what would you like to see in season 2 of Wolverine and the X-Men

I just think it would be an interesting topic to bring up, along with certain X-Men expressing jealousy/disdain at the double standard of seeing super-powered types like the Fantastic Four get treated as celebrities while mutants themselves are treated like dirt.

I wouldn't expect the Fantastic Four of all heroes involved in an X-Men show. Their styles clash too much. Around when they were promoting HULK VS., Kyle noted he would love to do an "Avengers vs. X-Men" movie or anything, so if any team would find a way to be shoehorned into W&TXM, especially in Season 2, it would be some of them.

Hulk being the only non-mutant metahuman wouldn't clash with the X-Men too much, since he is usually considered a monster and can't really control himself, either. Again, historically speaking, a Captain America cameo or guest appearance seems to be even money since he always seems to show up in X-Men cartoons (and about half of Spidey's).
 
That doesn't seem to be a good reason NOT to show Fantastic Four on the cartoon if they can.

Unrelated, but Hulk will also be appearing in Invincible Iron Man as well.

I say if they can figure out a way to feasibly fit them in there, then do it.

Dread, you say X-men and FF styles clash too much. I think that's exactly why I would want to see that team up in the show. And maybe FF having to face some harsh realities that mutants have to face while the FF don't have the same troubles of being hated. Not to mention, if Franklin is in there, Franklin could have the mutant angle. That could be reason enough to motivate X-men and FF in the same episode.
 
That doesn't seem to be a good reason NOT to show Fantastic Four on the cartoon if they can.

Unrelated, but Hulk will also be appearing in Invincible Iron Man as well.

I say if they can figure out a way to feasibly fit them in there, then do it.

Dread, you say X-men and FF styles clash too much. I think that's exactly why I would want to see that team up in the show. And maybe FF having to face some harsh realities that mutants have to face while the FF don't have the same troubles of being hated. Not to mention, if Franklin is in there, Franklin could have the mutant angle. That could be reason enough to motivate X-men and FF in the same episode.
I never thought I'd say it, but Vile, you pretty much summed up why I would like to see the FF & X-Men face off.

So Vile, why exactly do you not like the idea of Cyclops dating Emma Frost & Jean dating Logan?
 
I very much like the idea of Emma Frost dating Cyclops. Honestly, the Jean/Logan dynamic does absolutely nothing for me. Much like the Cyclops/Jean dynamic which I've grown tired of. I kind of stopped liking Jean and I don't like all the silliness that happened to her character after the Phoenix sagas.

Part of it is that I just hated X-men 3 so much and that they made Jean/Logan the OTP. A tragic pairing, but I loathed the fact that Logan was the only hero and Logan was the one that had to stop Jean because he loved her. That's wrong.

I just don't think Logan and Jean should be together. That's sort of why at first I thought the show was doing Logan/Rogue, which I totally misinterpreted. I always thought the idea of pairing those two up was fresh and interesting and I wish the comics went for it 100% before (there was some weird kiss moment a few years ago while they were both brainwashed, think Kirk/Uhura from TOS). So I was kind of thinking, OK, Rogue is pissed at Logan because you know she likes Logan and Logan's being Logan. Cool. Again, I totally missed that though.

It just feels like to me that the Logan/Jean/Scott angle which was a benchmark of the universe for so long has become an albatross to me. I liked in X-men Evolution that they never even went a Jean/Logan route. In a way, Logan staying perpetually unattached in that show sort of worked.
 
I would like to see how they explain why Prof. X still has the portable Cerebro device, if the alternate future (with the Sentinels) never happened. I thought that by changing the future, that device was never created. Just a random thought...
 
I say if they can figure out a way to feasibly fit them in there, then do it.

Dread, you say X-men and FF styles clash too much. I think that's exactly why I would want to see that team up in the show. And maybe FF having to face some harsh realities that mutants have to face while the FF don't have the same troubles of being hated. Not to mention, if Franklin is in there, Franklin could have the mutant angle. That could be reason enough to motivate X-men and FF in the same episode.

You do have a point; aside for a brief period in the 1980's, little hay has been made of the fact that Franklin Richards is not only a mutant, but a vastly powerful one; he once destroyed Mephisto for quite a while. One would think one of NY's most popular and media darling heroes having a kid who if he were in a poorer, less known family would merely be "a freak" and privy to hate speeches would be quite a big deal. Unfortunately, while Marvel prides itself on being a cohesive universe, the X-Men for large periods of time, aside for Wolverine, rarely interacted with other titles, beyond token crossovers or brawls.

Cartoons have been hesitant to include non-mutant superhumans into their X-universes. It is worth nothing that only the 90's series has been willing to include aliens as well, thus far. As I noted in prior posts, the TV shows' creative staff may find it distracting to have non-mutant superhumans on an X-Men show, feeling it may either diminish the effect that mutants have on the world or somehow blur the harsh reaction they get; Johnny Storm is a celebrity because he was empowered by space radiation, while Pyro or Magma are considered freaks and hated. I and others usually reasoned that the difference is that for the Marvel citizen, gaining super-powers unnaturally is something like winning the lottery; a random encounter with some radiation or whatever and ANYONE could be one of the Four, or whatnot. Mutants, on the other hand, are born that way and represent the possibility of normal humans being obsolete. The real kicker is the public always "knowing" who is and isn't a mutant in 616, or believing it. Spider-Man is usually lambasted in the media, but outside of Ultimate is rarely confused for a mutant.

There is the possibility of having Reed and Sue and the various members of the Four on the show with Franklin and they don't have super-powers, while he is still a vastly powerful mutant like Tilde. It would be a stretch, but then again, Nitro isn't a mutant in 616 yet he was one in Season 1 and it worked fairly well.

The impression I got from the Hulk episode was that the idea of "creating" genetically bred monsters was one attempt to try to "create" mutants, on another spectrum as the Weapon X people cloning Wolverine to make X-23. But the problem with the Four is once you introduce them into an X-thing, then you have to accept the fact that cosmic radiation exists in this universe, as do all of their goofy enemies like Mole Man. Is the world really begging for Wolverine vs. Mole Man on TV? Things that work in the comics do not always work in the cartoons. The last time any TV cartoon universe was "connected" was in the 90's. The X-Men showed up in Spider-Man's cartoon, Spidey (and Black Panther) had brief cameos in the X-Men show, and in the end of Spidey's show for Secret Wars, naturally the Fan Four and Storm got to team up with Spidey. No real hay was made of all the conflicting types of heroes. In no way did Storm ever bring up the idea that while she was often feared and hated for being a mutant, the Four were celebrity darlings.

On the other hand, both the X-Men and the Fantastic Four are connected to FOX right now (Fox has the rights to both movie wise, and they released the discs of the last FF cartoon). Not that such things matter as much for TV shows, but one could understand corporate not minding such an alliance. Wolverine was of course a member of the loosely assembled "New Fantastic Four" alongside Spider-Man, Ghost Rider, and the Hulk. He scarred half of Thing's face in one fight with the Four and Thing was deformed from it for several years real time.

But, it is possible I am over-thinking it more than a typical kid in the audience, who might just go, "hey, cool." Considering how Kyle & Yost wrote Dr. Doom in the FF animated series, though, I am not looking forward to the notion of seeing Wolverine defeat him with a claw swipe to a computer console somewhere.

I very much like the idea of Emma Frost dating Cyclops. Honestly, the Jean/Logan dynamic does absolutely nothing for me. Much like the Cyclops/Jean dynamic which I've grown tired of. I kind of stopped liking Jean and I don't like all the silliness that happened to her character after the Phoenix sagas.

Part of it is that I just hated X-men 3 so much and that they made Jean/Logan the OTP. A tragic pairing, but I loathed the fact that Logan was the only hero and Logan was the one that had to stop Jean because he loved her. That's wrong.

I just don't think Logan and Jean should be together. That's sort of why at first I thought the show was doing Logan/Rogue, which I totally misinterpreted. I always thought the idea of pairing those two up was fresh and interesting and I wish the comics went for it 100% before (there was some weird kiss moment a few years ago while they were both brainwashed, think Kirk/Uhura from TOS). So I was kind of thinking, OK, Rogue is pissed at Logan because you know she likes Logan and Logan's being Logan. Cool. Again, I totally missed that though.

It just feels like to me that the Logan/Jean/Scott angle which was a benchmark of the universe for so long has become an albatross to me. I liked in X-men Evolution that they never even went a Jean/Logan route. In a way, Logan staying perpetually unattached in that show sort of worked.

I won't argue about losing interest in Jean. I've never cared for her in most depictions. Johnson, Kyle, and Yost, among others, got something out of Jean in EVOLUTION, but beyond that she usually is a rather stock heroine, whose main gimmick is losing control. Part of me also thinks Craig Kyle at least likely finds Frost quite a bit more interesting than Jean; he's all but admitted it in some interviews. Thus, I was frankly surprised they wrote themselves into such a hole at the end of Season 1. I assume it was done to basically make the finale as good as possible, since there was no fore knowledge of a second season being approved, but it certainly makes Season 2 more awkward.

Season 1 had the dilemma of having Cyclops be such a whiney, moping, depressed mess without Jean, yet showed us little of Jean as she was so it was hard to understand why he was so morbidly attached. All we could do is try to see Jean through his eyes, and at best their relationship was co-dependent. Jean was the only one who could get through to the isolated mess that was Scott, and Scott was the only one who made Jean look extroverted by comparison. It was one of the sacrifices of showing the audience little of the set-up of the X-Men beyond fleeting flashbacks before they are blown up and split up. Without that foundation, getting into the characters was difficult. One has to know where a character came from to see where they are going and why this is supposed to be good or bad.

Season 2 thus has the task of trying to fill in the gaps to Jean's character as well as sort of explain why Cyclops isn't leading the X-Men now that he supposedly has the one cog he needed. Assuming of course that my conclusions from Episode 20 are "wrong" as some claim and were not intended to be interpreted that way. Furthermore, if Frost comes back, there is no good way out of Scott/Jean. If Jean is simply sent missing or seemingly dead again, that merely repeats Season 1, almost to the point of parody. They could of course have Cyclops be the one who goes missing, and that is one avenue. Marvel briefly tried that when he seemingly sacrificed himself to stop Apocalypse for "The Twelve" storyline at the end of the 90's. If Scott started to pine for the seemingly deceased Frost in Season 2, it would make him look like more of an insufferable cad since he was practically willing to abandon the X-Men to their fates at every turn because he missed Jean, and now he has her and isn't happy; no one would sympathize with him. He'd seem like those annoying emo goth kids in high school who cut themselves "to feel alive" (who all dress "uniquely" in exactly the same way, often with a lock of hair over mascara colored eyes) and are never satisfied with anything.

Honestly, if Johnson, Kyle & Co. wanted to emulate the comics with Scott/Frost, they played their hand poorly. It's not the easiest nut to crack, figuring out what to do with that dynamic as it stands at the end of Season 1 without rehashing old ground or making Scott seem like more of a wreck than before.

As for Wolverine, I wouldn't have minded some romantic tension for him. In the older comics I liked the idea of Mariko, and despite the Silver Samurai episode hardly being essential to the storyline or the best, I did like that potential. They also introduced the idea of him and Mystique once being lovers, which is odd since in the comics they want to kill each other. Wolverine in cartoons never gets to have a relationship with any woman who isn't out to kill him (in the 90's cartoon, virtually any woman from Logan's past either wanted to kill him, like Silver Fox or Deathstrike, or knew people who wanted to kill him, like Heather Hudson). EVOLUTION was a different beast, with most of the cast being jail-bait. The writers of W&TXM didn't want the Logan/Rogue think interpreted as romantic, but to me it seemed like it was in that middle-ground from the first X-MEN film or two, where one wonders if the line between "mentor" and "crush" is blurred for Rogue. It often can be for teenagers coming across mysterious older men. Where one could interpret it either way. In the comics they made out at least once, but Logan makes out with a lot of women in the comics. Rogue, Storm, Jean, Mystique, etc.

I would like to see how they explain why Prof. X still has the portable Cerebro device, if the alternate future (with the Sentinels) never happened. I thought that by changing the future, that device was never created. Just a random thought...

Welcome to the SHH!

Time travel is a very tricky wicket. Obviously while Wolverine and the X-Men prevented the Master Mold ruled future by happening (by stopping Dark Phoenix, which makes no sense really how the two are connected), it basically resulted in the future being messed up for another reason, with Xavier still in a coma for twenty years. Hopefully more will be explained as Season 2 starts.
 
Time travel is a very tricky wicket. Obviously while Wolverine and the X-Men prevented the Master Mold ruled future by happening (by stopping Dark Phoenix, which makes no sense really how the two are connected), it basically resulted in the future being messed up for another reason, with Xavier still in a coma for twenty years. Hopefully more will be explained as Season 2 starts.

Thanks for the response, however, if the whole 'Master Mold' timeline ceased to exist, then Prof. X would have no knowledge of it. That fact that he did comment on it and said that the situation had gotten worse (with Sinister's Master), is an inconsistency to me. But perhaps the writers are working on an explanation for it. It's one of the best cartoon series I've ever got hooked on, though!
 
I guess I'm in the minority here, as I'm a fan of Jean and want Cyclops and her to stay together. If they make Jean and Logan a couple I will be extremely disappointed in the show. That would be a huge negative.

And yeah, they have some serious s'plaining to do about this new time-line that they created. Hopefully these plotholes are resolved.
 
I very much like the idea of Emma Frost dating Cyclops.
Oh my bad. :o

Honestly, the Jean/Logan dynamic does absolutely nothing for me. Much like the Cyclops/Jean dynamic which I've grown tired of. I kind of stopped liking Jean and I don't like all the silliness that happened to her character after the Phoenix sagas.

Part of it is that I just hated X-men 3 so much and that they made Jean/Logan the OTP. A tragic pairing, but I loathed the fact that Logan was the only hero and Logan was the one that had to stop Jean because he loved her. That's wrong.

I just don't think Logan and Jean should be together.
Ah. Not a fan of the good woman/bad-boy-ish loner?

That's sort of why at first I thought the show was doing Logan/Rogue, which I totally misinterpreted. I always thought the idea of pairing those two up was fresh and interesting and I wish the comics went for it 100% before (there was some weird kiss moment a few years ago while they were both brainwashed, think Kirk/Uhura from TOS). So I was kind of thinking, OK, Rogue is pissed at Logan because you know she likes Logan and Logan's being Logan. Cool. Again, I totally missed that though.
I thought Rogue might have had a crush on Logan, but Logan clearly thought of her as more of a student or, at most, a surrogate daughter/niece/little sister/whatever.

It just feels like to me that the Logan/Jean/Scott angle which was a benchmark of the universe for so long has become an albatross to me. I liked in X-men Evolution that they never even went a Jean/Logan route. In a way, Logan staying perpetually unattached in that show sort of worked.
I'm just glad Logan wasn't a teenager in Evolution. That would have been an abomination against humanity. :hehe:


Mad Ones said:
I guess I'm in the minority here, as I'm a fan of Jean and want Cyclops and her to stay together.
I'm actually still partial to that pairing as well - and wouldn't be surprised if it's brought back in a few years - but part of me also figures they might as well be up to date in animation & do something with the Cyclops/Emma dynamic, even though they've written themselves into a bit of a corner there.
 
..well...they've definitely set the field for an interesting triangle.....
 
I won't argue about losing interest in Jean. I've never cared for her in most depictions. Johnson, Kyle, and Yost, among others, got something out of Jean in EVOLUTION, but beyond that she usually is a rather stock heroine, whose main gimmick is losing control. Part of me also thinks Craig Kyle at least likely finds Frost quite a bit more interesting than Jean; he's all but admitted it in some interviews. Thus, I was frankly surprised they wrote themselves into such a hole at the end of Season 1. I assume it was done to basically make the finale as good as possible, since there was no fore knowledge of a second season being approved, but it certainly makes Season 2 more awkward.

To me its awkwardness that can only lead to GOOD things. I'm totally on board with how they left things at the end of season 1. Why? Emma Frost was given the moment to make the noble heroic sacrifice and proved herself. That was her moment of redemption. Also, her sacrifice which Cyclops was fully aware of and witnessed proves to Cyclops that she was sincere. Cyclops having seen that is validated in trusting Emma and letting her go at first. Also, in seeing that, Cyclops is faced with the reality that connection he had with Emma is real as well. So now you have Cyclops back with Jean having made an emotional connection with another woman. Now I'm not saying this will happen, but one wonders if Cyclops' relationship with a returned Jean will be as close as it was before. LOL, wouldn't it be funny if Cyclops after spending a whole season hung up on and obsessed with Jean would spend season 2 hung up on and missing Emma?

The other thing is that we can in no way rule out a return for Emma. This has happened to Emma before and she came back from it (it wasn't really death anyway. So bring Emma back, and Cyclops is faced with having to deal with Jean AND the fact that the connection he shared with Emma was real and Emma is back in full swing. Or maybe circumstances will dictate that the X-men have to rescue Emma from some sort of malady.

Just ideas really. None of these things will necessarily happen, but I in no way feel this means they dug themselves into a hole or in a corner where Emma is concerned.

Ah. Not a fan of the good woman/bad-boy-ish loner?

I think that's what it is really.
 
Thanks for the response, however, if the whole 'Master Mold' timeline ceased to exist, then Prof. X would have no knowledge of it. That fact that he did comment on it and said that the situation had gotten worse (with Sinister's Master), is an inconsistency to me. But perhaps the writers are working on an explanation for it. It's one of the best cartoon series I've ever got hooked on, though!

In some shows, those involved in time travel, either physically or mentally as Future Xavier was, retain some knowledge of the prior time-stream. In the 1990's X-Men series, Bishop traveled from 2055 to the mid 90's several times to prevent his own terrible future, and every trip seemed to merely change the cause from one thing to another; however, even when Rogue tore off his time-travel bracelet (that allowed him to remain in the past), Bishop would always recall the edits to the time-stream, even when Forge in 2055 would not. Cable, who hailed from 3999 (in which Apocalypse, not Master Mold, now ruled everything), would also retain knowledge of the time stream from his allies in that era.

Heck, even in the BACK TO THE FUTURE trilogy, Marty McFly would retain knowledge of the various time-lines he was involved with, even if he prevented them from fruition. One example was the "future/then present of 1985" where Biff had become a rich casino ganglord through "cheating" with a sports betting guide his future self had given him in the 50's (BTTF 2); another was having gone back to the 50's in the first place and helped his father go from lame schlub to stud father in 1985, and thus preventing Biff's "rise to power" basically.

Frequently in comic book stories, those involved in time travel adventures would recall things they prevented or saw even if their associates who did not have such a journey naturally would have no knowledge.

So, to be fair, there is some basis for this line of writing. I do agree more would have to be explained in Season 2, if only to try to prevent the show from essentially repeating Season 1's plot (which was preventing a dark future via Future X telling Wolverine what to try to prevent in the present). One could argue an easy solution would be to somehow incapacitate Future Xavier very quickly in Season 2 so the X-Men and Wolverine would be unable to rely on his intel this time around.

I guess I'm in the minority here, as I'm a fan of Jean and want Cyclops and her to stay together. If they make Jean and Logan a couple I will be extremely disappointed in the show. That would be a huge negative.

And yeah, they have some serious s'plaining to do about this new time-line that they created. Hopefully these plotholes are resolved.

Hopefully. I am not saying it is impossible to inject some life into Jean; as I noted, I give this writing team credit for doing so with her in EVOLUTION. But, they do have their narrative work cut out for them in Season 2. Not that trying to write a decent show is or should ever be easy.

..well...they've definitely set the field for an interesting triangle.....

To say the least.

To me its awkwardness that can only lead to GOOD things. I'm totally on board with how they left things at the end of season 1. Why? Emma Frost was given the moment to make the noble heroic sacrifice and proved herself. That was her moment of redemption. Also, her sacrifice which Cyclops was fully aware of and witnessed proves to Cyclops that she was sincere. Cyclops having seen that is validated in trusting Emma and letting her go at first. Also, in seeing that, Cyclops is faced with the reality that connection he had with Emma is real as well. So now you have Cyclops back with Jean having made an emotional connection with another woman. Now I'm not saying this will happen, but one wonders if Cyclops' relationship with a returned Jean will be as close as it was before. LOL, wouldn't it be funny if Cyclops after spending a whole season hung up on and obsessed with Jean would spend season 2 hung up on and missing Emma?

The other thing is that we can in no way rule out a return for Emma. This has happened to Emma before and she came back from it (it wasn't really death anyway. So bring Emma back, and Cyclops is faced with having to deal with Jean AND the fact that the connection he shared with Emma was real and Emma is back in full swing. Or maybe circumstances will dictate that the X-men have to rescue Emma from some sort of malady.

Just ideas really. None of these things will necessarily happen, but I in no way feel this means they dug themselves into a hole or in a corner where Emma is concerned.

Ideas are cool. Lord knows I blab on a lot about mine about this show; regardless of any flaws, it at least inspires that. Truly bad or mediocre shows really don't. Even at my harshest, I usually claim that Season 1 was above mediocre.

The problem with the idea of Cyclops pining for Frost as Season 2 opens due to her sacrifice or connection or whatever (although he hardly seemed to notice it much in the finale; he was too busy hugging Jean) is that it would make him seem quite callow, selfish, and completely unable to make up his mind on relationship matters. This wasn't SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN, where Peter being confused between Gwen or Liz was merely great soap opera hay. Scott's obsessive mourning for Jean led to the X-Men being dissolved and often jeopardized the team in general, such as when he all but had to be dragged out to help Storm, or when he would provoke fights with Mr. Sinister (which, ironically, endangered Jean by alerting Sinister of her presence and all but set in motion what may come in Season 2). Scott places Jean above matters of the greater good or the team in nearly every juncture in Season 1, so much so that Xavier all but dismisses him (although to be fair, the ease with which Xavier reached his, "We have to kill Jean or that's that" conclusion is mildly disturbing).

A normal man cheating on his wife with nearly every skirt that gets close to him is not socially dangerous if he is a normal stiff; if he is the President of the United States, that places quite a many things in jeopardy. The point is that someone's position places greater consequences for their actions, however human they may be. Scott Summers was not merely a kid in high school. He was part of a team, and arguably one of it's senior founders. He placed his romantic wishes above everything else every time. It is thus very hard to sympathize with that.

Therefore, the problem of Season 2 is that if Scott is at least happy with Jean, and their relationship not as horribly co-dependent as Episode 20 hinted, at least all of the turmoil, danger, stress, and selfish actions Scott inflicted on the team had some conclusion and returned investment. If he goes through the same team endangering sad-sack phase because he now pines for Frost instead of Jean, it would be very, VERY hard to not have that come off as Scott being a complete cad who doesn't know what he wants and doesn't accept what he has when he has it. Xavier handed him leadership and a "teacher's pet" status merely because Scott was the most NEEDING of it, not because he especially earned it in any way (if anything, I would argue Jean proved herself more than Scott in Episode 20; everyone was whimpering like children in front of Magneto and Jean more or less led Scott by the hand to settle it). That is, of course, assuming episode 20 was intended to be seen in such a way as presented. I could argue Season 2 would be way too late for a flashback going, "Oh, Cyclops didn't completely suck in all those years before Logan showed up", but one supposes better late than never.

Not to mention that Jean being the object of Scott's desire for over a year in 'toon time only to be emotionally ditched for the woman who all but tried to blow her up would certainly devastate her. Again, it is hard to root for a guy who deliberately emotionally cripples some noble heroine. Even SS-M came very close to making Peter Parker unsympathetic, or at least hardly blameless, in how Liz Allen ended up in Season 2. "I held your hand and did everything for you, Scott, and the first time we're together in a year you're pining for that pseudo villainess?" How the heck can Scott respond to that? "Well, at least Frost didn't make me promise not to beat on the horn-dog who clearly has no qualms hitting on women with steady boyfriends?"

I hardly think Season 2 will go very far without the slightest hint that Frost would return. The Phoenix energy was able to rebuild her in the comics, just then it was Jean using it to put all the pieces back together; for all we know, Frost could unconsciously do it herself like Sandman or something. The problem is handling the potential triangle without making Cyclops seem like a total cad for placing the team in jeopardy last season and possibly the second one for his own wishy washy love affairs. There are fans who attach themselves to the team token emo malcontent of a show (many anime series have one), but Cyclops doesn't work as well in that angle. One can easily see why Logan is the leader; he doesn't fall apart over women.

Your conclusion that by Frost proving her nobility in the end that Cyclops was at least vindicated in placing trust in her is a fair point. Season 1 I don't think had Cyclops redeem himself as a hero or X-Man very well, but at the very least his choice to trust Frost when it mattered (or at least until Jean chained Frost to a wall and dragged Scott away) proved fruitful. Wolverine of course wasn't convinced to do same by Scott; but by Future X, repeating a message from Future Logan. But at any rate, the basic point of Scott's trust in someone panning out well reminds me of the Season 1 EVOLUTION episode, "Turn Of The Rogue", which was written by Greg Johnson. It's Episode 7, and Rogue has been manipulated into joining the Brotherhood by Mystique for about three episodes. By this point, even Xavier is assuming Rogue will ultimately be their enemy like Blob or Quicksilver are, and is training the X-Men to have to deal with her in a fight in the danger room. Cyclops disagrees, feeling there is still hope to convince her to join the X-Men and to not abandon that completely. In the end, he is right; Rogue eventually turns on Mystique and joins the X-Men, becoming one of their most important members. She virtually defeats Apocalypse with a mere assist from Wolverine in the series finale, after all. So, if anything, Greg Johnson may think Scott at least is a decent judge of a woman's character. :)
 
The problem with the idea of Cyclops pining for Frost as Season 2 opens due to her sacrifice or connection or whatever (although he hardly seemed to notice it much in the finale; he was too busy hugging Jean) is that it would make him seem quite callow, selfish, and completely unable to make up his mind on relationship matters. This wasn't SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN, where Peter being confused between Gwen or Liz was merely great soap opera hay. Scott's obsessive mourning for Jean led to the X-Men being dissolved and often jeopardized the team in general, such as when he all but had to be dragged out to help Storm, or when he would provoke fights with Mr. Sinister (which, ironically, endangered Jean by alerting Sinister of her presence and all but set in motion what may come in Season 2). Scott places Jean above matters of the greater good or the team in nearly every juncture in Season 1, so much so that Xavier all but dismisses him (although to be fair, the ease with which Xavier reached his, "We have to kill Jean or that's that" conclusion is mildly disturbing).

That doesn't seem much different from the status quo of Cyclops in the comics ;) .

A normal man cheating on his wife with nearly every skirt that gets close to him is not socially dangerous if he is a normal stiff; if he is the President of the United States, that places quite a many things in jeopardy. The point is that someone's position places greater consequences for their actions, however human they may be. Scott Summers was not merely a kid in high school. He was part of a team, and arguably one of it's senior founders. He placed his romantic wishes above everything else every time. It is thus very hard to sympathize with that.

Well, people loved JFK and MLK, ;) . Loving the ladies didn't really tarnish their legacies. Funny thing though, and this is sort of an OT tangent, a very good episode of Red Dwarf had the crew traveling back in time where they prevented JFK's assassination. In doing so, JFK's presidential career was ruined when he was exposed as a womanizing cad with lots of mistresses. JFK was ultimately arrested and going to jail and history was unraveling. So the main character, Lister, offered JFK a chance to "save his legacy" by going back in time with them again and assassinating JFK WITH JFK. So basically they take JFK to Dallas, and JFK ends up being the shooter on the grassy knoll. In this sci-fi story, JFK assassinated himself to save his legacy as President and became the guy on the grassy knoll.

But basically guys are guys. And Cyclops is a guy.

Therefore, the problem of Season 2 is that if Scott is at least happy with Jean, and their relationship not as horribly co-dependent as Episode 20 hinted, at least all of the turmoil, danger, stress, and selfish actions Scott inflicted on the team had some conclusion and returned investment. If he goes through the same team endangering sad-sack phase because he now pines for Frost instead of Jean, it would be very, VERY hard to not have that come off as Scott being a complete cad who doesn't know what he wants and doesn't accept what he has when he has it. Xavier handed him leadership and a "teacher's pet" status merely because Scott was the most NEEDING of it, not because he especially earned it in any way (if anything, I would argue Jean proved herself more than Scott in Episode 20; everyone was whimpering like children in front of Magneto and Jean more or less led Scott by the hand to settle it). That is, of course, assuming episode 20 was intended to be seen in such a way as presented. I could argue Season 2 would be way too late for a flashback going, "Oh, Cyclops didn't completely suck in all those years before Logan showed up", but one supposes better late than never.

I was more suggesting that there could be a deeply hidden sorrow about Emma on Cyclops' part that would be underscored if/when Emma returns where the sparks will exist again.

Also Dread, we are talking about Cyclops, who already was a cad beforehand :D .
 
That doesn't seem much different from the status quo of Cyclops in the comics ;) .

In the comics, Storm was there to pick up the slack from Cyclops' wig outs. He also has led the team without Jean and while still mourning her loss. It isn't the fact that he went through this story tract that has been my concern; it was that I thought the writers went a bit overboard with it. Overplayed the hand.

TheVileOne said:
Well, people loved JFK and MLK, ;) . Loving the ladies didn't really tarnish their legacies. Funny thing though, and this is sort of an OT tangent, a very good episode of Red Dwarf had the crew traveling back in time where they prevented JFK's assassination. In doing so, JFK's presidential career was ruined when he was exposed as a womanizing cad with lots of mistresses. JFK was ultimately arrested and going to jail and history was unraveling. So the main character, Lister, offered JFK a chance to "save his legacy" by going back in time with them again and assassinating JFK WITH JFK. So basically they take JFK to Dallas, and JFK ends up being the shooter on the grassy knoll. In this sci-fi story, JFK assassinated himself to save his legacy as President and became the guy on the grassy knoll.

But basically guys are guys. And Cyclops is a guy.

JFK and MLK Jr. to be honest had the fortune of being part of the "swinging" 60's era where many people were less likely to be critical of "getting down" than in later periods, such as when more conservative influences started taking over into the 1980's. It also took a while before things were publically revealed about both. Mysteries still abound with them. Off topic tangents are forgiven. :)

The thing with fictional stories is they bring some things down to a personal level. Right now Cyclops is someone who jeopardizes everyone in his life if his emotional needs aren't met to a consistent degree. He ranges from barely showing up to missions to abandoning them completely. Scott threw the entire team into turmoil over Jean in Season 1; to do the same in Season 2 over Frost would make him almost a parody, a "Tickle Me Emo" (to those who know the SNL skit). It also would prove Wolverine totally right to Jean about him being the better guy. He honors promises to women he doesn't even remember well. :p

TheVileOne said:
I was more suggesting that there could be a deeply hidden sorrow about Emma on Cyclops' part that would be underscored if/when Emma returns where the sparks will exist again.

Also Dread, we are talking about Cyclops, who already was a cad beforehand :D .

The problem is that if the writers want the audience to sort of sit in anticipation about Cyke sort of "being the hero we all know he can be" as noted in that interview you conducted, they do have to...well, not make Scott the biggest cad in comic book animation. There's being a cad, and then there's taking it to extremes. Cyclops placed his team and the entire world in jeopardy in Season 1 over Jean. If Season 2 comes along and he's STILL not happy and sulking all over the place, he'll just seem like one of those insufferable "emo brats" who you can never please. The problem with being a cad is that it is very hard for most audiences, especially kids, to root for a cad. Least a cad to a considerable degree.

Your idea with it being subtle is a good one. The problem of course is that it also would mean Scott is ignoring Jean when she's finally back, and he's pining for the woman who blew her up who Jean clearly dislikes.

I did say a long time ago in a prior topic that one thing that has rarely been handled well in cartoons is the idea of a relationship coming to a natural conclusion without there being a "destined" lover for some character. SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN had Peter Parker date or be interested in nearly every named female character, but it was obvious from the start that he was "destined" to be with Gwen Stacy. I might note that his shifting attractions placed no one in danger, but I digress. While the Scott/Frost/Jean situation in Season 2 has a solution that is too complicated for many of us unpaid novices to figure out (myself included to be honest), the writers do have a chance to break convention here. They have a chance to try to shirk the "destiny" thing which is, to be honest, rare in real life and try to depict a relationship that runs a course and splits up. Like most do. Unless, of course, the idea of Scott being "destined" for Frost is already in the air. :p

Not everyone liked that in the comics, but W&TXM's Frost is a different beast; she was hardly the villain that she was in the comics for a good long while. While not as squeaky clean as Jean, she was easily the weakest link of the Inner Circle, the most moral and the one who had to be tricked once their end goal changed. She was also the only one who cared about Cyclops, warts and all, at his lowest moment.

Don't get me wrong; I favor Frost over Jean usually. My concern is just how any transition is handled. The writers overdid things a bit with Cyclops and I think Season 2 is the place to sort of reconfigure things and learn from experience. It is a hard thing to resolve without including Wolverine or having Scott deal with Mr. Sinister. I'm usually a know-it-all and even I don't see an easy way out of that situation, which means whatever Kyle, Johnson, and Yost come up with in Season 2 will either be stunning or underwhelming. I am hoping for the former, obviously. Season 1 is behind us and it wasn't perfect, but few shows are at their best in Season 1. If Season 2 blasts out of the park I can quickly forgive a prior season, even if it was 26 episodes.
 
Funny thing though, and this is sort of an OT tangent, a very good episode of Red Dwarf had the crew traveling back in time where they prevented JFK's assassination. In doing so, JFK's presidential career was ruined when he was exposed as a womanizing cad with lots of mistresses. JFK was ultimately arrested and going to jail and history was unraveling. So the main character, Lister, offered JFK a chance to "save his legacy" by going back in time with them again and assassinating JFK WITH JFK. So basically they take JFK to Dallas, and JFK ends up being the shooter on the grassy knoll. In this sci-fi story, JFK assassinated himself to save his legacy as President and became the guy on the grassy knoll.

Still completely off topic, but I LOVE that episode. Yeah, Season 7 wasn't the strongest (though not worthy of its terrible reputation), but Tikka to Ride was excellent!
 
Actually I think that was a season 6 epsiode.

No, it was the Season 7 premiere. The last "just the boys" episode before Rimmer left in Stoke Me A Clipper and Kochanski joined.

Sorry to interrupt this Wolverine and the X-Men conversation with Red Dwarf...:oldrazz:
 
No. It is in production now but NickToons hasn't aired the rest of Season 1 yet so I imagine it is unlikely we see any episodes of Season 2 before 2010.

Things are going in circles with the Scott/Jean/Frost speculation so how about returning to hopefully one that is easier to handle. Johnson's said that they wanted on Colossus in Season 1 because they wanted to do it right and make it a big deal. Irritating as it was for Season 1, overall that is a healthy approach. In EVOLUTION, Colossus technically showed up in 8 episodes, the most he ever has in animation. The problem was those episodes usually amounted to him doing very little. The 90's X-Men series only had him show up twice (within the first two seasons out of five), but they were good, memorable episodes as well as solid action outings for him. The lesson is basically that it is usually better to show up for a few memorable outings than a lot of mundane ones. So if they're going for the former this time around, more power to them. The other factor is in that in various X-Men shows, we have gotten a taste at some point of all of the major relationships in the comics; Scott/Jean, Scott/Jean/envious Logan, Rogue/Gambit, even briefly Angel/Psylocke. No Colossus/Shadowcat, though, and I am curious if that could happen in Season 2. In Season 1, Kitty seems to obviously be into Iceman, but it isn't like they're ordering the china yet.

Colossus and Cyclops are similar characters in some ways. They're both introverted and a bit sensitive, and they both usually need friends and a lover to help them loosen up and have fun. The difference is that Colossus usually has less of a "jerk" streak in him than Cyclops sometimes does. He's a deadbeat father too, but in his defense, Nareel in the Savage Land never outright TOLD him that her son was his; she strongly implied it to the point where only a total ****** couldn't figure it out, but it's hardly abandoning a family in Alaska. "I never told him, but I really, really, REALLY hinted at it hoping he'd catch on" wouldn't hold up in court. And while he was perfectly willing to make out with an underage Kitty in the comics, he never did go all the way like she wanted until it was all legal. He's also an artist in between smashing stuff. The irony is that Logan and Remy get all the rep as being "ladies men", but check out Colossus' spotlight at Uncanny X-Men.net and he's had his share of lovers, too. My point I guess in all this is that if Colossus is written to character, he can offer an interesting dynamic to the team and that his relationship with Kitty was always an important part of both.

Personally I always think it was a shame that Piotr wasn't part of the regular founding X-Kid class in EVOLUTION; that was the first and last show not to be overshadowed by Wolverine and I think the Kitty/Piotr thing really would have been handled well. I believe it can be handled well in W&TXM Season 2 as well, but it also creates a triangle with Iceman (which, to be fair, could be great dramatic fodder as well as a chance to get Iceman some focus) and Kitty's different in this show. She's more spunky and smarmy than she was in Evolution, not quite as "sweet". On the other hand, she isn't a valley girl; here she's more like Kim Possible, without Ron and without being the star. She still steals nearly every scene she is in, in a good way. And has been one of the few X-People who consistently at least wisecracks at Logan when he makes a mistake or does something wrong. She can be nice with Tilde but the bottom line is this Kitty is different from Evo Kitty, which is good or bad depending. W&TXM's version is probably closer to how she was at least by the late 1990's. At any rate, while I always have concerns about handling Cyclops, with the Colossus/Kitty/Iceman thing the time off could actually be an advantage, so long as they handle the reintroduction for the "casual" fan who may only care about Colossus for the visual. Granted, I will say I've seen far more Colossus fans online after he died in 2002. Before that it was like we were a secret robed society.
 
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Maybe the ladies like Colossus because he's usually not as messed up as some of the other guys who populate the X-titles?

BTW, am I the only one here who would like to see Colossus beat up Sabertooth?
 
I wouldn't mind it either; not that Sabretooth should be a physical match for Colossus (I could imagine, if the storyboard crew is up to it, a fight between Colossus vs. Juggernaut or Blob trying to give a JLU bout a run for it's money), but he is a villain with some reputation and it could boost Colossus' "street cred" to the mainstream fan.
 
I wouldn't mind it either; not that Sabretooth should be a physical match for Colossus (I could imagine, if the storyboard crew is up to it, a fight between Colossus vs. Juggernaut or Blob trying to give a JLU bout a run for it's money), but he is a villain with some reputation and it could boost Colossus' "street cred" to the mainstream fan.
This is true. Plus it's just fun to imagine Sabertooth getting beaten up.

The Jean/Scott/Emma speculation is stuck in a bit of a rut, isn't it? I think it's like you've been saying Dread, the only way for Scott to pine for or hook up with a resurrected Emma without turning him into an even bigger bastard than he already is would be for Jean to genuinely fall for Logan - they might as well just go all out and have Jean dumping Scott (in front of the other X-Men no less) and then latch on to Logan's arm. Of course, if Jean turned around and then started giving the resurrected Emma the evil eye for hooking up with Scott after the break up, that would make Jean look like a bit of a bitsch, but then again, why should Jean be perfect? (and I'm saying that as a fan who still has a soft spot for the red haired one)
 
So, the only way to save Scott's character is to totally ruin Jean's? Wow, they have really written these characters into a corner, than. I would absolutely hate it if they did that. Seeing Jean latch on to Logan's arm would almost ruin the show. Wolverine does not need EVERYTHING. Frick, Mystique is already connected to Logan more than Nightcrawler of Rogue!
 
So, the only way to save Scott's character is to totally ruin Jean's? Wow, they have really written these characters into a corner, than. I would absolutely hate it if they did that. Seeing Jean latch on to Logan's arm would almost ruin the show. Wolverine does not need EVERYTHING. Frick, Mystique is already connected to Logan more than Nightcrawler of Rogue!

The easiest solution to this dilemma is to simply not resurrect Emma Frost for the next season. That seems to be the most probable outcome as well seeing as how her storyline already got a resolution (Redemption equals death).

I also recall one of the producers/writers (Greg Johnson I think) saying in an interview he thought Jean was the most interesting character. Since he was obviously not talking about the first season where she was only a blank slate it seems they must be planning to give her a greater spotlight the upcoming season.

Of course, he could always be referring to their plans to make her move on to Wolverine or be a part of a triangle with a resurrected Emma. :woot: This seems very unlikely though.
 
So, the only way to save Scott's character is to totally ruin Jean's? Wow, they have really written these characters into a corner, than. I would absolutely hate it if they did that. Seeing Jean latch on to Logan's arm would almost ruin the show. Wolverine does not need EVERYTHING. Frick, Mystique is already connected to Logan more than Nightcrawler of Rogue!
Believe me Mad Ones, I don't like the idea much either, but I don't know what else to suggest. We all know there's flawed, and then there's flawed beyond repair. I'm setting my expectations low just to be on the safe side.


Back to the Colossus subject, I'd like to add that I'd enjoy watching him go one-on-one with the Hulk but I doubt they'll do another throwaway Hulk guest spot. Or even a not so throwaway guest spot. But I'd settle for watching Colossus whack Gambit, not that I have anything personal against the Cajun.
 

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