.

 

[AnneFan]

Edited my post to make my point clear, yes I agree with you, Whedon had a similar task in AoU that Snyder had in BvS, both struggled.

BvS is easily better then AoU IMO

BvS's tone is much more to my liking, as well.

 

[baerrtt]

Unfortunately plenty of people criticize Cap for being too idealistic, even Captain America fans. I constantly see people say Cap should kill more often and carry a gun because he's a soldier (not sure how many comics they've read, they get mad that for decades Cap never used a gun in the war or that the Hulk never killed anyone in a rampage.) Tons of people who saw Winter Soldier said the Bucky thing was too corny that he tried to save him.

Some people are just idiotic and don't get superheroes.

I sadly believe you in that there seems to be an influx of bloodthirsty fans who like these characters purely for the power fantasy aspects and not the morality (like Snyder for instance).

The comparisons people make between the depictions of Steve Rogers and, currently, Superman exist because all the Cap/Avengers MCU movies to date have been better received OVERALL than MOS/BVS. Snyder's attempts to 'grow up' the character hasn't been widely embraced simple as and if anyone brings up the current box office for BVS to counter my opinion ask yourselves if a Superman sequel following MOS with no Batman as the guest star (or headliner as we have with this film) with the same kind of colourless and joyless characterisation would be doing this kind of business.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

He was still helped by the solo movies. Also, when he was given multiple storylines to develop with no solo movie crutch (for Thor) you ended up the nonsensical Thor taking a bath scene. Could the general audience follow what was happening there? I couldn't and I read the comics.

What does AOU have anything to do with what I'm talking about?

And no. He wasn't helped. Solo films mean nothing if you've never seen em.

 

[spider-neil]

BvS's tone is much more to my liking, as well.

Agreed.
This probably for another thread but no one takes anything seriously in the MCU (big screen). Ultron was turned into an absolute JOKE. I want to annihilate all of humanity and I will quip my way to achieving that goal. Ugh...UGH!!

The destruction in MoS was trivialised because of the sheer scope of it but at the start of BvS you see it from Bruce's point of view and (imho) nothing in both Avengers movies comes close to showing that level of sheer terror.

What Marvel are doing on the small screen (Daredevil/JJ) is about a million times better than what they are doing on the big screen.

 

[STARMAN]

You can provide more levity without telling a single joke.

 

[bluearth]

What does AOU have anything to do with what I'm talking about?

And no. He wasn't helped. Solo films mean nothing if you've never seen em.

I didnt see the solo Thor film before Avengers and all I knew from the first part of Avengers was that Loki was his brother and Natalie Portman's character was important to Thor for some reason. Thats it

Most importantly, I felt Whedon gave all the characters a fair share of things to do throughout the film, and thats where he excelled, not bringing everyone up to speed on the backstory. In BvS Wonder Woman basically just walks around and looks pretty until the last 10 minutes.

 

[Predator jp]

Putting aside the basic filmmaking issues such as editing, If they handled Superman better the whole movie would have been better for it.

i agree. so much better.

 

[Plaidchuck]

OT but are they going to crossover the netflix shows? Adding luke cage now is making things a bit bloated imo.

DD season 2 imo stalled out when they introduced Elektra. Never liked her though even in the comics.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I didnt see the solo Thor film before Avengers and all I knew from the first part of Avengers was that Loki was his brother and Natalie Portman's character was important to Thor for some reason. Thats it

Most importantly, I felt Whedon gave all the characters a fair share of things to do throughout the film, and thats where he excelled, not bringing everyone up to speed on the backstory. In BvS Wonder Woman basically just walks around and looks pretty until the last 10 minutes.

Your sentiment is echoed by a lot of people I've talked to in real life.

Most of them only saw Iron Man. No other solo flick.

And Whedon smartly distilled Thor and Loki's back story in the dialogue scene in the mountains.

And boy. Sharp, crisp dialogue it was.

 

[spider-neil]

i agree. so much better.

They had opportunities to expand the character of Superman (the courtroom) and passed. I'm hope that the majority of scenes inserted into the Ultimate cut belong to Superman. Batman was serviced more than enough, Superman was underdeveloped.

 

[Poni_Boy]

Your sentiment is echoed by a lot of people I've talked to in real life.

Most of them only saw Iron Man. No other solo flick.

Same here. Aside from one friend and my girlfriend at the time no one I knew saw the other solos leading up the Avengers. I doubt many even watched them after. You didn't need the solos to watch, understand and enjoy Avenegers. Same can be said for TDK and Batman Begins. That's the point. No one wants homework before going to the movies.

 

[OutOfBoose]

BvS's tone is much more to my liking, as well.

+1. I have no problem watching darker tone films. I enjoy them a lot.

 

[bapi]

So rukaio101 is finally done with his epic review / story analysis:


PART 1

PART 2

PART 3

PART 4

PART 5

 

[bluearth]

+1. I have no problem watching darker tone films. I enjoy them a lot.

Only problem is, when you dont get them quite right, and you dont have comedy to fall back on the critics can be quite harsh *cough cough*

Trying to make a serious, adult super hero film is like being an ugly girl thats not very pleasing to look at. You better have a hell of a personality because if not nobody is going to tolerate you if you have a bad one. Its easier for the masses to be more forgiving of a 'good looking' girl with a bad personality then an 'ugly girl' with a bad personality.

Thats why a flawed but decent film like BvS got hammered by the critics.

 

[DA_Champion]

So rukaio101 is finally done with his epic review / story analysis:


PART 1

PART 2

PART 3

PART 4

PART 5

Who is rukaio and why should we care?

 

[OutOfBoose]

So rukaio101 is finally done with his epic review / story analysis:


PART 1

PART 2

PART 3

PART 4

PART 5

5 text walls of hate? No thanks. The guy said it in the beginning. He hated Man of Steel with passion.

 

[bapi]

5 text walls of hate? No thanks. The guy said it in the beginning. He hated Man of Steel with passion.

Well, it's a good story analysis.

 

[The Batman]

Do you know the box office disparity between the Avengers and the rest of the solo films? Plenty of people who've never seen an MCU film watched the Avengers. And Whedon made sure they were not lost.

Same here. Aside from one friend and my girlfriend at the time no one I knew saw the other solos leading up the Avengers. I doubt many even watched them after. You didn't need the solos to watch, understand and enjoy Avenegers. Same can be said for TDK and Batman Begins. That's the point. No one wants homework before going to the movies.

Yup. That's what the "DC should do it like Marvel" fanboys don't understand. You don't need to do 6 solo movies before jumping into a team film. If you're a good storyteller, you can effectively establish characters in minutes.

You don't even get a peek at Indiana Jones' backstory until his third film. That didn't stop Indy from becoming popular with "Raiders of the Lost Ark".

 

[wampa1]

Snyder was mystified when someone told him that they couldn’t think of a movie in recent memory that’s had as much collateral damage as “Man of Steel.” “I went, really? And I said, well, what about ['Star Wars: The Force Awakens']?” the director says. “In ‘Star Wars’ they destroy five planets with billions of people on them. That’s gotta be one of the highest death toll movies in history, the new ‘Star Wars’ movie, if you just do the math.”

Zack Snyder doesn't know what collateral damage is : /

 

[OutOfBoose]

Only problem is, when you dont get them quite right, and you dont have comedy to fall back on the critics can be quite harsh *cough cough*

Trying to make a serious, adult super hero film is like being an ugly girl thats not very pleasing to look at. You better have a hell of a personality because if not nobody is going to tolerate you if you have a bad one. Its easier for the masses to be more forgiving of a 'good looking' girl with a bad personality then an 'ugly girl' with a bad personality.

Thats why a flawed but decent film like BvS got hammered by the critics.

Fair enough. Also serious and dark tone implies the film takes itself seriously. So nitpicking and criticism is way harsher than towards a movie, which is ironic and fun. BvS for me is TDKR II. Great and fun to watch, but seriously flawed. Only TDKR got a pass (Nolan, TDK, Inception), but BvS didn't.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Well, it's a good story analysis.

I prefer analysis without emotions. Negative or positive.

UPD. Just threw a brief glance on his text, the first thing I saw:

Anyway, as you've probably seen in the trailer, Bruce runs into the dust of the collapsing Wayne Enterprises building and dazed makes his way through the dust. Then, for some reason, a horse wanders by. Which genuinely kinda threw me to be honest. What the hell was that horse doing there? Were there horses randomly wandering through the rubble of 9/11?

I can already smell fantastic analysis... Christ.