ShadowBoxing said:
Fair enough. I did say "I guarentee" as quantifying my own opinion. But I'll give it to you.
Cool.
It really isn't. It pays people, pays for supplies and various expenses. It wants to minimize those as much as possible.
Fine.
Okay. But seriously, taking fitness advice from someone who doesn't look the part is a very bad idea. If you cannot apply it to your situation (even if life varies) then don't apply it elsewhere.
Gotcha.
You would never find someone at a convention under 18, even if they were 99.9% of the buyers. Conventions are made for extremely die hard and committed fans. These are most definitely the social misanthropes who continue to read comics, but are not the most stable or large audience for them.
For example, go to a Transformers convention, while most people there are 18 plus, they are not the one's buying Transformers and keeping Hasbro alive.
Also I don't know where you live (and don't tell me, those things should be kept quiet here) but at our comic shop, kids are the norm. And the weekend and Christmas time (I worked there briefly...and will still watch over when they go to conventions) are filled with youngsters. I will say this, wednesday is all 18+.
My location is right next to my name! It's no big. Where I'm from, I only see kids enter a comic shop when they either want game cards or manga. I've never seen one pick up an actual Western comic yet. Like I said, I'm not the be-all. But I've simply read many articles from the bigwigs claiming that they wish more "youth" were actually reading comics and fearing for relying too much on the diehards. However, all of their attempts to get in new readers are usually called failures, otherwise Marvel would be bragging up the wazoo with figures.
Youngsters may buy the MERCHANDISE, though. The back-packs, the video games, the toys, movies, maybe even the DTV's. But the actual comics themselves? If they were, why are many in the medium have been so dire for so long? One would think that if Ultimate, say, increased Marvel's "under 18" readership crowd by, say, 30% (I plucked an imaginary figure), Marvel would be BRAGGING about it in that juvenile way Joe Q does.
Ummm well according to quarterlys they've done decent job of attracting new readers with the movies. I can personally attest that movies generally bring in crowds.
Of course they do. But I'm still not convinced that it has directly translated to new readers. Otherwise, wouldn't at least one Spidey or X-book, Ultimate or otherwise, be able to sell at least 500,000 copies? Again, note in the 90's those comics sold MILLIONS of copies. Nowadays a #1 book is lucky if it can crack 375,000 sales. That's better than a few years ago but I would think if we saw an influx of, say, tens of thousands of new young readers (at least), then we'd start to be seeing more steady increases. Instead, Manga has been seeing those increases. That market has continued to climb at a steady rate for a good decade now. Every worthwhile comic shop HAS to have a decent manga aile now, whereas back in 1996 or even in 2000 it was rather rare.
And again, Maybe 60% or more of Marvel's sales come from non-comics items. Youths gobble up everything OTHER than comics, but I just question how "explosive" you see the youth readership of Marvel being. Adult fans tend to pass on the hobby, true (that's how I got into Marvel; my mother had a few subscriptions, plus I was 4 and SPIDER-FRIENDS was on with SMURFS), but what you're claiming doesn't jive with at least a half dozen "woe is us 'cause our fanbase is over 21 and we can't get anyone younger in huge numbers" articles from more "official" sources.
I think here is your main problem, you need to go back and reread everyone's posts. No one here said "completely erase 616" they said merge. That is to say Ultimate and 616 will become one Universe with elements from itself (Think Ultimate Alliance maybe). Where popular Ultimates (like X-Men, Ultimates and Spider-Man) will find themselves mixed with characters similar to popular 616ers (like DareDevil, Luke Cage...possibly Captain America). It would be somewhat like the slew of Year One's, where certain things (that were easy to reproduce) would remain in canon. Like Luke Cage, for example, seems pretty Ultimatized on his own, same with Deadpool. Since neither character really has been Ultimatized in a major way it's easy to have them co-exist in a world with a teenaged Spider-Man or a Ultimatized Government Super Soldier Avengers.
So you are saying AMAZING SPIDER-MAN would cease to exist and USM would be the lone core title? And where are you saying "Ultimate Luke Cage"? Dude, he did NOTHING in Ultimate so far. Most of what's been done with him has been in 616. Ultimate Cage is a guy without a shirt from Millar's DEFENDERS issue of ULTIMATES 2. I get your points on Spidey, X-Men and the Four, but on Cage you're off. Or maybe I misread you again.
I'm not sure a "merge" would really be a great idea. Half the reason DC's continuity IS such a nightmare is because of all of their Crisis merges and omissions and remissions and retcons and so forth. Marvel's not nearly as bad, namely because most of their current universe didn't start until 1961 (with rare exception), whereas DC started in the late 30's and well through the 40's-50's. There are no end of characters from DC whose backstories became a nightmare because of the first Crisis and the second didn't help (like Donna Troy, the Continuity Monster That Walks Like A Woman). And while the "youth" market may be the future, they're FAR more fickle than older crowds. POKEMON's boom has lowered considerably since it's apex a few years ago, same with RUGRATS. Even YU-GI-OH has hit it's peak and may be on the way down. While older readers are their own can of worms, you can at least rely on them for a far more stable period. Again, I just see your 10 year projection as being a little soon and a bit risky.
This is more what the Ultimate Marvel advocates on this thread are talking about. Ultimate becoming dominant. It would be kind of like if John Stewart became the official main Green Lantern because of JLU.
But he didn't. Some would say DC poorly mangled his popularity from JLU. Besides, the Green Lanterns are their own can of worms. Hal fans won't let go, to the point where every mistake he ever made has to be retconned to be someone else's fault. And Kyle & Guy are still hot. The cartoon only had to deal with Stewart as they quickly wrote Kyle into the background.
I've seen prototypes being demostrated. It's kind of like flying cars though, it's pretty impractical.
And not one site online has a story?
Dude, I've seen Time Travel work. I can't show you any proof, but I saw it and you have to believe me. It was pretty, just loud and smelly. Mint was a key incredient.
It does, it's really an excellent selling line. Furthermore, as others point out, it reaches these children in other markets. TV, clothing, figures, logos, videogames (which is huge) and DTVs (and techincally the theatrical movies).
Which I agree to. Again, if these same kids were hitting the comic racks in any significant numbers, wouldn't we be seeing Marvel brag more? All I hear is dire stuff.
fair enough.
I cannot find anything yet, except an article that suggests actually that comics still largely serve a child audience. But that adults now hold a section of readership when they held none before. It gave no stats except to point out that 95% of kids used to read comics.
Very well.
That's largely the motivation for trades.
Also to sell the same story twice, and provide fans a means of catching up. As well as justifying titles that sell poorly monthly but decently in trades. And to break into new areas, like bookstores and libraries.
I was trying to make sense of what you said. My definition of nostalgia in terms of how it affects sales would be that comics need to keep characters recognizable.
Fine, but it has to balance out from just repeating yourself endlessly, forever. Kids love manga, and manga actually ends.
I don't think they are. But I do think Quesada is out to end 616 as we know it, I think that's largely his motivation for making Ultimate.
I thought it was to have his cake and eat it, too. To appeal and sell products to both diehards and either new fans/jaded, unwilling to ever see a Spider-Man who is out of high school and want him to be like Archie Andrews-esque fans at once. On that level he's succeeded greatly. And it is why I don't see why he would jeopardize a current, sure thing for a risky gamble trying to put "all his eggs in one basket".
It doesn't take some grand cabal, all it takes is green lighting certain stories
I still think you are stretching things. When you think like a hammer, everything starts to look like nails.
It's pretty obvious Quesada is painting a 616 very much like "The End" which he marketed years ago. And if you notice it's tied back to Ultimates. Making 616 characters so far from their Ultimate counterparts, that the Ultimate Universe becomes more like the regular Universe.
So "The End" is all canon? Most of them sucked!
I still am not going to think that Joe Q bungles 616 on purpose. That's "magic bullet" territory. Next the aliens can read our minds without tin foil.
It's not some secret plot, it's marketing. He wants his creation to be more successful, so since it competes with the traditional ones...he changes those the most instead. He also seems to feel more creative freedom with 616.
And all Ultimate does it repeat the same stories that 616 did, only is more pretentious, and they have more "modern" allusions which, guess what, will be EQUALLY outdated in 10 years. I'll bet then a "genetic spider" will seem just as hokey as radiation. I mean, a decade ago SNES was big. Now we're onto Wii.
Again I think your missing the point. Ultimate Universe is used to tie into these alternate media outlets. He is going to want what ties in to video games, TV and other media to be at the forefront of the industry. Some even go so far as to say comics will be diminished down to 1950s levels (I seriously don't see this happening). However he will want Ultimate teen Spidey to be the one selling books, not 616, 30 year old married Spidey.
Ultimate is more accessable to alternate markets, point. But I don't see why he would AXE 26 year old Spidey (Marvel would rather organize the deaths of all the first born in NY than EVER EVEN HINT at Spidey or half their characters daring to be 30) if he can sell BOTH at respectable figures.
Both exist now because you cannot just kill off an entire Universe overnight, nor is he going to kill off anything. However eventually he'll want teen Spidey to be our only Spidey. He'll want his popular titles to be his mainstays. Astonishing X-Men is the only book right now more popular than Ultimate. Ultimate is simply going to as you said "merge" taking with it elements from both 616 and Ultimate. To make a Universe much more in line with their other media.
Ultimate X-Men actually has seen a sales decline since Kirkman got on. CW X-MEN outsold it. The others vary from month to month.
It just seems like a backwards idea, rebooting Marvel so no one has any gray in their hair. Then it gets TOO cyclical if Spider-Man is always a teenager, everywhere, forever, and so on. Instead of dealing with issues with characters, it negates them and just starts over.
It probably is carrying a lot of old readers, however it's their future market. Look at their alternate media.
Alternative media will always be different. It appeals to a different audience. The comic readers and the audiences targetted by movies/TV may overlap at times but are not the same. What a 30 year old comic fan likes may not be the same as a 25 year old person who just casually knows some characters and just likes action movies.
Hey I never said I liked her. But she was a Morrison creation, and I have never encounter Xavier's twin sister before, certainly not know of any mention that Xavier was choked in the womb....I'd think I'd remember that.
I didn't like the sudden retcon. Plus, every new development that is inserted into Xavier's life makes him look evil in some way or the other. Plus, well evil twins are best left to soap operas.
No I don't think it's some conspiracy or purposeful muddling. But I think he is trying to move the characters forward, maybe as Question put it to make an MC2 type Universe so that Ultimate can rise to prominance. I mean if Spider-Man's 25 that's one thing, but if he is 35 with a kid and a TV show because he outted himself...that could be a hole nother thing.
Hence why it was a mistake for Spider-Man to out himself.
And if MC2 and Ultimate can seemingly live hand in hand, why not 616 and Ultimate, as they have been doing for, what, 4-5 years now? Again, I just don't see a problem. I see both selling well, I see one good for alternative media and other good for hardcore comic readers, and both of them employing (at times) good talent to do good stories. Why fix what ain't broke?
Most people eqaute me to Cyclops. So I most likely have spoken to Cable and been to the future...but I mean it was and alternate timeline...but then again you can never be too sure.
True, but Cable is more likely to say, "I come from the future so this WILL happen so I'm right. My gun is big. Don't question me, my eye glows. Here's a fact you can't prove because it hasn't happened yet. Here is what will happen but I can't prove it because the person hasn't done it yet. Just trust me."
Plus, I don't know you well enough to believe you'd make out with the woman you cheated on your ex on on your ex's GRAVE. I like Cyke, but that was pure SUPERDICKERY from Morrison there.
Well definitions are important. As you pointed out when I said guarentee you assumed I meant it was 100% true (not where I was going), so in that instance what I said and the words I chose were important. Same thing applies both ways.
I was kidding, relax.
If Quesada cancelled or downsized Ultimates next year or tomorrow or whenever I'd say "gee, I was wrong about that one". But at this point in time I highly doubt my wrongness.
Has any person, ever, agree with their wrongness?
It would not have to be exactly like Crisis, but then again Joe doesn't strike me as overly imaginative.
If not like CRISIS then a merge would be totally without artistic value. Again, I don't see Joe Q meddling with what is working for him.
I have a friend with over 35,000 Marvel comics...trust me backissue bins have enough to fuel any rabid fan if they want to buy them
But if their continuity is negated, why the F to bother?
Take, say, my favorite Spidey story, THE DEATH OF GWEN STACY. If we merge it with Ultimate, it never happened. Gwen Stacy was killed by Carnage, and cloned to become Carnage (MUCH more conveluted than even suggesting she had Osborn kittens, frankly). While I admit that writers have added piles of crap to that 70's stories at times, but negating it altogether isn't the way either. No one would have reason to read it if it didn't matter to the Spider-Man in the books NOW. It would be like a Pre-Crisis DC story. Who bothers to read any of those? The ones DC says, "yeah, that never happened." There's the historical sense, true, but you need to have some history that lasts with these characters, otherwise they become like ARCHIE. Timeless but irrelevant and no real reason to read aside for habit. Nothing that happens lasts so you have no reason to pay attention, or to keep reading.
In ten years most of those readers will most likely be gone. You honestly think people read for the rest of their lives. I rarely meet fathers who read comics, or even store owners who read comics. Jobs and morgages and responsibilities already cut into my comic buying. My bin at my store overflows because I don't show up for months on end.
And I have seen people in their late 40's with their children (bored out of their skulls) going to a con. Just last week I sat next to a businessman, who was at least 50, on the Staten Island Ferry going from Midtown Manhattan. I glanced at what he was reading, and one issue was a BATMAN back issue; the other was an ASM trade (I believe the one with the story with Loki). I am not denying that dropoff happens and that Marvel does need to appeal to youth. Heck, in this topic a reader who is 17 admits that 616 is more accessable to him.
Not really, I don't really give a sh**...it's just a message board.
You wouldn't debate like this and never back down if you didn't care. Posts like this can take an hour.
Cool
Yeah, my sticking point was that I felt that "animating JUDAS CONTRACT without also animating the TITANS up until that point would lose the effect" or that "the last show just did it" but a few months later those agruements are irrelevant if the DTV is good. One could argue with the last TT series, you can have a DTV with characters like Cyborg, Raven, and Starfire and NOT have to explain anything. And, yes, it is geared towards the comic fans solely, but there will be carry-over effect otherwise it won't make money (like how the UA films surely sold to people who weren't big comic fans). But I'm just hungry for mature Western comics that I don't really care about how JC is animated now so long as it is done well and faithfully. Hell, I don't even care about outdated pop references, if any. Call it a period piece. SIN CITY was awesome and it had plenty of lines that, if you just read them, sound cheesy, but it worked. Networks aren't interested in quality cartoons and we need to do everything to get some, and DC following Marvel's lead with DTV's is a good step, and going one better by specifically translating a story (UA was maybe 50% accurate) may up the ante.
