The Winter Soldier What you didn't like about Captain America: TWS - Flaws/Critiques

[Ms. Marvel]

It's because he wasn't prepared for the grenade launcher.

 

[kedrell]

^That's kinda thin as excuses go but I'll take it. That bit of inconsistency bothered me slightly as well.

 

[Bearcules]

The only thing that bugged me was everyone inspired by Caps speech who tried to help was gunned down and accomplished nothing to help. However that really bugged me.

That technician who stood up to crossbones bought cap the time he needed. Without that guy hundreds of thousands of people would have died.

Not to mention, the speech removed the ambiguity for Steve and Sam about who was good and who was Hydra ("If they're shooting at you, they're bad!"). They could then storm the helicarriers killing dudes left and right guilt free.

OK, that Cap's shield's abilities to absorb/redirect impact seem to change dramatically from movie to movie bugged me a little also. I actually preferred this take over Avengers but consistency would be nice. The again, maybe the grenade launcher really was that much more powerful than Mjolnir or Loki's staff.

I took it as the grenade produced a shock wave that traveled around the shield and hit Steve. THAT is what sent him flying. Cap was not ready for the blast and so a lot of his body was left exposed.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Not to mention, the speech removed the ambiguity for Steve and Sam about who was good and who was Hydra ("If they're shooting at you, they're bad!"). They could then storm the helicarriers killing dudes left and right guilt free.

[YT]EVESMxs4rbA[/YT]

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Um... I guess it was kinda sad that Cap didn't take Peggy for a dance. That wouldve been pretty heartwarming and I doubt they'll rehash it again in a future installment.

I wouldve liked to see more Winter Soldier/a more solid conclusion for the Winter Soldier. But thats the beautiful thing about the MCU. I WILL GET TO SEE IT! :P assuming I live long enough.

Hill needed more to do. Smulders really is good at that role imo.

Rumlow didn't really deserve much of my attention. That line he said to Falcon was so lame I'm glad Sam said "Shut the hell up man."

But idk... theres a reason this was a 9/10 for me. Great flick.

 

[Mikelus]

The movie had too many flaws for my liking: a weak villain, Bucky was underused and had very little dialogue, Hydra was just dumb, they could've killed Fury easily... but because Marvel doesn't want to kill off any of their big characters, of course he wasn't going to die... the story had too many clichés and was very predictable, just another mediocre superhero movie IMO.

And before someone comes with the usual RT crutch:

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith: 80%
Iron Man 3: 78%
Thor: 77%
Superman Returns: 75%

Oscar winning films:
Braveheart: 78%
Gladiator: 76%
A Beautiful Mind: 76%

Yep, mediocre movies with a similar score to Oscar films...

And of course, Cap2 is not as good as Oscar winners Platoon (88%) and
American Beauty (88%).

 

[The Endless]

So you predicted that SHIELD was infiltrated by Hydra all along?

Nick Fury faking his own death is basically his superpower. It's what he does. And it actually made sense to the story, unlike Gordon's in TDK.

Bucky was basically The Terminator. Did you complain that the Terminator didn't have enough development?

 

[Spider-Fan]

The movie had too many flaws for my liking: a weak villain, Bucky was underused and had very little dialogue, Hydra was just dumb, they could've killed Fury easily... but because Marvel doesn't want to kill off any of their big characters, of course he wasn't going to die... the story had too many clichés and was very predictable, just another mediocre superhero movie IMO.

And before someone comes with the usual RT crutch:

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith: 80%
Iron Man 3: 78%
Thor: 77%
Superman Returns: 75%

Oscar winning films:
Braveheart: 78%
Gladiator: 76%
A Beautiful Mind: 76%

Yep, mediocre movies with a similar score to Oscar films...

And of course, Cap2 is not as good as Oscar winners Platoon (88%) and
American Beauty (88%).

Cool story bro.

 

[Dragon]

So you predicted that SHIELD was infiltrated by Hydra all along?

It wasn't predictable, it was silly. It wasn't predictable because it was too far-fetched to consider. and when it was explained it was completely unconvincing.

Nick Fury faking his own death is basically his superpower. It's what he does. And it actually made sense to the story, unlike Gordon's in TDK.

That was predictable. and your rationalization of it is worse. Fury should be an effective, calculating master of espionage. You're telling me that during the street attack he had no hand gun? No grenades to toss at the attackers? No Stark custom made repulsor gun? Once he got to Steve's place he had no body armor?

Bucky was basically The Terminator. Did you complain that the Terminator didn't have enough development?

Bucky IS NOT the Terminator. That's the point. Terminator is a machine, who has no past, no loved ones, no connection to anyone. Bucky has all of those things. But he was used the way Stan used so many fake/robot/illusion Buckys in the 60's. Just a contrivance to screw with Cap and make him less effective in his mission.

 

[The Endless]

It wasn't predictable, it was silly. It wasn't predictable because it was too far-fetched to consider. and when it was explained it was completely unconvincing.

Conspiracies are far fetched, whether they are truthful or not. But the idea of Hydra manipulating world events, assassinating key political figures isn't really that over the top in the universe the film is set in. It's basically asking "what if the CIA and other world security forces are manufacturing terrorist threats and creating conflicts to scare people into willingly giving up their freedoms". To me that is interesting and totally plausible.

After all there is still theories that the CIA assassinated JFK to this day. And who trained and armed the Taliban and Iran? It's taking those ideas and applying them to a more fantastical universe. What is the problem?

That was predictable. and your rationalization of it is worse. Fury should be an effective, calculating master of espionage. You're telling me that during the street attack he had no hand gun? No grenades to toss at the attackers? No Stark custom made repulsor gun? Once he got to Steve's place he had no body armor?

He seemed to do ok in the street attack. Actually, he was ****ing bad ass.

And getting sniped through a concrete wall? No body armour in the world would protect him from a rifle that powerful.

Bucky IS NOT the Terminator. That's the point. Terminator is a machine, who has no past, no loved ones, no connection to anyone. Bucky has all of those things. But he was used the way Stan used so many fake/robot/illusion Buckys in the 60's. Just a contrivance to screw with Cap and make him less effective in his mission.

In this film he was. He started to regain his humanity and memories as the film went on. But if his arc was completely resolved in this film, with him remembering Steve and them becoming best buds again it would have been too rushed.

The role he played in this film was effective.

 

[regnak]

That was predictable. and your rationalization of it is worse. Fury should be an effective, calculating master of espionage. You're telling me that during the street attack he had no hand gun? No grenades to toss at the attackers? No Stark custom made repulsor gun? Once he got to Steve's place he had no body armor?



.

In case you didn't notice that machine gun Fury had was better than a hand gun or grenades. Who says Stark is going to make a custom gun for Fury. Oh and there are bullets that no body armor will stop (like .50 rounds) so Fury might well have had a vest on.

 

[Mikelus]

Nick Fury faking his own death is basically his superpower. It's what he does. And it actually made sense to the story, unlike Gordon's in TDK.

Bucky was basically The Terminator. Did you complain that the Terminator didn't have enough development?

The whole Fury thing was just silly, if the story would've been better written and realistic, a powerful organization like Hydra should've killed him... I don't think anyone would complain about Bucky having more screentime and development.

If TDK (despite its flaws) is vastly superior, is because it is much more than another superhero movie, you know how many consider it a great crime drama. Marvel can do better if they wanted.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

If TDK (despite its flaws) is vastly superior,

It isn't.

If TDK's story "would've been better written and realistic" the Joker's plan wouldn't have relied upon a constant string of unbelievable coincidences.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

The whole Fury thing was just silly, if the story would've been better written and realistic, a powerful organization like Hydra should've killed him... I don't think anyone would complain about Bucky having more screentime and development.

If TDK (despite its flaws) is vastly superior, is because it is much more than another superhero movie, you know how many consider it a great crime drama. Marvel can do better if they wanted.

You're complaints show a lack of knowledge of Bucky/WS own arc through the comics and what the directors intended. WS was following the comic arc of him being a mysterious figure that shows little to no emotion in doing missions. The directors' intentions were to make Bucky's arc go through the next couple movies since that relationship and resolution was too much to stick in with what else they had planned for the movie.

And most people already knew Fury was coming back due to SLJ talking about his contract length, so that complaint is really bunk as well. Plus, having Fury fake his death is another staple of the Marvel comic universe that they've ported over to the MCU.

 

[Mikelus]

You're complaints show a lack of knowledge of Bucky/WS own arc through the comics and what the directors intended. WS was following the comic arc of him being a mysterious figure that shows little to no emotion in doing missions.

You're wrong, I've read the comics, but I expect better from the movies. And again, killing Fury would've shown that not everyone is safe, otherwise it gets too predictable and silly if all the heroes make it.

 

[Dragon]

In case you didn't notice that machine gun Fury had was better than a hand gun or grenades. Who says Stark is going to make a custom gun for Fury. Oh and there are bullets that no body armor will stop (like .50 rounds) so Fury might well have had a vest on.

No it wasn't, which is why I brought it up. There were many instances (Too many in fact) when Fury clearly couldn't use the machine gun because of it's lack of maneuverability. There was at least once or twice when the assassins were in close proximity to him, and a hand gun would have served much better. And during the pursuits, if Fury could toss a grenade at the assassins he would've dispatched them pretty easily. Also, if that "cutter" device worked in seconds to cut through several feet of stone and steel, Fury should've had a hand gun of great power to be at the ready. That whole sequence was poorly constructed.

As for bullets no body armor will stop- we're talking about the world where IRON MAN exists. Even if Stark wouldn't share his tech, Shield should at least have some type of body armor for situations of imminent threats, such as this.

 

[The Endless]

lol not at all. It was an intense chase sequence. One of the best in modern day action films.

Why didn't Joker just shoot out the tires on the van transporting Dent?

 

[regnak]

No it wasn't, which is why I brought it up. There were many instances (Too many in fact) when Fury clearly couldn't use the machine gun because of it's lack of maneuverability. There was at least once or twice when the assassins were in close proximity to him, and a hand gun would have served much better. And during the pursuits, if Fury could toss a grenade at the assassins he would've dispatched them pretty easily. Also, if that "cutter" device worked in seconds to cut through several feet of stone and steel, Fury should've had a hand gun of great power to be at the ready. That whole sequence was poorly constructed.

As for bullets no body armor will stop- we're talking about the world where IRON MAN exists. Even if Stark wouldn't share his tech, Shield should at least have some type of body armor for situations of imminent threats, such as this.

It would be kind of hard for Fury to drive and toss grenades when one of his wrists was broken. The machine gun was better but with a broken wrist he couldn't handle it and drive at the same time.

Prove that Shield has armor that could stop armor piercing bullets otherwise your point has no validity. Hell even some IM tech (like most of the suits in IM3) isn't that durable.

 

[Dragon]

It would be kind of hard for Fury to drive and toss grenades when one of his wrists was broken. The machine gun was better but with a broken wrist he couldn't handle it and drive at the same time.

Seriously? If he could handle a high velocity machine gun, he could easily toss a grenade. It didn't even have to be an accurate toss. Just being in the vicinity of the assassins' vehicles would have blown them away. And it was shown that the truck had auto pilot, so no need to drive and throw.

Prove that Shield has armor that could stop armor piercing bullets otherwise your point has no validity. Hell even some IM tech (like most of the suits in IM3) isn't that durable.

Prove it? You are aware that we're talking about fiction, right?

Here's my point: It's already been established in the various Marvel films that such tech exists. Again, even if Stark doesn't share his- the very fact that it can be made in the MCU, means that Shield could get hold of some type of body armor to protect a prime target like The Director of SHIELD at a time of dire crisis. It need not be as functional as Iron Man's armor, just protective. The President, in real life has a protective bunker. They would have at least something that powerful for Fury, considering all the national security info he possesses.

The fact that none of this was even considered in the film says that either the writers were lazy or incompetent and counting on the audience not being able to keep up.

 

[Dragon]

lol not at all. It was an intense chase sequence. One of the best in modern day action films.

Really? Seemed kind of run of the mill to me. That such a simple direct attack would work on Fury didn't seem very plausible. All of the action in Cap 2 was fun, but not very well thought out. For example- it was cool watching Cap take down a Quinjet. But when you consider how poor its targeting was when Cap was driving directly toward it you have to shave some points from it.

Why didn't Joker just shoot out the tires on the van transporting Dent?

Don't open that can o' worms my friend, because I know TDK was full of plot holes as well.

 

[Spider-Fan]

But, SHIELD didn't want to protect him. They wanted to kill him, and Fury wanted to let them think he did. That involves a little risk.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Seriously? If he could handle a high velocity machine gun, he could easily toss a grenade. It didn't even have to be an accurate toss. Just being in the vicinity of the assassins' vehicles would have blown them away. And it was shown that the truck had auto pilot, so no need to drive and throw.



Prove it? You are aware that we're talking about fiction, right?

Here's my point: It's already been established in the various Marvel films that such tech exists. Again, even if Stark doesn't share his- the very fact that it can be made in the MCU, means that Shield could get hold of some type of body armor to protect a prime target like The Director of SHIELD at a time of dire crisis. It need not be as functional as Iron Man's armor, just protective. The President, in real life has a protective bunker. They would have at least something that powerful for Fury, considering all the national security info he possesses.

The fact that none of this was even considered in the film says that either the writers were lazy or incompetent and counting on the audience not being able to keep up.

Or Fury just doesn't always wear body armor. Any of these points you're bringing up is not being lazy; it's more nitpicking just to do it.

 

[The Endless]

No armour apart from Stark's will stop 50. Cal rounds from a high powered rifle.

 

[regnak]

Seriously? If he could handle a high velocity machine gun, he could easily toss a grenade. It didn't even have to be an accurate toss. Just being in the vicinity of the assassins' vehicles would have blown them away. And it was shown that the truck had auto pilot, so no need to drive and throw.



Prove it? You are aware that we're talking about fiction, right?

Here's my point: It's already been established in the various Marvel films that such tech exists. Again, even if Stark doesn't share his- the very fact that it can be made in the MCU, means that Shield could get hold of some type of body armor to protect a prime target like The Director of SHIELD at a time of dire crisis. It need not be as functional as Iron Man's armor, just protective. The President, in real life has a protective bunker. They would have at least something that powerful for Fury, considering all the national security info he possesses.

The fact that none of this was even considered in the film says that either the writers were lazy or incompetent and counting on the audience not being able to keep up.

Yes prove that Shield has body armor that could stop armor piercing bullets. Because you know that Hydra would be aware of any such armor and issue WS with the appropriate ammo to penetrate it. Otherwise you have no case. His vehicle was very well armored and it was good protection better than any vest they have been shown to have.


You are assuming that Shield has some super armor that fits under his coat but there is no evidence of that. Even in fiction you have to follow some logic. Tony Stark having super body armor does not equal Shield having the same.

 

[Dragon]

But, SHIELD didn't want to protect him. They wanted to kill him, and Fury wanted to let them think he did. That involves a little risk.

Well, again, the very fact that SHIELD could have set Fury up as it did was pretty silly. Hydra having so total a grip on SHIELD was pretty much like writing the Sky is falling.

But I'm saying Fury himself would have had access to protective measures, even outside of SHIELD's reach. As we saw, they couldn't shut his truck down, right? Fury would be planning for situations like nuclear war, electro-magnetic pulse, etc. So a direct hit like they tried would be way down on the list of likely success. Even Fury going to Cap's apartment was pretty dumb, really.