BvS What Went Wrong w/ Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice (SPOILERS) - Part 1

[matt47]

I think they could've cut out all of Batman's dreams. What purpose did they serve in the movie other than to confuse people and have some indulgent scenes? Having them so often when the plot of the movie is not about Batman having some recurrent nightmares just means that the film is more disjointed with lots of stops and starts.

Also, I wanted to see more of WW fighting. During that final battle, they had to keep cutting to Lois fetching that spear instead of lingering longer on the Amazon warrior beauty taking on the vile beast from hell.

oh man that was jarring. I still think they should have had Batman going for the spear instead. That way he does more than the grappling part and shooting the grenade.

 

[Dark Raven]

he will be full Superman in JL2. you can't expect him to be one in JL1. he just got back from the dead, he needs some time.

No, I expect him to be full on Superman in JL1. If he has learned anything, it should be that life is short and you've got to make the most of it and stop brooding or wondering about your place in the world and trying to figure out who you are, and just get on with being the hero he should be.

So I expect that if he comes back from the dead, he'll adopt a new attitude and not still do more of the same, learning so slowly etc. Just be a hero and more of a people person who interacts with the public and wins them over, and not being some distant, remote alien who seems far removed and transcendent from everyone else.

 

[jmc]

It's largely because it's not scared to embrace its comic book roots. Okay, that can come with a fair slice of cheese along for the ride, but Supergirl, like The Flash wears its history and background with pride.

That's why BvS is bad. There's no pride in these characters. No sense of a celebration of what they are. Just an never-ending ham-fisted attempt to deconstruct, and strip them of all their pulp heroism.

The DC TV universe succeeds in the same way the MCU does... and in the same way that Nolan's movies did. Pride and respect for the source material, that while never perfect, translates into an entertaining show/film, and seeks to do justice to the comics, by representing the characters as accurately as possible within the confines of live action.

You are right. It's unashamedly a superhero show and it's proud of who its characters are. The show's producers love Kara and they want to show her in the best possible light. I'm more and more convinced Snyder really doesn't like superheroes subconsciously.

 

[Dark Raven]

oh man that was jarring. I still think they should have had Batman going for the spear instead. That way he does more than the grappling part and shooting the grenade.

Yeah, Batman should've been the one to do that. He should've shown off some of his tactician abilities and should be trying to find another way to defeat Doomsday while Superman and WW were fighting him with brute strength. At times Batman was just sitting there like a passive observer while the other two showed off their power, because obviously Batman couldn't compete on that same level. But a classic Batman would've disappeared from the battle and would've gone off to find another way to beat the enemy (in this case, going after the spear himself instead of letting Lois do that).

Letting Lois go after the spear is like a man asking a woman with a baby and bags of shopping to hold the door open for him. What was he thinking?

 

[matt47]

Yeah, Batman should've been the one to do that. He should've shown off some of his tactician abilities and should be trying to find another way to defeat Doomsday while Superman and WW were fighting him with brute strength. At times Batman was just sitting there like a passive observer while the other two showed off their power, because obviously Batman couldn't compete on that same level. But a classic Batman would've disappeared from the battle and would've gone off to find another way to beat the enemy (in this case, going after the spear himself instead of letting Lois do that).

Letting Lois go after the spear is like a man asking a woman with a baby and bags of shopping to hold the door open for him. What was he thinking?

That's the thing though. No one knew Lois was getting the spear!

 

[FunkMiller]

You are right. It's unashamedly a superhero show and it's proud of who its characters are. The show's producers love Kara and they want to show her in the best possible light. I'm more and more convinced Snyder really doesn't like superheroes subconsciously.

I don't even think its subconscious. Not when it comes to Superman, certainly. If Snyder follows Ayn Rand's objectivism philosophy then he must despise the notion of a god-like creature being anything other than something to be questioned and/or feared.

Objectivism is all about celebrating the rational human mind, and rejecting any notion of benign deistic or supernatural influence over the world.

Superman is a thing to be sneered at in Snyder's mind-set, not celebrated.

As an atheist, I tend to see some sense in Rand's philosophy, though it is constructed with a self-aggrandising moral superiority that makes my teeth itch.

However, it's a world view that should never, ever be applied to a superhero narrative, because the intellectual bias against the whole notion of the superhero as force for good is extremely heavy.

 

[Dark Raven]

That's the thing though. No one knew Lois was getting the spear!

But Batman should've been going after it anyway, regardless of whether he knew Lois was getting it or not. He already decided he wanted to go and get it before Doomsday wrecked his plane and he crash landed. Why was Batman sitting idly by in the battle when WW and Superman were fighting? It should automatically have dawned on him that now is the time to retrieve that spear and help out. Then maybe he might've encountered Lois who would've told him that it's down at the bottom of that pool.

 

[matt47]

But Batman should've been going after it anyway, regardless of whether he knew Lois was getting it or not. He already decided he wanted to go and get it before Doomsday wrecked his plane and he crash landed. Why was Batman sitting idly by in the battle when WW and Superman were fighting? It should automatically have dawned on him that now is the time to retrieve that spear and help out. Then maybe he might've encountered Lois who would've told him that it's down at the bottom of that pool.

That's exactly what I'm saying.

 

[jmc]

I don't even think its subconscious. Not when it comes to Superman, certainly. If Snyder follows Ayn Rand's objectivism philosophy then he must despise the notion of a god-like creature being anything other than something to be questioned and/or feared.

Objectivism is all about celebrating the rational human mind, and rejecting any notion of benign deistic or supernatural influence over the world.

Superman is a thing to be sneered at in Snyder's mind-set, not celebrated.

As an atheist, I tend to see some sense in Rand's philosophy, though it is constructed with a self-aggrandising moral superiority that makes my teeth itch.

However, it's a world view that should never, ever be applied to a superhero narrative, because the intellectual bias against the whole notion of the superhero as force for good is extremely heavy.

That's why it's sad to me WB have allowed this to happen. Real world ideologies can only go so far before it starts to ruin things for superheroes. In real life Superman being around would actually suck because so many people would be against him. But who the hell wants a film built around that? We watch and read these characters because they are suppose to be examples of how we can better ourselves, Superman especially. To strip him of that quality speaks a lot about how Snyder sees superheroes. He sees them as something to destroy, not something to inspire.

For as serious a series as Nolan's movies were even he knew Batman had to mean something, hell he gave the best justification ever for why Bruce created the Bat symbol in the first place. As Bruce Wayne no-one would listen, but as a symbol he would be incorruptible and would be noticed. Each of those film ends on a positive note, although TDK is probably a little more bittersweet because Batman took the fall. That's what Snyder's films have missed.

 

[FunkMiller]

That's why it's sad to me WB have allowed this to happen. Real world ideologies can only go so far before it starts to ruin things for superheroes. In real life Superman being around would actually suck because so many people would be against him. But who the hell wants a film built around that? We watch and read these characters because they are suppose to be examples of how we can better ourselves, Superman especially. To strip him of that quality speaks a lot about how Snyder sees superheroes. He sees them as something to destroy, not something to inspire.

For as serious a series as Nolan's movies were even he knew Batman had to mean something, hell he gave the best justification ever for why Bruce created the Bat symbol in the first place. As Bruce Wayne no-one would listen, but as a symbol he would be incorruptible and would be noticed. Each of those film ends on a positive note, although TDK is probably a little more bittersweet because Batman took the fall. That's what Snyder's films have missed.

Absolutely.

I think Snyder could actually have some really good work in him, if he's funnelled into a genre and narrative that suits his sensibilities. I'd love to see him take on a dark or nihilistic story, where any supernatural or meta-human like characters are the enemy. That's why DotD remake works, as does 300. The villains are the supernatural creatures, not the heroes.

He is totally unsuitable to tell a superhero story though. I think that much has been established with his two forays into the genre that weren't the deliberate deconstruction that Watchmen was.

 

[AnneFan]

I don't agree at all that Snyder's two DC films haven't ended on a positive note.

 

[Dark Raven]

I think the sad thing is that if another director comes along in a few years time and does his own version of JL or even a Batman/Superman movie, and he gets the tone right, it will automatically be seen as the default definitive version and this DC film universe will be brushed aside almost like an elseworld's story. And that might include WW along with that too.

 

[jmc]

Absolutely.

I think Snyder could actually have some really good work in him, if he's funnelled into a genre and narrative that suits his sensibilities. I'd love to see him take on a dark or nihilistic story, where any supernatural or meta-human like characters are the enemy. That's why DotD remake works, as does 300. The villains are the supernatural creatures, not the heroes.

He is totally unsuitable to tell a superhero story though. I think that much has been established with his two forays into the genre that weren't the deliberate deconstruction that Watchmen was.

I think his biggest issue is, and this was evident in Watchmen too, is that he's good at copying bits and pieces of something, but not necessarily good at constructing something that is cohesive as a whole. I genuinely don't think he understands how good narrative works.

 

[metaphysician]

I have to admit that I'm not seeing the allegedly huge problem of people defending this thing. The vibe of this board seems predominantly negative. Most of the folks who liked it have left. Sure, there's a few outliers here and there, but for the most part, this place seems to be the site of a very prolonged autopsy.

There's also some people who make reasonable defenses because they genuinely liked the film and think it's been dealt a raw deal, not because of some slavish commitment.

I think the more irrational defenders primarily existed before the movie came out. The actual product was just sufficiently bad to quiet most of it, like with the Fantastic Four reboot. I certainly recall seeing all the aforementioned Snyder defenses pre-release, or when Man of Steel came out.

 

[metaphysician]

"What Went Wrong w/ Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice?"
Short answer. Nothing.

Long answer. Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooothhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii..........................................................ng.

So, what explains the terrible reviews and cratering box office?

 

[The Joker]

So, what explains the terrible reviews and cratering box office?

Audiences and critics just didn't "get it"

 

[shauner111]

Yeah, Batman should've been the one to do that. He should've shown off some of his tactician abilities and should be trying to find another way to defeat Doomsday while Superman and WW were fighting him with brute strength. At times Batman was just sitting there like a passive observer while the other two showed off their power, because obviously Batman couldn't compete on that same level. But a classic Batman would've disappeared from the battle and would've gone off to find another way to beat the enemy (in this case, going after the spear himself instead of letting Lois do that).

Letting Lois go after the spear is like a man asking a woman with a baby and bags of shopping to hold the door open for him. What was he thinking?

Batman was useless and pathetic during the entire battle. He did two things. He observed the other heroes going after Doomsday, generally staying away from it all. Or he tried dodging the action by flying away from explosions. Bats should have went after the spear and helped Lois before Superman. He would be more useful there, after all he was the one who created the damn thing. He should have brought it to Wonder Woman while Superman held Doomsday in position. Wondy launches the spear into the overgrown Ninja Turtle, as Superman flies off of the monster last second. You have a well written and delivered joke coming from Lois, directed towards the trinity when it's all said and done. It would make the audience breathe and smile after spending over 2 hours brooding. No sad funeral. Just an uplifting, fun ending to show the Justice League form.

 

[matt47]

Batman was useless and pathetic during the entire battle. He did two things. He observed the other heroes going after Doomsday, generally staying away from it all. Or he tried dodging the action by flying away from explosions. Bats should have went after the spear and helped Lois before Superman. He would be more useful there, after all he was the one who created the damn thing. He should have brought it to Wonder Woman while Superman held Doomsday in position. Wondy launches the spear into the overgrown Ninja Turtle, as Superman flies off of the monster last second. You have a well written and delivered joke coming from Lois, directed towards the trinity when it's all said and done. It would make the audience breathe and smile after spending over 2 hours brooding. No sad funeral. Just an uplifting, fun ending to show the Justice League form.

But Batman needs to create the Justice League!! ONLY BATMAN DUHHHHH!

 

[Dark Raven]

Batman was useless and pathetic during the entire battle. He did two things. He observed the other heroes going after Doomsday, generally staying away from it all. Or he tried dodging the action by flying away from explosions. Bats should have went after the spear and helped Lois before Superman. He would be more useful there, after all he was the one who created the damn thing. He should have brought it to Wonder Woman while Superman held Doomsday in position. Wondy launches the spear into the overgrown Ninja Turtle, as Superman flies off of the monster last second. You have a well written and delivered joke coming from Lois, directed towards the trinity when it's all said and done. It would make the audience breathe and smile after spending over 2 hours brooding. No sad funeral. Just an uplifting, fun ending to show the Justice League form.

It almost makes this Batman seem a bit of a coward. He either stays passively to the side watching the more heroic ones taking on Doomsday or he thinks "Yikes! He's trying to get me. Must dodge out of the way!" It's like he was trying to save his own skin the whole time.

Also, is WW immortal? Wouldn't it have been better for her to give Superman the lasso to hold and she could be the one to spear Doomsday since she wouldn't have been weakened by the Kryptonite? Would she have been killed by Doomsday?

They didn't really work as a team properly in the end, making use of their strengths or making up for the others' weaknesses.

 

[shauner111]

It almost makes this Batman seem a bit of a coward. He either stays passively to the side watching the more heroic ones taking on Doomsday or he thinks "Yikes! He's trying to get me. Must dodge out of the way!" It's like he was trying to save his own skin the whole time.

Also, is WW immortal? Wouldn't it have been better for her to give Superman the lasso to hold and she could be the one to spear Doomsday since she wouldn't have been weakened by the Kryptonite? Would she have been killed by Doomsday?

They didn't really work as a team properly in the end, making use of their strengths or making up for the others' weaknesses.

I wanted to write coward in that post. He's a coward the entire movie, after the Man of Steel flashback. He was useless in the final battle, it was borderline embarrassing. I also agree that Superman should have used his strength to hold the lasso while she throws the spear. The entire movie is poorly written, with more simple solutions like these. But Snyder needs Superman to die cuz he doesn't like fun and happiness, he needs Bruce to form the League or he'll look even more useless in this universe.

 

[Dark Raven]

Well I wouldn't say the entire movie. He did go and rescue Martha Kent.

Then this scene was cut out:

Then it was back to "helping" Superman.

 

[Bren]

I don't think he was ever a coward. I just think he wasn't very bright.

 

[Dark Raven]

I don't think he was ever a coward. I just think he wasn't very bright.

Well I don't think he's going to be coming out on top in this thread:

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?p=33467893#post33467893

 

[MadVillainy]

I dont think he was a coward or that he wasn't bright. I think he was smart.
I mean he obviously was outclassed with Doomsday, so he stayed in the back. I think it's better than in JL/JLU (which I love) where Batman will be taking on these superpowered foes that Superman, Wonder Woman, etc. are taking on too.

That being said: a better thing wouldve been to have him be the tactician throughout the fight. Because, if I recall, the fight kinda started and I dont think they ever came up with any strategy. It was just: Attack! But as people on here are saying it could've been cool if Batman went to get the spear or he even used more of his Kryptonite grenades or something.

 

[Clark-Kent]

oh man that was jarring. I still think they should have had Batman going for the spear instead. That way he does more than the grappling part and shooting the grenade.

Batman could have saved Lois, then Superman showed up. All 3 have a discussion on the spear, and then WW defeats Doomsday in the meantime