What you didn't like about Captain America: TWS - Flaws/Critiques

Discussion in 'Captain America: The Winter Soldier' started by speno94, Mar 28, 2014.

  1. AVEITWITHJAMON

    AVEITWITHJAMON Darksider

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    Yep, same, didnt find that scene to be an issue at all, if Cap would had those wings it would have been a different story, but he didnt.
     
  2. Sian

    Sian Registered

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    If I had any issues it was Widow recovering so quickly from her gunshot wound - I wish the movies had stuck to her comic background where she had a similar augmentation to Cap. And I really would have liked to see more of Winter Soldier, but Stan did an amazing job of making him memorable despite his limited screentime. Every time he came on screen I was riveted.

    Minor nitpicks though - overall one of the greatest films ever.
     
  3. Silvermoon

    Silvermoon Made To Be Ruled

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    When they're in the car with Sitwell, she mentions that Insight is launching in 16 hours. We know Insight launched 2 hours early (given the countdown on the screens at the Triskelion). That means there's about 14 hours from when she's injured to when they move against the Triskelion. For me, I don't think she would be completely 100% recovered. At the same time though, given that the doctor was able to save Fury from 3 rounds powerful enough to go through the brick exterior of Cap's apartment building and that he's up and walking around just a few days later (to confront Pierce at the Trisk.), I'm thinking he was able to do a decent enough job of patching her up in that time frame that she could go back in the field.

    That's my view on her injury.
     
  4. BatmanVSuperman

    BatmanVSuperman Gothopolis

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    It is a bit too slow and kinda boring at times. I prefer the first Captain America movie.
     
  5. the5timechamp

    the5timechamp Registered

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    That is the way I feel about all MCU films.. I often see comparisons between Man of Steel and Thor 2. They claim that both films are equally bad/forgettable, yet somehow I disagree. I feel invested in Man of Steel, theres tension, threat and intensity in that movie that I find lacking in Thor and the overall MCU.

    The early parts of Iron-man did have that early level of tension.
     
  6. MakeMinesMarvel

    MakeMinesMarvel Registered

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    That every MCU movie post Avengers has to be this big spectacle battle st the end. I miss the Iron Man vs Iron Monger type finale. TWS vs Cap without all the explosions would have been explosive
     
  7. pr0xyt0xin

    pr0xyt0xin Shaper Savant

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    I'd also point out that might be why she chose the stealth mission over attacking one of the insight helicarriers.
     
  8. Steamteck

    Steamteck Registered

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    Absolutely. I must confess I don't understand the lack of emotional involvement complaints either. It must take a lot to stir these folks emotions is all I can say.
     
  9. 0siris

    0siris Registered

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    1) Taking the Soviet aspect out of the Winter Soldier. His whole identity in the Brubaker arc was connected to the Winter Soldier WWII mythos from the USSR. I know they threw in some mention of Soviet weaponry without any explanation of why.

    2) Reductio ad Hitlerum fallacy. If you don't like something in modern politics (drone warfare, taking shoes off at airports), compare it to Nazism. Blame Nazism. The emergence of National Socialism in 1930s Germany had many factors, but sacrificing freedom for security was hardly the most important factor. The global war on terror, with all its flaws, has nothing to do with the convergence of paganized natural selection, nationalism, and the near universal presumption that state-led economics was the way to go, values inherited from the first World War and the Great Depression. National Socialism had more to do with sacrificing individual identity for community (national) identity, or even freedom for economic security, than personal freedoms for protection against terrorism. Any commentary that compares the modern world to WWII is woefully ignorant, and borderline dangerous, because key global issues on regional political instability and the consequences of global economic integration are muted by bad analogies to WWII. The film basically feeds into "false flag" cognitive assumptions of how the world operates. ISIS? A Hydra I mean NSA plant to get Americans to give up their freedoms! National Socialism is one of the few evils in the world to actually be eradicated, not promoted (on its own tenets) by any institution anywhere...yet apparently its the cause of all that's wrong in the world, with people slamming their fists on the table, "No! Nazism isn't dead! YOU'RE the NAZI because you disagree with ME on THIS political issue!!! I'm so proud of myself for OPPOSING Nazis such as YOU!" It's childish politics, not mature understanding of history, politics (ie, governance), economics, and the momentum of culture.

    3) SHIELD had been infiltrated by Hydra, but Iron Man couldn't have found all that out on the Helicarrier in the Avengers with his little bug? The best spies couldn't figure this out?

    All of this could be fixed with a couple of things:

    A) Hydra is millenia old organization dating to the Ancient Greeks, not decades. It preceded National Socialism and Soviet Socialism, and thus in a sense bigger than both, giving it longevity of relevance. In fact, WWII was a spat between two competing factions of Hydra over control of Europe, giving the similarities between National Socialism and Communism compared to National Socialism and America. The Red Skull merely rediscovered an ancient philosophy on human organization that bound all to the greater good of social order. This removes Reductio ad Hitlerum out of the discussion, and allows for the political issues broached in the film to be discussed on their own merits without "naaaaaaziiii.....NAAAAZZZIII...NAZI!" wishful thinking stigmatization. This also allows for the Soviet origins of the Winter Soldier, and explains the ease which Hydra was able to recoup its own assets after the fall of the Soviet Union. It also softens Alexander Pierce and makes him more realistic, someone adhering to a much older tradition.

    B) Hydra was in the process of infiltrating SHIELD, not having already conquered it basically since WWII. This allows for SHIELD to have still been "good", for the most part, and would have shown why Iron Man and Black Widow couldn't have figured it all out already. This is addition to A) would help explain the mixed signals from prior research into the Winter Soldier. The film basically argues that an institution like SHIELD should never have existed and should never exist, a dubious proposition on two levels: 1) it's an important part of the Marvel mythos, in comics and in the MCU and 2) if SHIELD doesn't exist, then what is there to protect against the destabilization of nation states? Are we to assume that no security is security (Yes, I kinda think that is the point)? Arguing that an entity like Hydra could corrupt something like SHIELD which has expansive powers is one thing, saying something like SHIELD was inherently corrupt in the beginning is a different thing.
     
  10. Visualiza

    Visualiza Jimmy Scrambles

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    I don't necessarily think it's a lot per se, but some folks just respond well to dramatic scenes, regardless of the context or buildup. There's nothing wrong with this in and of itself (everyone has their preferences), but a lot of people either fail to realize or simply can't discern the difference between well conceived, appropriate drama and run-of-the-mill, heavy handed sentimentality. To me, it's similar to the difference between clever, nuanced humor vs overdone slapstick. Both elicit the same response, but one is certainly more indulgent and shallow than the other. I can't help but think of the latter when I see people clamoring for more emotion in movies like TWS, and all I can ask is...where, and in what context? More importantly, which emotions are we talking about here, and are they appropriate for the character(s) in a given moment? How would it serve the story without feeling forced or contrived? Reflecting on TWS, I saw Cap, along with the rest of the cast, display a whole range of emotions, the most prevalent being confusion, doubt, uncertainty, and frustration. I don't see how much more emotional the film could have been unless the intent is to make it more like a soap opera (despair, anger, heartbreak, etc.).

    The movies that draw the most frequent comparisons when it comes to drama/emotion, TASM and MoS, do indeed possess quite a bit of drama, but it's all very flat and superficial, with no rhyme or reason for it in many cases. Those movies rarely, if ever, earn their dramatic moments, they often feel very obligatory and are instead cobbled together and thrown on the screen without a proper buildup. This is why I compare it to slapstick comedy, because when I see a random scene with some character I'm apparently supposed to care about, moping around or bawling his/her eyes out without sufficient context or plot, I picture Will Ferrell just acting like a buffoon in front of a camera for cheap laughs. Both scenarios have about the same amount of thought and effort put into them, but for a lot of people, melodrama and hamfisted emotion somehow elevate a movie, regardless of how appropriate it is. The scene in MoS where Zod was gearing up to roast that family towards the end is a good example of this. Even DoFP, for as excellent and superlative as it was, hammed it up with the melodrama in quite a few scenes ("You poor, poor man; I don't want your FUTURE!!!!"). Sometimes it works...sometimes it doesn't, but I think it's worth considering how certain types of drama fit a particular movie, and at what points as well. I also don't think it's very constructive to suggest "I enjoy and respond well to this, therefore it needs to be in this movie", and it seems like that's what some folks tend to do when they criticize these movies in that respect.
     
  11. Steamteck

    Steamteck Registered

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    Maybe or maybe different things hit different people differently. The MOS and Cap stuff resonated with me very well and seemed to flow with the narrative quite well but DOFP left me very flat and uninvolved relatively speaking and seemed very by the numbers IMO
     
  12. WingedAvenger89

    WingedAvenger89 Registered

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    Fights felt overly choreographed, almost dance like ... not really brutal.
     
  13. mclay18

    mclay18 Registered

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    For me, it was Henry Jackman's theme for Bucky/Winter Soldier. It grated on my nerves every time it was used. It didn't really convey the enigma or mystery of the character, it was annoying.

    I also agree that the action's a tad bit too choreographed. But that was fun to see, especially Steve's tussle with the Hydra agents in the elevator.
     
  14. Slushy

    Slushy Registered

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    Cap's deleted scene from The Avengers not being in this.

    Cap finding Peggy with ease.

    The fight with Batroc should've been longer. It was cut short before it started to get really good.

    Jasper Sitwell being a traitor. I was disappointed by that shocker.

    The Winter Soldier's metal arm should've broke when he punched Cap's shield.

    Alexander Pierce not being The Red Skull.

    Cap's "We just did." line being cut from the very end of the movie.
     
    #939 Slushy, May 4, 2015
    Last edited: May 4, 2015
  15. warhorse78

    warhorse78 Registered

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    How is that an issue? It's obvious, she was one of the people to start up Shield, and Fury or Widow gave him her address or whereabouts.
     
  16. TJByrum

    TJByrum Captain America Fan

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    I have a problem and want to talk about it.

    Doesn't anyone think Cap's final plan was a little stupid? It led to so many unnecessary deaths, and caused so much chaos.

    I kind of think it would have been better for Cap and Falcon to infiltrate the Triskelion, board the docked Helicarriers, and insert the chips. Widow could have taken care of the main launch computer, and Fury could have came in on the chopper, like he did, and took care of Pierce. This way, the Helicarriers would have never launched, and even if they did the chips had already been changed out, and Pierce would have been dealt with, without causing all the unnecessary violence.

    Before anyone says anything, let me explain some points.
    1. Cap, Falcon, and Hill easily infiltrated the comm center at the Triskelion - and Cap was wearing a red, white, and blue uniform. If they could sneak into that comm center that easily, it would not have been that hard to disguise as SHIELD agents and sneak to the Helicarriers.
    2. Widow was able to incapacitate the Council Woman, and I'm pretty sure she had escort so she had to deal with them too. Then she disguised herself as the Council Woman and got right beside Pierce - and even spoke to him. If she can do all of that, it would not be that hard to disguise as a SHIELD agent and get to the main launch computer.
    3. There was plenty of time to do all of this. The launch was still 2+ hours away by the time Rumlow made it into the same room with Agent 13. It wasn't until Cap announced via intercom that Rumlow expedited the launch. So the team had 2+ hours to do everything they needed to do.
     
  17. Boy Scout

    Boy Scout Registered

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    I didn't like that neither Fury nor Widow thought to just ****ing shoot Pierce at the end when he was threatening to blow a hole in the former's sternum. They had two guns pointed at him and just stood there and let him take control of the situation as if they had no other alternative.
     
  18. XtremelyBaneful

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    to piggyback what I said earlier, I feel like they are making cap a little overpowered - is he supposed to be superhuman or a human in peak physical condition? he's done things that I feel like even the most fit human being isn't able to do.

    I didn't enjoy seeing him have the upper hand so much of the time fighting the winter soldier. but overall i did find him more menacing than bane in dkr.
     
  19. TeeKay

    TeeKay Registered

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  20. Whiskey Tango

    Whiskey Tango Registered

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    Nobody can define what 'peak human' means because no one has gotten there yet. Cap performing superhuman feats just means that mankind has the potential to eventually achieve those levels naturally.

    Anyway he seems about right to me.
     
  21. Mechanix

    Mechanix Registered

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    I liked BW's appearance altering gadget.

    I feel like there were lots of times that the gadget could have come in handy…
     
  22. Keehar

    Keehar Registered

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    Yeah would have made sense if Pierce was going to live to see another movie but he ended up dying anyway.
     
  23. Krystal

    Krystal Registered

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    More of a question than a "flaw"........

    In the elevator, Cap notices "suspicious" behavior from a few agents -- one is fumbling with his holster, another is sweating on his forehead and a third Cap looks at the back of his head and sees.....what? a funny haircut (not professional for an agent? Ok.....but that particular dude was the same guy from the mission he just finished on the Lamurian Star -- he was the guy who said, "Did he have a parachute on?"

    So why would Cap look at his hair and think something is up? He would have known that guy doesn't have a typical SHIELD office worker neat haircut.

    I must be missing something.
     
  24. samsnee

    samsnee Ok

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    I think he probably just put two and two together that more and more threatening people were getting on the elevator.
     

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