The Winter Soldier What you didn't like about Captain America: TWS - Flaws/Critiques

[Webfoot Hero]

I'm actually surprised they didn't make AIM connected to Hydra in TWS, considering you have to wonder where Killian got his initial funding and Hydra still seems to be involved in scientific research.

 

[Heretic]

Yeah. To me, the connection is already there since the people doing Extremis testing in AoS are (unless the writing is really a middle finger to the fans) connected to Hydra.

 

[PacificBoy]

Why does this plot need Hydra, as opposed to it simply being rogue elements within the US government?

I see where you're coming from DA, but if the movie was simply about rogue elements within the US government, it would have been much too American-centric in a movie featuring Captain America. You want to make your comic-book political intrigue palatable to an international audience.

What are the failings of the US that allowed it to be taken over by Hydra? Just some isolated corruption with one or two senators that nobody likes anyway?

My takeaway from the movie was that it isn't isolated and that the fact that US government could have been infiltrated as such is a sign of the times, of compromised ideologies, the Grey & Grey Morality which allows people like Pierce to be swayed to HYDRA's cause. Look at what Fury has done and look at what Pierce has done: only a thin ideological line separates the two.

What are the consequences of the fact that Shield has been completely destroyed? Shouldn't the United States be devastated?

The (fuller) ramifications will be explored in AoU I'm guessing. We only got a hint of it here with Stern's arrest and the congressional hearing at the end.

Contrast to Batman Begins. Does that movie need the league of Shadows? No. However, it's perfectly clear that Gotham was on a collision course with death regardless, and that the League of Shadows was merely accelerating that death and taking advantage of the weaknesses within Gotham.

Nolan's Batverse is a different beast though. Gotham itself is a study in character, and is probably the enduring character throughout the trilogy other than Batman. America and its state of politics isn't, and is a backdrop to a larger tapestry being weaved, the larger Marvel cinematic narrative (aka the Avengers story).

 

[jmc]

I see where you're coming from DA, but if the movie was simply about rogue elements within the US government, it would have been much too American-centric in a movie featuring Captain America. You want to make your comic-book political intrigue palatable to an international audience.

Eh, as a non-American Hydra really doesn't change anything in terms of making it more international. We've been bombarded with movies and TV shows about rogue elements within the US government for decades now, it's nothing really new nor does it deter people from watching said TV show or film. You can replace Hydra with another completely made up organization whether it be some international terrorist group or rogue US agency and not much changes within this film.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Eh, as a non-American Hydra really doesn't change anything in terms of making it more international. We've been bombarded with movies and TV shows about rogue elements within the US government for decades now, it's nothing really new nor does it deter people from watching said TV show or film. You can replace Hydra with another completely made up organization whether it be some international terrorist group or rogue US agency and not much changes within this film.

But, Hydra is an organization straight from the comic. Upon which this film is based. The same group Cap historically has encountered the most. Why wouldn't you use this? Especially when they appeared in the 1st Captain America film, thus continuing Cap's story from the first movie by seeing how Hydra has survived into the modern day. The organization in a way mirror's Captain America in this film, given how they survived WWII and are adjusting to the world we know today. I think Hydra was a much better idea than using random group X.

 

[jmc]

But, Hydra is an organization straight from the comic. Upon which this film is based. The same group Cap historically has encountered the most. Why wouldn't you use this? Especially when they appeared in the 1st Captain America film, thus continuing Cap's story from the first movie by seeing how Hydra has survived into the modern day. The organization in a way mirror's Captain America in this film, given how they survived WWII and are adjusting to the world we know today. I think Hydra was a much better idea than using random group X.

I frankly could care less about whether it's in the comics or not, I'm just saying the shadow organization being Hydra really doesn't mean all that much. It's the same as how SPECTRE was the big bad organization in the early Bond films, it really didn't make any difference because the film's all had primary bad guys.

 

[Heretic]

Whether we care to dwell on it or not, America gave amnesty to some of the most evil of the nazi scientists so they could develop technology for us. It just makes sense to bring that into the world of the movies, which would place many of Hydra's evildoers in America.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I frankly could care less about whether it's in the comics or not, I'm just saying the shadow organization being Hydra really doesn't mean all that much. It's the same as how SPECTRE was the big bad organization in the early Bond films, it really didn't make any difference because the film's all had primary bad guys.

I don't agree with that sentiment. Using Hydra helped tie this film in with the 1st film in the series, and made the MCU all around more connected. Random Group X doesn't carry that weight, nor inherently makes the concept better. Some can say "why did it have to be Hydra" and I counter with why not? Especially when it was tied into the MCU timeline as well as it did?

 

[PacificBoy]

If it was some generic shadowy organization then the movie would have been little more than "Jack Ryan with a shield". HYDRA is Cap's cleary unfinished backstory. And from the fallout in the movie, the MCU's too.

It's awesome how we have to see a cretin like Senator Stern from IM2 in a now more cretinous light.

 

[jmc]

I don't agree with that sentiment. Using Hydra helped tie this film in with the 1st film in the series, and made the MCU all around more connected. Random Group X doesn't carry that weight, nor inherently makes the concept better. Some can say "why did it have to be Hydra" and I counter with why not? Especially when it was tied into the MCU timeline as well as it did?

You don't agree that it objectively could have been a completely different organization?

 

[Webfoot Hero]

You don't agree that it objectively could have been a completely different organization?

It could but then it wouldn't have any established connections with CA or the MCU. Considering this was CA's movie, it should logically deal with a group he has historical connections with.

 

[Spider-Fan]

You don't agree that it objectively could have been a completely different organization?

No because it doesn't advance the story of Captain America the same way Hydra does. As noted, Hydra has history with Captain America on a personal level. One of the chief villains of this movie is his best friend. His best friend was twisted by his arch-enemy years ago, and he didn't even know. This is a far more poetic story than a random organization doing the same thing. Also, Hydra offers many other characters for the future. Zemo, Strucker, Madame Hydra, etc. Much better idea.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

No because it doesn't advance the story of Captain America the same way Hydra does. As noted, Hydra has history with Captain America on a personal level. One of the chief villains is his best friend. His best friend was twisted by his arch-enemy years ago, and he didn't even know. This is a far more poetic story than a random organization doing the same thing. Also, Hydra offers many other characters for the future. Zemo, Strucker, Madame Hydra, etc. Much better idea.

Yep, having Hydra also connect with the Bucky/WS storyline is another reason to use them.

 

[PacificBoy]

Eh, as a non-American Hydra really doesn't change anything in terms of making it more international. We've been bombarded with movies and TV shows about rogue elements within the US government for decades now, it's nothing really new nor does it deter people from watching said TV show or film.

I think it does to an extent. The same reasoning why the first movie's title was shortened to "The First Avenger" in Russia, Ukraine and South Korea applies here.

 

[PacificBoy]

Yep, having Hydra also connect with the Bucky/WS storyline is another reason to use them.

Also, the mid-credit scene would have made little sense without HYDRA's involvement in the movie.

 

[jmc]

No because it doesn't advance the story of Captain America the same way Hydra does. As noted, Hydra has history with Captain America on a personal level. One of the chief villains of this movie is his best friend. His best friend was twisted by his arch-enemy years ago, and he didn't even know. This is a far more poetic story than a random organization doing the same thing. Also, Hydra offers many other characters for the future. Zemo, Strucker, Madame Hydra, etc. Much better idea.

In what way does it specifically being Hydra advance the story? The main crux of the story is a government agency is taken from within by a shadowy organization who have played a part in shaping the world to suit their needs. You can make the argument Bucky could have fallen into the hands of some Russian group during WW2 who then became said organization that infiltrated Shield. It being Hydra is a nice connection to the first film but objectively it's hardly needed. Honestly I don't have a problem with it being Hydra, but the organization that Cap takes on being Hydra is not that important in this film. As I said, it's the same of the early Bond films with SPECTRE, it's not really important that they are the organization behind the bad guys in the respective films.

 

[Heretic]

It's important because we know the name. Changing the name to something like...oh, I dont know...Project Centipede...with no connection to the comics or other movies would immediately make many viewers feel less invested in the story. We've been reading about Hydra our entire lives. We want it to be Hydra.

 

[Spider-Fan]

In what way does it specifically being Hydra advance the story? The main crux of the story is a government agency is taken from within by a shadowy organization who have played a part in shaping the world to suit their needs. You can make the argument Bucky could have fallen into the hands of some Russian group during WW2 who then became said organization that infiltrated Shield. It being Hydra is a nice connection to the first film but objectively it's hardly needed. Honestly I don't have a problem with it being Hydra, but the organization that Cap takes on being Hydra is not that important in this film. As I said, it's the same of the early Bond films with SPECTRE, it's not really important that they are the organization behind the bad guys in the respective films.

Considering Hydra plays a major role in Age of Ultron, yes it does matter. The random group idea doesn't tie into anything nor advance the MCU in a productive way. However, Hydra does.

As for early Bond films, the Bond films built up an eventual meeting between Bloefeld and Bond, so SPECTRE was important also. Otherwise, keeping Bloefeld a mystery and building him up would have been unneccessary. Bad comparison.

 

[jmc]

It's important because we know the name. Changing the name to something like...oh, I dont know...Project Centipede...with no connection to the comics or other movies would immediately make many viewers feel less invested in the story. We've been reading about Hydra our entire lives. We want it to be Hydra.

That's fine, but I'm talking objectively within this film that it doesn't matter whether it is or isn't.

 

[jmc]

Considering Hydra plays a major role in Age of Ultron, yes it does matter. The random group idea doesn't tie into anything nor advance the MCU in a productive way. However, Hydra does.

As for early Bond films, the Bond films built up an eventual meeting between Bloefeld and Bond, so SPECTRE was important also. Otherwise, keeping Bloefeld a mystery and building him up would have been unneccessary. Bad comparison.

I'm not privy to the story of Age of Ultron so I cant comment on that. Regardless, I'm talking specifically about this story in this film. I'm not talking about films 2-3 films from now, I'm talking from an objective perspective about this film.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

That's fine, but I'm talking objectively within this film that it doesn't matter whether it is or isn't.

You could but then you take away a bit of connective tissue that makes the MCU feel fleshed out.

 

[DA_Champion]

I don't agree that using Hydra ties the two films together as the Hydra shown in the first movie is not the same as the Hydra shown in the second movie. In the second movie, Hydra is what the plot demands (sort of), rather than a continuation of Hydra from the first movie.

Hydra in CA:TFA was an organisation of rogue Nazis that eventually amassed greater power than Hitler, due to the fact they had loyal troops and some very competent scientists. As they're shown in the movie, they don't have three heads such that if you cut one off they grow back fine -- they have one head (Red Skull) and one assistant head (Zola). Zola betrays Red Skull because he thinks he's going nuts, Red Skull is killed off (probably), and the body of Hydra is destroyed in an battle scene.

The Hydra shown in the second movie is a completely different organisation.
- In the first movie they are Nazis, and everybody in WWII German elites were German ethnic nationalists, even if they did not support going as far as Hitler. In the second movie, Hydra is run by Americans.
- In the first movie, Hydra is simply the hand of the Red Skull, in the second movie, Hydra is its own organisation and somehow we are to believe it was always independent of the red skull.
- In the first movie, Red Skull wants ultimate power for himself, in the second movie, Hydra is about bringing order to the world.
- In the first movie, Zola became a good guy, in the second movie, he was a mischievous bad guy all along.

Since Hydra in the second movie is a totally different organisation from Hydra in the first movie, using the same name for the shadowy villain does not do a great job of tying the two movies together.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I'm not privy to the story of Age of Ultron so I cant comment on that. Regardless, I'm talking specifically about this story in this film. I'm not talking about films 2-3 films from now, I'm talking from an objective perspective about this film.

And once again, see previous point about the poetic irony that Cap's enemies turned his best friend against him, and that he was effectively working toward their interests when he was operating as a SHIELD agent. Or is poetic irony not thematic enough of a reason? Because, I think that type of stuff IS important. That is a far more emotional punch for Cap to eat than a random group he doesn't know. It is not just Bucky is now his enemy. Bucky is now his enemy and in the hands of the very people they were fighting. 100% more interesting.

 

[DA_Champion]

It's important because we know the name. Changing the name to something like...oh, I dont know...Project Centipede...with no connection to the comics or other movies would immediately make many viewers feel less invested in the story. We've been reading about Hydra our entire lives. We want it to be Hydra.

Quite frankly, who the **** is "we"?

The vast majority of the people watching the movie had not been reading about Hydra their entire lives.

 

[PacificBoy]

I don't agree that using Hydra ties the two films together as the Hydra shown in the first movie is not the same as the Hydra shown in the second movie. In the second movie, Hydra is what the plot demands, rather than a continuation of Hydra from the first movie.

Hydra in CA:TFA was an organisation of rogue Nazis that eventually amassed greater power than Hitler, due to the fact they had loyal troops and some very competent scientists. As they're shown in the movie, they don't have three heads such that if you cut one off they grow back fine -- they have one head (Red Skull) and one assistant head (Zola). Zola betrays Red Skull because he thinks he's going nuts, Red Skull is killed off (probably), and the body of Hydra is destroyed in an battle scene.

The Hydra shown in the second movie is a completely different organisation.
- In the first movie they are Nazis, and everybody in WWII German elites were German ethnic nationalists, even if they did not support going as far as Hitler. In the second movie, Hydra is run by Americans.
- In the first movie, Hydra is simply the hand of the Red Skull, in the second movie, Hydra is its own organisation and somehow we are to believe it was always independent of the red skull.
- In the first movie, Red Skull wants ultimate power for himself, in the second movie, Hydra is about bringing order to the world.
- In the first movie, Zola became a good guy, in the second movie, he was a mischievous bad guy all along.

Since Hydra in the second movie is a totally different organisation from Hydra in the first movie, using the same name for the shadowy villain does not do a great job of tying the two movies together.

Yeah HYDRA then and now is different, but couldn't you say that HYDRA has evolved, just like any good virus (to borrow from your virus analogy), to find a new way to attack host cells?