whats so bad about MJ and the romance?

No,I'm talking about your favorite romance from CBMs.

The dull and boring Peter x MJ from Raimi movies.

It was written better because Raimi had a better understanding of the Peter Parker character. Garfield and Stone have better chemistry but the romance itself, like everything else in the new movies were written horribly.
 
I liked the more comic book, supermodel look they gave Kirsten in the screen-tests.

SpiderMan_ScreenTest12.jpg
 
It was written better because Raimi had a better understanding of the Peter Parker character. Garfield and Stone have better chemistry but the romance itself, like everything else in the new movies were written horribly.

Sorry but not, when the romance by itself is considered by a huge consensus of people the best thing about it then it's very clear were you "reasons" come from.

Since you had to bring TASM best thing about it to defend SM worst thing ever, nobody even mentioned the new movies, just you,why? :whatever:
 
MJ from the Raimi was sexist as hell,Kirsten wasn't even playing the MJ everyone knows, even the hair was different but it isn't something that would make the character bad,she served no porpuse on the trilogy besides getting captured, screaming and cheating on Peter.

Totally MJ :whatever:

I wouldn't go that far.

Honestly, Raimi's MJ wasn't any more/ any less "sexist" than Webb's Gwen.
 
I wouldn't go that far.

Honestly, Raimi's MJ wasn't any more/ any less "sexist" than Webb's Gwen.

Really? I don't call seeing such scenes that represent that.

Nothing like that snug shirt on the upside down kiss.

From someone that is a MJ die hard fan I wasn't expecting you to somehow say that MJ from Raimi even is the MJ we used to know.

She has nothing but just nothing from the source material.
 
She has nothing but just nothing from the source material.

I'm not the biggest fan of Raimi's MJ, but even I can't agree with that. There is a several things from the source material in her character;

- Bad family background
- Actress
- Love of Peter's life
- MJ tropes like calling Peter tiger
- Friends with Harry

Really? I don't call seeing such scenes that represent that.

Nothing like that snug shirt on the upside down kiss.

How does that make her sexist?
 
LONG POST BUT PLEASE READ :D

I completely agree. First of all MJ is a very insecure woman('cause of her dad) and every decision she takes is from that mindset. Realize how she always dates men of power or some sort of high status: Flash was the popular guy of HS, Harry was rich, James was rich and somewhat famous, etc. She did it because she was seeking validation from her father and herself.

The reason she fell in love with Peter in the first place is because he is the only one who made her feel worthy beyond her looks which was something completely new for her. Those type of things actually happen in real life.

In Spider-Man 3 she became even more insecure when she was fired(she felt exactly like her father used to make her feel) and Peter was becoming 'successful', she thought Peter might not think her "worthy" anymore which showcased her low self-esteem. You can notice all of this by paying attention to all her scenes, its actually there! lol

I haven't read the comics but from what I've read about her character the only thing that was missing in her character was the "party girl act", MJ is supposed to present herself as a fun, cocky and seductive woman to hide her insecurity and this never came across in the movies unfortunately because that would have made her an extremely compelling character but for the most part the writing of her character and Dunst' performance were really good. In fact she's probably one of the most compelling female characters in superhero movies along with Pepper Potts in Iron Man.

--------------------

Also, I don't get why so many people like Gwen. Other than the fact that she's played by Emma Stone, there is nothing to her as a character. She's smart, hot, humble, nice, etc. But what are her flaws as a person? Yeah she doesn't have any!! Sure everyone would want a woman like that but the thing is, women like that don't exist!!! She's just the love interest of the movie, her only purpose in the movies is to be there to help her man(Peter). The only reason I mention Gwen is because the notion of MJ being a terrible character exists because people think Gwen is a better character and has the better romance which isn't true for the reasons above.
 
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Really? I don't call seeing such scenes that represent that.

Nothing like that snug shirt on the upside down kiss.

From someone that is a MJ die hard fan I wasn't expecting you to somehow say that MJ from Raimi even is the MJ we used to know.

She has nothing but just nothing from the source material.

Apart from a few broad strokes, she wasn't like MJ from the comics, I'll give you that.

Gwen's arc in the TASM series: being used as a "woman in a refrigerator" to service Peter Parker's story could also be argued as being "sexist", which is why I said no more/no less. One sexualized scene does not make the entire three-film portrayal of a female character "sexist".
 
I'm not the biggest fan of Raimi's MJ, but even I can't agree with that. There is a several things from the source material in her character;

- Bad family background
- Actress
- Love of Peter's life
- MJ tropes like calling Peter tiger
- Friends with Harry


How does that make her sexist?

I may had exaggerated but I said that on terms of characterization.

Anyone can be MJ and say the legendary line but fail to bring the character correctly to the big screen,I see Kirsten trying to be MJ,no matter the background or the rest she's given.

Throughout the three films – MJ had to get kidnapped at least once, I actually got sick of it. Goblin kidnapped MJ in SM1, Doc Ock kidnapped MJ in SM2 and Venom kidnapped MJ in SM3… I kind of got sick of it. And in the comic books… MJ is a strong, independent women,

that's the typical "Damsel in Distress" that seems most of superhero movies likes to do most of the time, it's like they can't do anything else with female characters.
 
Simply put, the character was written horribly.

I personally don't think Dunst was miscast at all; she was cast while hot and popular off the "Teen" movies Bring It On, Crazy/Beautiful, Dick, and Drop Dead Gorgeous, and just finished co-hosting one of the most popular MTV movie awards.
So casting was on point.

In terms of how she looked in the movies, first movie is where her wardrobe worked best; however once Dunst got her personal stylists as MJ's stylist for the movies, I felt it was downgraded. Her hair was fine in 1 and perfect in 3; 2 felt like she looked like the stereotypical ginger where the lack of soul ginger jokes come from.

Where they really failed with MJ though, was the writing.

In SM1, she overall started well enough, no big issues really. Just your basic love interest for the hero. Starts off with Flash, they break up, goes to Harry, flirts with Peter, and flirts with Spidey, Harry breaks up with her and then she goes for Peter. Kind of skanky, but she's supposed to be a high school senior with home problems, so there's only the way up to go with her.

IN SM2, ugh, she was such a shrew. Dates JJJ's son, gets fussy with Peter over a play, connects again with Peter, all of a sudden engaged to JJJ's son, tries to creepily reenact the upside down kiss, still tries to see Peter on the side, gets kidnapped, see's Peter is Spidey and then leaves JJJ's son at the altar. Sorry but that is all kinds of sloppy, skanky, hot mess. Being overly hot/cold to Peter, treating JJJ's son like he's nothing and trying to make him kiss like a past flame, and then ditches him for no good reason. She had more than enough time to call off the wedding and could even blame her kidnapping if need be; she's a needy skank here and totally goes downhill in

In SM3, she now knows Peter's situation. Ok cool, but then, feeling ignored and jealous, she starts seeing Harry on the side the same way she saw Peter on the side when she was girlfriend to Harry in SM1 and JJJ's son in SM2. And not just once, but throughout the entire movie, and Harry is not just some guy either, it's Peter's best friend ever, and he's also her ex from high school that wasn't that long ago at the time. And Harry makes her break up with him! I know MJ is not genius level or anything, but no offense, if Spider-Man is your boyfriend, you can tell him what's wrong and work together on how to fix it, not all of a sudden just do what your ex told you to do. And for her to get mad that Peter went on a date after she broke up with him, after all the build up of the first two movies, it's just you can't sympathize for that character when she knowingly caused all of it. Then all Spidey saves her once more and their closest friend, that's so at the heart of their trio dies, they just brush it off literally after his funeral and have their happy ending. I will say, the upside down Spider-Man kiss was an ******* move on Peter's part, but MJ did the same thing as well in SM2, so that's karma. However, that's still not a good reason for MJ to leave the restaurant simply because Gwen happened to be there as well. :o

I know MJ is a free spirit, and she's had her fun as a bachelorette, but when she fully decided to be with Peter, she was devoted. She didn't want to be tied down to anyone, but Peter ended up making her want to be.

Raimi's movies got the entire essence of Mary Jane horribly wrong, and that's why no one likes her or her supposed romance with Peter much.
 
Apart from a few broad strokes, she wasn't like MJ from the comics, I'll give you that.

Gwen's arc in the TASM series: being used as a "woman in a refrigerator" to service Peter Parker's story could also be argued as being "sexist", which is why I said no more/no less. One sexualized scene does not make the entire three-film portrayal of a female character "sexist".

Thank ya.

I deeply disagree with that but here isn't the place to talk about ASM movies but if you want to discuss we can go somewhere else to talk.
 
LONG POST BUT PLEASE READ :D

I completely agree. First of all MJ is a very insecure woman('cause of her dad) and every decision she takes is from that mindset. Realize how she always dates men of power or some sort of high status: Flash was the popular guy of HS, Harry was rich, James was rich and somewhat famous, etc. She did it because she was seeking validation from her father and herself.

The reason she fell in love with Peter in the first place is because he is the only one who made her feel worthy beyond her looks which was something completely new for her. Those type of things actually happen in real life.

In Spider-Man 3 she became even more insecure when she was fired(she felt exactly like her father used to make her feel) and Peter was becoming 'successful', she thought Peter might not think her "worthy" anymore which showcased her low self-esteem. You can notice all of this by paying attention to all her scenes, its actually there! lol

I haven't read the comics but from what I've read about her character the only thing that was missing in her character was the "party girl act", MJ is supposed to present herself as a fun, cocky and seductive woman to hide her insecurity and this never came across in the movies unfortunately because that would have made her an extremely compelling character but for the most part the writing of her character and Dunst' performance were really good. In fact she's probably one of the most compelling female characters in superhero movies along with Pepper Potts in Iron Man.

--------------------

Also, I don't get why so many people like Gwen. Other than the fact that she's played by Emma Stone, there is nothing to her as a character. She's smart, hot, humble, nice, etc. But what are her flaws as a person? Yeah she doesn't have any!! Sure everyone would want a woman like that but the thing is, women like that don't exist!!! She's just the love interest of the movie, her only purpose in the movies is to be there to help her man(Peter). The only reason I mention Gwen is because the notion of MJ being a terrible character exists because people think Gwen is a better character and has the better romance which isn't true for the reasons above.

Bravo :up:

I may had exaggerated but I said that on terms of characterization.

Anyone can be MJ and say the legendary line but fail to bring the character correctly to the big screen,I see Kirsten trying to be MJ,no matter the background or the rest she's given.

That's a different complaint you're making. You said there was literally nothing from the comics in her character, when there was several key MJ traits in her character. Whether she felt like MJ to you or not is not the point. There was comic book traits in her character. That's a fact, not an opinion.

Throughout the three films – MJ had to get kidnapped at least once, I actually got sick of it. Goblin kidnapped MJ in SM1, Doc Ock kidnapped MJ in SM2 and Venom kidnapped MJ in SM3… I kind of got sick of it. And in the comic books… MJ is a strong, independent women

You have any idea how many times MJ has been kidnapped or put in danger? I will agree that by the third movie MJ being kidnapped was so redundant and repetitive and I wish they'd gone with it being Gwen like originally planned.

But MJ has very much been a target of villains MANY times in the comics. Raimi did not falter on that score.
 
Simply put, the character was written horribly.

I personally don't think Dunst was miscast at all; she was cast while hot and popular off the "Teen" movies Bring It On, Crazy/Beautiful, Dick, and Drop Dead Gorgeous, and just finished co-hosting one of the most popular MTV movie awards.
So casting was on point.

In terms of how she looked in the movies, first movie is where her wardrobe worked best; however once Dunst got her personal stylists as MJ's stylist for the movies, I felt it was downgraded. Her hair was fine in 1 and perfect in 3; 2 felt like she looked like the stereotypical ginger where the lack of soul ginger jokes come from.

Where they really failed with MJ though, was the writing.

In SM1, she overall started well enough, no big issues really. Just your basic love interest for the hero. Starts off with Flash, they break up, goes to Harry, flirts with Peter, and flirts with Spidey, Harry breaks up with her and then she goes for Peter. Kind of skanky, but she's supposed to be a high school senior with home problems, so there's only the way up to go with her.

IN SM2, ugh, she was such a shrew. Dates JJJ's son, gets fussy with Peter over a play, connects again with Peter, all of a sudden engaged to JJJ's son, tries to creepily reenact the upside down kiss, still tries to see Peter on the side, gets kidnapped, see's Peter is Spidey and then leaves JJJ's son at the altar. Sorry but that is all kinds of sloppy, skanky, hot mess. Being overly hot/cold to Peter, treating JJJ's son like he's nothing and trying to make him kiss like a past flame, and then ditches him for no good reason. She had more than enough time to call off the wedding and could even blame her kidnapping if need be; she's a needy skank here and totally goes downhill in

In SM3, she now knows Peter's situation. Ok cool, but then, feeling ignored and jealous, she starts seeing Harry on the side the same way she saw Peter on the side when she was girlfriend to Harry in SM1 and JJJ's son in SM2. And not just once, but throughout the entire movie, and Harry is not just some guy either, it's Peter's best friend ever, and he's also her ex from high school that wasn't that long ago at the time. And Harry makes her break up with him! I know MJ is not genius level or anything, but no offense, if Spider-Man is your boyfriend, you can tell him what's wrong and work together on how to fix it, not all of a sudden just do what your ex told you to do. And for her to get mad that Peter went on a date after she broke up with him, after all the build up of the first two movies, it's just you can't sympathize for that character when she knowingly caused all of it. Then all Spidey saves her once more and their closest friend, that's so at the heart of their trio dies, they just brush it off literally after his funeral and have their happy ending. I will say, the upside down Spider-Man kiss was an ******* move on Peter's part, but MJ did the same thing as well in SM2, so that's karma. However, that's still not a good reason for MJ to leave the restaurant simply because Gwen happened to be there as well. :o

I know MJ is a free spirit, and she's had her fun as a bachelorette, but when she fully decided to be with Peter, she was devoted. She didn't want to be tied down to anyone, but Peter ended up making her want to be.

Raimi's movies got the entire essence of Mary Jane horribly wrong, and that's why no one likes her or her supposed romance with Peter much.

Perfectly :up:
 
Oooooooo

I'm surprised.

-She failed as ever.
-Tickled him.

God forbid, a woman ended up failing to beat a supervillain. But it did prove your point as her not being a strong independent woman as false
 
God forbid, a woman ended up failing to beat a supervillain. But it did prove your point as her not being a strong independent woman as false

The day one of Spidey's love interests (save for Black Cat) takes out a super villain is the day the movies have well and truly jumped the shark.
 
That's a different complaint you're making. You said there was literally nothing from the comics in her character, when there was several key MJ traits in her character. Whether she felt like MJ to you or not is not the point. There was comic book traits in her character. That's a fact, not an opinion.





You have any idea how many times MJ has been kidnapped or put in danger? I will agree that by the third movie MJ being kidnapped was so redundant and repetitive and I wish they'd gone with it being Gwen like originally planned.

But MJ has very much been a target of villains MANY times in the comics. Raimi did not falter on that score.


And I'm not contesting but her character mentality PR whatever you like to call isn't anywhere close to MJ from the comics,I'm not saying she MUST be straight from the source material but at least the essence which on this case wasn't made justice.

Joker, there's many things that happened on the comics, everyone single of them bust be brought to the screens and be repeated over and over again? She can be captured once but that shouldn't be a normal thing, you wanted SM4 MJ to be captured again because it happened on the comics so many times? If you do I will deeply disagree with that but respecting it.
 
Simply put, the character was written horribly.

I personally don't think Dunst was miscast at all; she was cast while hot and popular off the "Teen" movies Bring It On, Crazy/Beautiful, Dick, and Drop Dead Gorgeous, and just finished co-hosting one of the most popular MTV movie awards.
So casting was on point.

In terms of how she looked in the movies, first movie is where her wardrobe worked best; however once Dunst got her personal stylists as MJ's stylist for the movies, I felt it was downgraded. Her hair was fine in 1 and perfect in 3; 2 felt like she looked like the stereotypical ginger where the lack of soul ginger jokes come from.

Where they really failed with MJ though, was the writing.

In SM1, she overall started well enough, no big issues really. Just your basic love interest for the hero. Starts off with Flash, they break up, goes to Harry, flirts with Peter, and flirts with Spidey, Harry breaks up with her and then she goes for Peter. Kind of skanky, but she's supposed to be a high school senior with home problems, so there's only the way up to go with her.

IN SM2, ugh, she was such a shrew. Dates JJJ's son, gets fussy with Peter over a play, connects again with Peter, all of a sudden engaged to JJJ's son, tries to creepily reenact the upside down kiss, still tries to see Peter on the side, gets kidnapped, see's Peter is Spidey and then leaves JJJ's son at the altar. Sorry but that is all kinds of sloppy, skanky, hot mess. Being overly hot/cold to Peter, treating JJJ's son like he's nothing and trying to make him kiss like a past flame, and then ditches him for no good reason. She had more than enough time to call off the wedding and could even blame her kidnapping if need be; she's a needy skank here and totally goes downhill in

In SM3, she now knows Peter's situation. Ok cool, but then, feeling ignored and jealous, she starts seeing Harry on the side the same way she saw Peter on the side when she was girlfriend to Harry in SM1 and JJJ's son in SM2. And not just once, but throughout the entire movie, and Harry is not just some guy either, it's Peter's best friend ever, and he's also her ex from high school that wasn't that long ago at the time. And Harry makes her break up with him! I know MJ is not genius level or anything, but no offense, if Spider-Man is your boyfriend, you can tell him what's wrong and work together on how to fix it, not all of a sudden just do what your ex told you to do. And for her to get mad that Peter went on a date after she broke up with him, after all the build up of the first two movies, it's just you can't sympathize for that character when she knowingly caused all of it. Then all Spidey saves her once more and their closest friend, that's so at the heart of their trio dies, they just brush it off literally after his funeral and have their happy ending. I will say, the upside down Spider-Man kiss was an ******* move on Peter's part, but MJ did the same thing as well in SM2, so that's karma. However, that's still not a good reason for MJ to leave the restaurant simply because Gwen happened to be there as well. :o

I know MJ is a free spirit, and she's had her fun as a bachelorette, but when she fully decided to be with Peter, she was devoted. She didn't want to be tied down to anyone, but Peter ended up making her want to be.

Raimi's movies got the entire essence of Mary Jane horribly wrong, and that's why no one likes her or her supposed romance with Peter much.

Succinctly summed up my problems with MJ in this post, great write up :)

I think the most gallling thing is that dunst and macguire didn't have that much chemistry! I didn't really believe they loved each other (mj and peter) and the writing/portrayal of MJ sealed it for me.

Weakest part of the trilogy, but it has its moments, and it's only the extent of the films quality that make this part stick out.
 
God forbid, a woman ended up failing to beat a supervillain. But it did prove your point as her not being a strong independent woman as false

Beating someone doesn't make a woman like that,that wasn't my point but that she's just there to be kidnapped while adding tension to the finale over and over again.
 
Joker, there's many things that happened on the comics, everyone single of them bust be brought to the screens and be repeated over and over again? She can be captured once but that shouldn't be a normal thing, you wanted SM4 MJ to be captured again because it happened on the comics so many times? If you do I will deeply disagree with that but respecting it.

Again that was not your original complaint. You said MJ was a strong independent woman and so that means she wouldn't be kidnapped that often by villains. I factually corrected you on that. Being strong and independent doesn't make her immune from super villains and danger in general. She's been abducted and saved more than any other Spidey love interest.

I said that I agree that by movie 3 her being abducted got redundant. It worked for 1 and 2 because each one served a purpose for the story, especially in 2 when she learned his secret identity. But in 3 it did nothing. Just gave her a chance to be there when Harry died.

But your complaint about her being abducted because she's strong and independent being wrong somehow, no you're wrong there. It doesn't make any difference.
 
Yeah, I'll say MJ did what she could in terms of trying to defend herself in her kidnappings. The strong independent woman complaint has no merit to me.
 
Again that was not your original complaint. You said MJ was a strong independent woman and so that means she wouldn't be kidnapped that often by villains. I factually corrected you on that. Being strong and independent doesn't make her immune from super villains and danger in general. She's been abducted and saved more than any other Spidey love interest.

I said that I agree that by movie 3 her being abducted got redundant. It worked for 1 and 2 because each one served a purpose for the story, especially in 2 when she learned his secret identity. But in 3 it did nothing. Just gave her a chance to be there when Harry died.

But your complaint about her being abducted because she's strong and independent being wrong somehow, no you're wrong there. It doesn't make any difference.

I don't know if that was a typoo or I accidentally expressede wrong but she's isn't anything like a strong and independent woman on my view but the contrary,she's empty,don't bring anything interesting to the movies besides adding drama and tension,of course that's my opinion and I won't state it like a fact because i don't see it as my right.

Oh.just to make it clear if someone misunderstood me,a female character doesn't need to help a hero to make her interesting and again strong and independent.
 
I don't know if that was a typoo or I accidentally expressede wrong but she's isn't anything like a strong and independent woman on my view but the contrary,she's empty,don't bring anything interesting to the movies besides adding drama and tension,of course that's my opinion and I won't state it like a fact because i don't see it as my right.

Oh.just to make it clear if someone misunderstood me,a female character doesn't need to help a hero to make her interesting and again strong and independent.

You really seem to flip-flop a lot.

Once you get proven wrong on something, you seem to try to turn it into something we didn't understand and how we didn't get what you were implying. It would be understandable if it happened once, but it seems to happen a lot.
 

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